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To all the debunkers: What makes you think its not a conspiracy?

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posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 07:51 PM
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The question is in the thread title. Im curious to find out why debunkers about 9/11, after reviewing all the evidence themselves, believe 9/11 was a terrorist attack by muslim extremists.

Its just that it bugs me, as much as i want to believe its not true, the more digging up i do, the more thorough my research becomes , the more reality begins to hit me on the head saying wake up from your apparent dream world.

Can anyone give me some decent evidence that debunks the 9/11 horror story, that is a government sponsored terror attack to manipulate the public into following their governments horrific assult on the freedoms of the worlds population.

The more i hear from both sides of the argument the more it becomes apparent that i and most others have been deceived. The western governments and media have been caught lying and mis translating the truth over and over again since 9/11 and all the truth movement has done is reveal facts! (In most cases!) I will be very interested to hear what the experts on this site have to say.

I will reply to all posters that are serious about my above comment and am looking forward to the debunkers replies.

Peace..

Argos

[edit on 23/7/07 by Argos]




posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:05 PM
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Does the verb "to nake" have anything with being naked?

Mod Note: One Line and Short Posts – Please Review This Link.
Mod Note: Please Stay on Topic


[edit on 23-7-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:24 PM
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I like your question Argos. Personally I have come to believe that a lot of discussions of the 9/11 issues, although carried on in the name of reason and truth, in reality have more to do with faith and fear of betrayal and the loss of what the Chinese refer to as "face". I originally believed what the government said was the truth, but now I realize that I was another fool.

P.S.: Learn to poof reed.

[edit on 23-7-2007 by ipsedixit]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:25 PM
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I was going to post something similar.
Probably the Debunkers that write in this board voted (80-90 percent of them) for Bush. They are in a state of denial because they cannot picture in their brain that they might have actually helped 911 by voting the madman.
It would come as a shock to learn the truth and their sense of guilt would not leave them in peace.

I used to feel angry towards them now I feel pity. I still think it would be a good idea if we adopt one of them we could show it to our friends and it would be like a tamagochi, to survive you simply need to say one word :911!!! they start to make all those funny things like going against science and reality.
Anyway save the debunkers they are cute
usually annoying at the beginning but you get used to them with time.
I might adopt a FOX.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:34 PM
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I think that 9/11 being a probable inside job, goes higher than Bush. Some people might think.. Well, he is the President so how can anything be "higher" than him? Although it is surprising to think that there are a lot of things that go on without a presidents approval or knowledge and most people dont believe it is possible but there are reasons that this is done. Sometimes its done to protect the president and sometimes its done to just go over his head.
This is my opinion anyway.
Oh and netstriker, if all you are going to do is post a one liner that makes fun of the OP's typo error in his title, then dont bother posting at all. I just went ahead and forwarded that to the complaint center, just because youre being petty.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by ipsedixit
I like your question Argos. Personally I have come to believe that a lot of discussions of the 9/11 issues, although carried on in the name of reason and truth, in reality have more to do with faith and fear of betrayal and the loss of what the Chinese refer to as "face". I originally believed what the government said was the truth, but now I realize that I was another fool.

P.S.: Learn to poof reed.

[edit on 23-7-2007 by ipsedixit]


I always proof read lol, just forgot this time about the title!

I agree with what you say, you cant believe something until you see it yourself, and what we see isn't always the reality. Its just some more than others can cut through that middle ground easier.

Im still more curious though about what makes the debunkers think 9/11 isn't, as us conspiracists think, an inside job?

What was their defining moment whilst reviewing the evidence that cracked it, in there own heads, that this could not of been an inside job, by small but powerful groups, that have infiltrated the top ranks of western civilisations most powerful governments?

Please i would love to know?!!!!!!



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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Debunkers on ATS? No way... If you do happen to see any around send them here,
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I've been looking for some for well over a month now.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by piacenza
I was going to post something similar.
Probably the Debunkers that write in this board voted (80-90 percent of them) for Bush. They are in a state of denial because they cannot picture in their brain that they might have actually helped 911 by voting the madman.
It would come as a shock to learn the truth and their sense of guilt would not leave them in peace.

