CARET/Drones Debunked? – A “viral” fantasy

Originally posted by Outrageo
For me, the challenge is ripping the mask off this thing BEFORE it all goes down...

The alien puzzles on Isaac's site are somewhat interesting, or perhaps they would be if I was a bit more into cryptography, but the "meta-puzzle" that when solved will reveal who is doing this and why is personally more interesting to me.

On a completely paranoid/conspiracy note... It just goes to show you. Never do anything on the radio, TV or Internet! All it takes is a few bored people to track you down, and before long, they'll know who you are, where you are, what kind of cereal you eat in the morning, and what porn sites you frequent.

Box ian's original possibilities, distilled to over 100 proof. His words were better. This shorthand is to save space.

1. Fun & Ego
2. Psycho
3. Real
4. Disinfo
5. Preparation
7. Experimental
8. ET
9. Angry bad boy
10. Trust fund babyholic

In order to pare the list I am going to be completely dictatorial and declare some of these DOA.

2. Psycho. You're voted off the island. It's arbitrary--just leave.
3. Real. Not. Goto the other thread. Bye bye.
8. ET. Pooh. This is a manmade hoax.
9. Angry bad boy. So how does this help passify your anger?
10. Babyholic. Nah, you don't have the energy.

Speaking of energy, this has taken quite a bit. That has me thinking "team." I also think "team" because of the skill sets involved. You've got graphics, lingusitics, fiction writing style, and the whole "package contents." Could the Ranaissance man do this? I suppose so, but you'd have to quit your day job to afford the time to do it.

1. Fun & Ego. I think this is still in the running. One English class I know of had the sole purpose of getting as many letters into Dear Abby as possible. My favorite was the guy who was very well mannered, treated his wife well, but had one flaw. When eating at a restaurant he always ordered a martini with seven olives. If he didn't get it he would storm angrily out of the restaurant. If he did, he would take each olive in turn and sniff the juice up into his nose. What's a wife to do? Well, Abby printed it--more than once.

4. Disinfo. Okay, but we have plenty of bodies to go around. It's popular, but not to the point of addiction of all sentients. Lots have already wandered off. It's too cryptic to be good disinfo, like Serpo was, when the 'meme' was obvious. Secret mission space travel. Whoooweee! So I'm thinking unlikely because it's just not very good.

5. Preparation. Okay, but this is far far different than we've ever had before. If whatever they are preparing us for is "like the Drones" then we've been so far off base for sixty years that one wonders what all the fuss was about.

7. Experiment. Watch the memes spread kind of deal. See the reaction. I think this is a pretty good one, actually, though I don't see the purpose. With Serpo the idea was to trace leaks by giving parts of the story to several people and see what parts surfaced, thus identifying your traitor. That doesn't appear to be the case here. besides, we've got more than e-mailed stories; we've got pics, diagrams, and lots of cool stuff. But what's the point? Surely it's not a surprise that if you tell a cool story, it spreads. ADDED: Of course DARPA types like to play 'what if?' Most people think DARPA is a big department doing experiments. It's not. It's just a few guys thinking up stuff and farming out grants to see what happens, so this is not out of the realm of possibility, whether government or academic.

Number one is fun & ego. The rest are serious, not for fun scenarios. At this point I sure wish we had some more data. But I do think this is being monitored. The story changes depending on what we say. The lightweight drones changed to heavy artillery because of complaints. the nature of the characters changed when we exhausted all possibilities. Hmmm. Still churning.

[edit on 7/27/2007 by schuyler]

Yes, Sir Schuyler - I think you're beginning to see this more clearly (and thanks BTW, my own eyes are watering and weary from scrounging through terrabytes looking for answers).

I'm leaning more toward Door #10 ( er, your #7), Experiment- though really a hybrid of sorts. Your indulgence, please: In another thread (one of those that degenerated to a nauseating "my CGI expertise is better than yours!" deals), I posted a line of thinking that went something like this: the perpetrators are weaving a story ut nos narro -as we speak. Whether the 'meme' (geez - even I'm getting sick of the term") motivator is a movie, book, or simply a MySpace/blog, we'll have to admit that there is a hell of-a-lot of material here on ATS alone - like what - THOUSANDS of pages?.

Anyway - I agree the other possibilities you've tossed aside are arguably out of the running. The ones remaining? I Dunno...