I used to feel angry towards them now I feel pity. I still think it would be a good idea if we adopt one of them we could show it to our friends and it would be like a tamagochi, to survive you simply need to say one word :911!!! they start to make all those funny things like going against science and reality.
Anyway save the debunkers they are cute
usually annoying at the beginning but you get used to them with time.
I might adopt a FOX.


LMAO! No offense to the debunkers but that is very funny!



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by Kr0n0s
I think that 9/11 being a probable inside job, goes higher than Bush. Some people might think.. Well, he is the President so how can anything be "higher" than him? Although it is surprising to think that there are a lot of things that go on without a presidents approval or knowledge and most people dont believe it is possible but there are reasons that this is done. Sometimes its done to protect the president and sometimes its done to just go over his head.
This is my opinion anyway.
Oh and netstriker, if all you are going to do is post a one liner that makes fun of the OP's typo error in his title, then dont bother posting at all. I just went ahead and forwarded that to the complaint center, just because youre being petty.


Afer reviewing alot of the evidence my self, i have come to pretty much the same conclusion. This isn't a looney one man crusade against muslims and oil rich countries. This in my honest opinion is a planned attack against the human population of this world.

Im going off topic now, i would like it though if i could hear from some debunkers! I haven't started this thread to try and shoot them down, so to speak, but i would actually like to see if anyone can highlight some incontravertable evidence that i myself have not yet examined, that might be able to tip my point of view towards a reality i am more comfortable with.

EDIT: Typo.

[edit on 23/7/07 by Argos]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:57 PM
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i have yet to find proof that the government did it...

did they say turn their back....or look the other way....possibility....are they just that incompetent...more than likely....



In mid 1992, Salem repeatedly warned the FBI that the Muslim group was planning to carry off a catastrophic bombing in New York City. FBI supervisors were convinced he was concocting tall tales and fired him



also while reading that....


If the van had been parked a few feet closer to one of the pillars, it could have collapsed an entire tower of the Trade Center, killing tens of thousands



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 10:40 PM
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I still find it hard to believe that anyone who looks at all the material out there still don't see that this was done by our own government. Now i wont post any links that we all have seen a million times, But i will post some that you don't see very often. I believe these are some great clues to why it was done. 'm talking about the bush plan to invade iraq and end the end take over the whole middle east And probably china in the end. We can see now that iran will be next. Chinas borders will be surrounded if the bush plan continues. Here is the first link.

www.axisoflogic.com...

Now here is a link that talks about the woolworth building and the connection that may have the weapon that took out the towers in the end.

www.orbwar.com...

And yet here is some more info that is quite interesting.

www.rense.com...

Like i said, to many things to list, but you get the idea. And believing the "official" report to me is just ignorant. Our government has hidden every possible evidence to what happened on 9/11, But one day most of it will come out. But most likely even then the truthers will have some way to argue that it didn't happen. Its hard to change when your either to far right or to far left. Well, good luck to all in the near future. Things are about to get worse. thank you.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 11:56 PM
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I don't believe 9/11 was a government conspiracy because-- No one IN power would go to such elaborate and UNCERTAIN lengths to forward an agenda.

A simple Risk vs. Reward assesment and it is easy to see the US would not ransack her largest city to make some "moves" in the Middle East.

The Risk: Lose everything, be exposed as tratiors, lose respect of all world's governments, and be executed-- DEAD! All of this based on the most elaborate and untested plan ever devised. Who would have the stones try out new and inventive ways of demolishing buildings, and firing off domestic cruise missles in hopes no one would "really" notice-- (except a band of supa-savvy intraweb postarz)

The Reward: To do everything you already have the power to do in the first place. Why add needless risk?

If it was some grand scheme by the NWO/Bush Administration/ Whatever--then don't you think we would be less free, now 6 years later? If the US was all that powerful don't you think we would have established order in Iraq? Or at least found the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" -- If it was some grand scheme why would the Powers behind it keep getting huge political black eyes for bungles? And in doing so lose all momentum that might have once been gained early this century.

Face it -- It is incompetence by our federal system. It is arrogance by underestimating our enemies. Failure to understand our enemies enough to identify a valid threat. Conspiracy theorists play right into this "Incompetent Arrogance" by feeling the only people in the world with the means to carry out 9/11 is our own military/intelligence operations.

Denial of the fact that there are people outside the US that hate us and want to kill us (and our way of life) so bad they are willing to die for it.

Any tragic event can be reverse engineered to fit a "Conspiracy"

Take the Titanic for instance-- Tragic unexpected event that you could find links to wealthy people you could find that certain people perished ect...until you get a "WOW ZOMG!!!" moment. It's like the movie "23" if you look hard enoungh you can make anything fit --and disregard any information that doesn't.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:55 AM
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Taxi - You make some good points. Although you are putting your own values to the risk vs reward balance. Anyone with the calibuor to do something like this thinks different than you or i do. Using your own argument. Maybe their adgenda, what ever it maybe grossly outweighs getting called a tratior then going into hiding.

I also think you're trivalizing 'moves' in the middle east. You can look at it from many angles; drugs, oil, goverment contracts, fear mongering. Pick your topic. These aren't simple 'moves'.

I refuse to accecpt our goverment was/is that incompetent. I dont think bush is as stupid as he leads on. I've seen him in some speaches where he actually does a great job and others where he is a bumbling fool. What's more likely? he is a fool but can hold a great interview 1/20 times or he is actually pretty intelligent and dumbs himself down. Also you have to remember it wouldnt be bush and his buddies that actually think up this stuff. They have an adgenda and a team would come up with the specfics on how to make it happen.

Also you state that 'they already had the power'. Sorry a president doesnt have the power to goto war with anyone they want. They need some event to get the people and the soldiers behind him. So it not even close to a 'needless risk'



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 02:19 AM
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they dont have the power to just declare war....but they can show some leg and make it mighty tempting to have that leg a target.....

and you said exactly what he was talking about...."I refuse to accecpt our goverment was/is that incompetent".....i'm in the military....and we have this thing that with the more rank you have...the dumber you are....sometimes you get an(as in singular)intelligent high ranking person....but one alone does nothing...and all the smart young guys put on rank quickly....it's a conspiracy to keep us incompetent....



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 10:09 AM
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So, the US is so incompetent that it can't stop (or even hinder) 19 Arabs attacking the country? What's to happen when a REAL threat comes? Say like China? We might as well just bow down now and start cooking peaking duck.

[edit on 7/24/2007 by Griff]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
So, the US is so incompetent that it can't stop (or even hinder) 19 Arabs attacking the country?
[edit on 7/24/2007 by Griff]


why not? this is the same group of people who can't manage a ground war in a country that suffered from the worst economic sanctions for a decade before being invaded. look at bush standing in front of that "mission accomplished" banner and tell me that he, or anyone who works for him, is actually capable of pulling off the world's greatest consipiracy. i honestly can't believe it

as for the topic question, because science has again and again shown that the allegations made in the majority of 9-11 theories are baseless. if i have to choose between the scientifically supported evidence of experts and the assuptions of people with no background in the area(s) they are discussing, i'm going to side with the experts every time (and the experts say that bombs didn't explode in WTC, a plane hit the pentagon, etc.)

i am in no way suggesting that these attacks were not preventable. i haven't actully read much about who could have known what when. see my above comments about the bush administration. we hired chumps to look out for us, so who knows how many balls they dropped leading up to 9-11? people being dumb isn't the same thing as them being evil (as much as i might confuse the two during my daily commute)

btw, the various insulting attitudes towards people who don't accept the myriad of theories put forth here probably means this will be my first and last post at ATS. good luck to you guys (and gals), i hope you find the truth you're looking for



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
Say like China? We might as well just bow down now and start cooking peaking duck.

[edit on 7/24/2007 by Griff]



i happen to rike my sweet and souwa chicken with steamed wice....

and if china fights a conventional war i'd say we'd win....