[edit on 7/28/2007 by Outrageo]

Greetings and Salutations
Some fabulous reading and congratulations on the find with the radio and potential hacker connection..on following the chinese connection ifound a hilarious piece of data. Please do not jump to conclusion. this is just entertainment

@proceedings[DBLP:conf/isaac/1994,
editor = [Ding-Zhu Du and
Xiang-Sun Zhang],
title = [Algorithms and Computation, 5th International Symposium,
ISAAC '94, Beijing, P. R. China, August 25-27, 1994, Proceedings],
booktitle = [ISAAC],
publisher = [Springer],
series = [Lecture Notes in Computer Science],
volume = [834],
year = [1994],
isbn = [3-540-58325-4],


The ATS COO has a lot of explaining to do.
anyway I hope that gives you a chuckle..

Now on a more serious note as I use a lot of serendipity I wondered what Nick Pope the famed British Ufologist who has a website had to say. I could find no reference on his website about this. I may have missed it and will go back later. But I found this on viral marketing and his having consulted on it.

Nice find! Outrego

I have thought all along that this entire 'meme' involving drones and the Caret documents has been some sort of experiment/analysis of the phenomena of the drone craze. I doubt that the analysis provided in the pdf was created by the same people who may have created the 'meme' itself, but actually someone who is on the bandwagon.

My question to all of you, if this is someone who saw a 'meme' ripe for analysis, isn't it more than likely that someone created the 'meme' with the intent to watch how the 'meme' is analized by the general public by someone? It seems to me like a mild "War of the Worlds" broadcast homage, and then once it takes hold within the population to be studied where it goes. And the phenomena of the 'meme' is so strong, that the mainstream catches wind of it, but not the actual event, but the penomena of the 'meme'

I realize that many of you out there choose to believe other opinions about the Caret/Drones "meme" than myself, but I have felt that the various stages and steps that we have travelled have often been a series of circles all in a row, sometimes taking two steps forward, and one step back. I have felt that it was almost like the ATS community was rapid fire with new facts or ideas, that the next batch was there to try to touch on points we were making here. Almost like the 'meme' or 'campaign' was shifting to try to keep us engrossed.

It is human nature to want to see something that isn't there. To see faces in wood grain, or patterns in the bible texts, or whatever we can find to pique our curiousity. Perhaps its the way we as a community feed the 'meme' by taking another's ideas and rethinking your own, and vice versa. The beauty of a site like ATS is that our minds can work like cell based supercomputers networked together, but in the case of the "Caret/Drone" 'meme', our fervor over the truth often resulted in repeating facts over and over, and the lack of perspective that we never know the 'truth' regarding these.

Perhaps the desire to label this whole escapade would be so that we can put to bed the questions surrounding the mystery. Well, done, case solved... I personally have caught some flack from my fiance for logging on as much as I have surrounding this issue. The idea that this had to be a hoax of some sort is what actually brought me to the site. All the extra information here is what got me in trouble, although having a place where some of my most outlandish theories pale in comparison to those of others is quite nice.


I know that many others joined here as well as a result of this 'meme'. Perhaps the "Illuminati of ATS" crafted this hoax to draw i more people like myself. They placed the photos links with their contacts in the "business" and are letting the ad dollars roll in from all the new members. There was a while that 'Transformers Viral' typed into google brought up ATS pages like 3 in the top 5.... I am not really saying ATS is behind it, but what I am saying is that I am not sure anyone will ever be proven to be the culprits unless they want, and any opinion is valid until then. (Springer don't hate me, it was just an example....)

I have also been of the opinion that this 'meme' has been created to either obscure us from the 'truth', tantalyze us with its well done, but not 'real' looking (sorry CGI-ist here) documentation that anyone with a pc ad p2p software in the world could make if they were a 'pirate', practiced enough, had the time and had patience and attention to detail. Seriously, I created a hoax image of the Big Basin drone over the Luxor hotel, and no one really had much to say because it looked out of place and unreal, but to me personally, it actually looked more real than the Big Basin images we had been provided up until that point. If you care to see what I am talking about...

I am not sure we will ever find out who is behind this, or if we do, I am not sure it will be as fulfilling as we hope. I also still think 'they' are doing this to see how the group mind can attack problems or solve puzzles. Almost like an Alternative Reality/Viral Campaign that is advertising for itself, and has no real final destination but to expose how we think, and who we are.

DocMoreau

Dang, somehow doubled up posts...

(I am going to take this chance to tell all of you how nice it is to discuss inellegent topics with you all. Sometimes it is hard to find someone who has enough background to even know what I am talking about, but not here. For ever weakness I have in my skillset, there are ten of you all to bring up the slack. High fives all around, even to the 'haters'!)

DocMoreau

(You can chop this, it is off topic)

[edit on 27/7/2007 by DocMoreau]

If I had to bet, I still would bet the hoax is made for financial gains. History is full of this kind of hoaxers; from religious/ historical/ scientific artifacts, faked art to Alien Autopsy and Titor.

Also, I find it suspicous that right after the drones went big, on several boards posters began promoting C2C - coincidence? perhaps.

All in all, I don't disregard the possibility that "Isaac" will take a lawyer in the future (as the John Titor Foundation did) and make a book, a movie and other memorabilia about his "fantasy".

I agree, that we are being tracked. In fact, I am confident that sockpuppets of the hoaxers are active (also on this boards) to "promote" the hoax and keep polarizing the community. By the way, polarization is a powerful marketing tool if done right. Example, suppose G.W. Bush makes his memoirs today, then it will become in no time a super best seller. All around the world his supporters will buy the memoirs because of adoration, but the antis will buy it too trying to understand how he came to his "idiotic" decisions. The power of polarization, as a marketing tool, is that both pros and antis are/will be interested in a certain product/idea.




[edit on 27-7-2007 by Paranoid Duck]

Greetings and Salutations,



That is a distinct probability Outrageo, it is a form collaborative storymaking and everyone is contributing author. I went to Nick Popes website. He is that British Ufologist that worked with their ministry of defence, and has been coined the" Fox mulder" of the Brits.

I found this podcast with his comments.

nick pope on caret

I also did find this on Nicks site : his resume on viral mktng.


Nick Pope or in my words " If you are sittin' on it....you can sell it


PS Can we develop a point system when such events occurr? just example..a digital photo 10pts artifacts unknown deduct 5 pts..can it be replicated.., good witness..20 pts lousy 5 pts..no witness 0 just so we can have a guide . the list can be as long as you want with criteria and allocated points. but we all adhere to it. if it requires proof expertise not like engineering buddies who didnt even certify or give capacity at signature, but had a lot of ifs and no answers ,or notarized affidavits that can be had easily ( I used to be a notary).



SyS o/

Its 400am and LMH rattled nonstop (I swear)..no carets..(imagine that) after she went off caller called in and asked George Noory if it was true about viral marketing on the drone story .Georgy blew the caller off with.."Uhhh yeah theres all kinds of stuff out there..go to to LMHS site for an update!" (click)..Not a thing more was said. this for the event of the century from our fearless scfi radio host.


Loose lips sinks ships, But when mine move I'm gonna take the whole fleet .. an old coworker of mine




[edit on 27-7-2007 by Sys_Config]

[edit on 28-7-2007 by Sys_Config]

[edit on 28-7-2007 by Sys_Config]

[edit on 28-7-2007 by Sys_Config]

Oh my, have any of you gone to this guys web site? It really makes me respect what he has to say... not. He put it in a PDF to make it seem scientific or academic, yet it's really just his opinion, no better than arguments presented here.

I disagree completely with his opinion on how the programming language should be more mechanical. Ideally programming would be plain language, not mechanical. "Please make a window 800 pixels tall by 600 pixels wide and print the words "Hello, World!" in 24 pixel Arial font." If he saw that he would say, "That isn't real! It needs to be written 01000110101100111011101011110100001!"

All by Doc M. I have thought all along that this entire 'meme' involving drones and the Caret documents has been some sort of experiment/analysis of the phenomena of the drone craze.

I know that many others joined here as well as a result of this 'meme'… There was a while that 'Transformers Viral' typed into google brought up ATS pages like 3 in the top 5.... …what I am saying is that I am not sure anyone will ever be proven to be the culprits unless they want, and any opinion is valid until then.

I have also been of the opinion that this 'meme' has been created to either obscure us from the 'truth', tantalyze us…

Correct, Doc – and the premise of it all may be that as willing, enthusiastic participants, we are all feeding the “data mine” with bucket after bucket of material, much of which can be easily utilized in future works of many kinds. And not all of it may be the work of some individual “501(c3)” entity. The motive(s) may be any number of esoteric designs – some possibly being invented as we slog our way through it all.

I also still think 'they' are doing this to see how the group mind can attack problems or solve puzzles. Almost like an Alternative Reality/Viral Campaign that is advertising for itself, and has no real final destination but to expose how we think, and who we are.

Absolutely! Check this scenario: A very clever, adequately curious, but only marginally self-creative PhD candidate needs some psycho-socio-marketing observations to formulate opinion and draw conclusions. We all could be part of an upcoming vividly executed, peer-reviewed DOCTORAL DISSERTATION!

Thesis: The Socialistic Ramifications for and Potential of Mind Control Experimentation through the Generation and Chronologizing of Pseudo-Alarmist Conspiracy Apologues in Internet Forums.

In addition to being active participants in the possible "doctoral thesis of the group mind creating the meme" or something of the like... I am also of the opinion that perhaps those that are doing this to us are maybe more nefarious... I personally have had interesting attacks on my firewall after communicating via U2Us with some of the DoD/Skunkworks types about the Caret Documentation and the drones as a whole. I don't know enough about the ip stuff to know how to figure out who was bombing me, but I could feel the effects of repeatted pings to my ip. Everything would stay cool as long as I did not log in to ats... After a few days, and a cease in communication with those individuals via U2U, everything paned out.

They had some terrific insights into how the how certain aspects of the 'meme' are mib /national enquirer half truths or look like the person who created them, actually knew the protocols of how a real 'doc' would be set up, or that the military is testing conada effect drones that are controlled sort of like Predators. I will invite them here, as long as the we stay metered. I didn't feel like trying to invite them to open discussions while everyone kept 'duking' it out over past issues, annd more of the same old.

I personally have been trying to find topics that I could provide incite on that wouldn't bring me the same heat I was getting, hopefully acquire some points and be able to have an intelligent conversation in the way above area. Maybe thats a joke... I don't know.

Honestly, I think that there are some crafts flying around using technology that is not hydrocarbon based or lighter than air. I think that there are also crafts that maybe conventionally powered, yet use advanced propulsion. Perhaps the technology is from space, or perhaps its from the Nazi Scientists papercliped in to White Sands and the like, or perhaps its just good old plain American ingeniuity. But I also think that this 'meme' has the potential to become a landmark case ('meme') of the "A Free Hive Mind controlled by the New World Psyche" (If we are being written up, I want credit for that term, BIG BROTHER! he he)

Although we don't know the original source of the whole Drone Affair, we do have people from all over the world who have been affected by it. Maybe not like myself, whose fiance wonders what I have been doing instead of working on my art.... But honestly, this whole thing had me tripping out last night listening to C2C, realizing how small the world is really, and how the false barriers are breaking everyday more and more. The Internet1.0/Web2.0 has The Established media on the ropes. Thats why they want Internet2.0 I saw that scroogle was hacked yesterday by the 'chinese'... every consumer pc sold today is pretty much capable of 'professional' video and audio production. Information today really moves at near the speed of light. In addition, the 'hidden hand' must stay one step ahead by tricking us into using things that help leave footprints (google) and believing things that are irrelevant ( hi def newscasts of Lindsay Lohan's recent meltdown right as Venus is going retrograde... Mr. Icke? Mr. Icke?).

Today's internet and the world we live in is like back when the first printing presses were created, but with hundreds of years of 'true freedom' being stifled, built up generation by generation, and then fed a huge dose of refined sugars and addictive stimulants. A sort of controlled chaos that is stronger than any state. We already have a new world order, one of peace and understanding and freedom, but instead we still allow Presidents and Prime Ministers dictate our future. The technology exists today for human kind to stop fighting over resources, take a step back and really figure out the problems.

Organic hydroponic greenhouses in the Deserts growing healthy fruits and vegitables pesitcide free. Cannabis Sativa being grown as a source of textiles, paper, fuel, oil, plastics, grain, livestock feed, medicine and building materials. Trying to eat in a sort of macrobiotic way, trying not to buy food that has travelled more than 50 miles from its source. It saves fuel energy, and the food is way fresher. Plus, I have found working in my garden with my vegitables to be so much more fulfilling than watching an episode of CSI where the science is more far fetched than old Star Trek.

Sorry, It is just so over whelming....

I think that this discussion about the Drone Meme has been the most productive one so far of all the pages. Its like this to me... They put text on the drone images, because people like word puzzles. They don't really show proper scale of drone render to the image, so we still don't really have a feel for actual scale. No real video. Even saladfingers attempts seemed like 'remote control' sized. But in the long run, to me the documentation is not even what is important, until we have live video without a delay, but what is important is how information released from one source C2C (google analytics?) can spread so far, and be perpetuated like a man in a bigfoot suit. Like if you create the term "meme" and then have a site with the word "meme" on it that has google analytics, then you can track how that word "meme" is used throughout the internet. This could even be a coop intel between google/mibs (wink) to explore how they can control the psyche en masse for the upcoming DoD Supercomputer mankind simulation.

I don't know, but sometimes I feel naked discussing these topics.
Thank goodess I have this Lucha Libre Mask on so the FBi doesn't see who I really am hacking my webcam...

Keep up the good work yall...
DocMoreau

The Real E-State

This thread gets "it". All of "it".

The state of the world has changed. Web 2.0, data-harvesting and performance, eyes-on, virtual "group" aspects of the new super-culture, unethical academic research, games, warfare research, fun, profit, other less than noble pursuits and maybe more. Welcome to the E-State where nacent norms and values will be quantified and qualified across this planet.

You see the Net is now "real estate" or territory much the way of traditional bricks and mortar real estate. There is value in this analogy as the "real estate" territory and it's inhabitants are being studied. These "properties" are about ideas and their propagation.

These E-State "real estate" properties exist to access the real "real estate" which is our minds on an individual, group and global level. I'd say it's working. How about you?

I can only guess, but I think this thread is "barking up the right tree" or is at least searching the correct woodlot.

Cheers,

Vic

Originally posted by V Kaminski
The Real E-State

This thread gets "it". All of "it".

Maybe. Plenty of posts indicate otherwise. Personally, I think meme is the fantasy object of some rather articulate ATSers' intellectual flights of fancy. Certainly worth discussing however.

admin edit: removed crass and vulgar term.

[edit on 7-28-2007 by Springer]

Hello Yue'. Having read ALL your posts I see you may favour a "gaming-viral solution". That is an interesting form of play. Hmmm.

Do you have any insights to offer regarding the OP that my contribute or encourage positive discussion or are you merely engaging in a session of "intellectual masterbation" to satisfy a more "base" and limbic need?

You are entitled to your opinion, I might caution you to please be cognizant of Spinger's posts on this thread, too. Enjoy your play.

Some folks take this thread's premise very seriously and are working, researching, collating data to provide a working hypothesis that can be tested. Just because you don't see it posted doesn't mean that it is not being worked on.

Because some of these folks may not be as advanced in forming an opinion as you may or may not be please try to add or encourage a solution rather than berating the work of others as "intellectual masterbation". This type of criticism is uncalled for and may actually be harmful to finding a solution.

Depending on your behaviour, I reserve the privilige as an ATS member in good standing to bring your post to the attention of ATS principals using the alert feature, or as Spinger has suggested, a u2u to his attention.

Thank you for your participation yuefo. Some of the pictures you post are interesting.

Cheers,

Vic

[edit on 28-7-2007 by V Kaminski]

Originally posted by V Kaminski
Depending on your behaviour, I reserve the privilige as an ATS member in good standing to bring your post to the attention of ATS principals using the alert feature, or as Spinger has suggested, a u2u to his attention.

I'm greatly amused by your "threat." Very weak. Apparently you took my comment as an attack, perhaps a personal one at that. Naturally I have a right to my own opinion on the subject, just as you have the right to critique that opinion as to its contributory value to the thread. I do indeed think a viral connection is one possibility, except I believe, if that is the case, it's much simpler than much of what is posited herein, the motivation being plain old turning a buck.

Oh by all means, U2U Springer. The various applause I've received from him in the past speaks for itself. If you want to squelch dissenters, you'll have to do better than that. Oh, and feel free to keep tabs on my various posts. Rather flattering to get so much individual attention.

I don't make threats... the "Alert" button was pressed and a submission made but it is returning a value "Column count doesn't match at row 1" Hmm Ok, a u2u to Springer it is.

Have a pleasant day yuefo'

Vic

[edit on 28-7-2007 by V Kaminski]

Originally posted by V Kaminski
I don't make threats... the "Alert" button was pressed and a submission made but it is returning a value "Column count doesn't match at row 1" Hmm Ok, a u2u to Springer it is.

Have a pleasant day yuefo'

Should Springer, much to your disappointment, fail to take action, will you have to conclude you're guilty of overreation? He'll probably take due note of the fact that I did say this is all worthy of discussion. But I find it ironic that you continue to draw me out to post, considering my luke warm interest in the thread. You were one of the people I had in mind when I referred to “rather articulate ATSers,” and doubtless you know that. If that’s your motivation, sorry, one compliment to a customer.

I'm sorry you feel that way yuefo. You are entitled to an opinion on the OP as to whether it constitutes "intellectual masterbation" contrived for amusement as you claim - well... prove it. The thread is yours, please opine at your leisure.

I'm sure Springer or whomever will intervene if they feel your amusement through "intellectual masterbation" comment is in keeping with community values of denying ignorance and TAC.

It's really not my pervue to deal with at this point. You are anti-meme? OK. I'm sure there are threads for that or start one that will not interfere-negatively with research that some feel has merit.

Have a pleasnt day, I read all your posts and will continue to do so, I promise not to take every word you select in a negative manner on every thread for anything but scholarly, collegial purposes.

I may even comment on some of your work, should the notion occur.

Vic

[edit on 28-7-2007 by V Kaminski]

, I think meme is the fantasy object of some rather articulate ATSers' intellectual masturbation

Uhhhhhh . . . . perhaps you could clue me in about when the release might come?

I mean . . . some of us either are having fun and/or think there's a point to all this? Maybe more than one point?

In any case, the ?dialogue? is meaningful to at least some of us.

It is a puzzle worth some time and energy and evidently endless pontifications.

Perhaps there will be some surprising . . . emissions along the way.

edited slightly away from software screened words that might offend.

[edit on 28/7/2007 by BO XIAN]

7. Experiment. Watch the memes spread kind of deal. See the reaction. I think this is a pretty good one, actually, though I don't see the purpose. With Serpo the idea was to trace leaks by giving parts of the story to several people and see what parts surfaced, thus identifying your traitor. That doesn't appear to be the case here. besides, we've got more than e-mailed stories; we've got pics, diagrams, and lots of cool stuff. But what's the point? Surely it's not a surprise that if you tell a cool story, it spreads. ADDED: Of course DARPA types like to play 'what if?' Most people think DARPA is a big department doing experiments. It's not. It's just a few guys thinking up stuff and farming out grants to see what happens, so this is not out of the realm of possibility, whether government or academic.

Number one is fun & ego. The rest are serious, not for fun scenarios. At this point I sure wish we had some more data. But I do think this is being monitored. The story changes depending on what we say. The lightweight drones changed to heavy artillery because of complaints. the nature of the characters changed when we exhausted all possibilities. Hmmm. Still churning

Thanks for your kind words. Much appreciated.

I think you make quite a number of excellent points. I assume time will tell about the validity of any of our points on all this puzzle.

I certainly think all this is being monitored. But then, everything is being monitored all the time. Thankfully, I think that's their weak point. Too massive a database to distill things out meaningfully in real time quickly enough . . . much of the time--but not all the time . . . depending . . .

I don't know that your seizing on the one probability carries the same probability for me that it does for you. I think the handful of possibilities still in the running--that you screened out--that handful seems quite reasonable to me . . . to hold loosely and let the data filter further. But that's just me.

I'm torn as to whether I expect first . . . that the brilliance that congregates here on ATS in haphazard fashion will out the truth first . . . or whether events will out the truth first. Should be interesting which one of those wins.

Anyone placing any bets?

I think . . . at the moment . . . my . . . inclinations . . . nuancical subtle feelings . . . the meme thing . . . the propagating through the web and the culture thing . . . being monitored . . . the game thing . . . which reminds me . . . I know one of the best such fellows . . . quite retired . . . what was his name . . . Great Christian . . . maybe I could reach him . . . I wonder what he would say about this game . . . he lectured extensively for decades . . . in a lot of military settings and schools . . . hmmm

Anyway--this game business and monitoring it through the culture. I think that has quite a bit of utility as a tentative construct encompassing the largest number of data points.