[edit on 24-7-2007 by wenfieldsecret]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
So, the US is so incompetent that it can't stop (or even hinder) 19 Arabs attacking the country? What's to happen when a REAL threat comes? Say like China? We might as well just bow down now and start cooking peaking duck.


The deal is; it is much harder to distungish beforehand someones internal intentions in a small covert group-- as opposed to a large visible army.

We are geared for a large identifiable army-- that is our military's strengh.

I am not saying that ANY Government would be able to protect their citizens from a small group of terroists. I doubt they would be able to-- that is why Al Queda is effective. Al Queda also has nothing to lose politically..and you cannot put economic sanctions on a radical concept.

IOW radical islamic terroists have less restrictions on abhorent behavior than established world power states.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver
The deal is; it is much harder to distungish beforehand someones internal intentions in a small covert group-- as opposed to a large visible army.


You mean, like how we didn't know about the '93 bombing, who was involved and how it was to be done?

I beg to differ. We knew. We helped. We didn't stop it.


In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, a former Egyptian army officer named Emad A. Salem. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of the hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem, initially believing that this was to be a sting operation, claimed that the FBI's original plan was for Salem to supply the conspirators with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their bomb, but that the FBI chose to use him for other purposes instead. [10] He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers; reported by Ralph Blumenthal in the New York Times, Oct. 28, 1993, section A,Page 1.[11]

In December 1993, James M. Fox, the head of the FBI's New York Office, denied that the FBI had any foreknowledge of the attacks.[citation needed] The 1993 WTC sting operation was depicted as a false flag operation and was a plot device for the 1996 movie The Long Kiss Goodnight with Geena Davis.


Source: en.wikipedia.org...

So, I am to believe that in '93, our intelegence agencies knew this stuff, but were totally incompetant in 2001?

BTW, I have been saying this from day one. I can't believe you people take incompetance as an excuse. If my incompetance led to the deaths of 3,000+ people, I'm sure you ALL would be calling for me to resign.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by aquarius3733
Taxi - You make some good points. Although you are putting your own values to the risk vs reward balance. Anyone with the calibuor to do something like this thinks different than you or i do.


How would you know? What exactly are the values of this local, shadowy, boogieman that 6 years later is still unidentified by conspiracy theorists.


Using your own argument. Maybe their adgenda, what ever it maybe grossly outweighs getting called a tratior then going into hiding.


Who is "they" exactly? And if "they" happens to be the current Administration-- then why do they keep getting political black-eyes usurping them of power? Did they cold-heartedly decide to kill 3000 of their own citizens just to suddenly back-off until their terms expire? Ridiculous!


I also think you're trivalizing 'moves' in the middle east. You can look at it from many angles; drugs, oil, goverment contracts, fear mongering. Pick your topic. These aren't simple 'moves'.


No? Where did I say any of this is "simple"-- my point is: Regardless of 9/11 we still *could have invaded Afganistan and also invaded Iraq. As a matter of fact I feel that had 9/11 never occured we would STILL be in the Iraqi war today.

Clinton ordered a barage of cruise missles targeting Afganistan. Why is it such a stretch to think that the American people/ allied nations wouldn't be supportive of a strike on the Taliban based solely on despotism and opression? (not to mention their public aid for terrorists)



I refuse to accecpt our goverment was/is that incompetent. I dont think bush is as stupid as he leads on. I've seen him in some speaches where he actually does a great job and others where he is a bumbling fool. What's more likely? he is a fool but can hold a great interview 1/20 times or he is actually pretty intelligent and dumbs himself down. Also you have to remember it wouldnt be bush and his buddies that actually think up this stuff. They have an adgenda and a team would come up with the specfics on how to make it happen.


All it would take is ONE member of that team to disagree with murdering fellow Americans and the whole house of cards would come tumbling down. Would YOU stand behind a proposition like that? Could you live with it? How much to keep you and everyone else involved quiet? Fifty bucks or so?


Also you state that 'they already had the power'. Sorry a president doesnt have the power to goto war with anyone they want. They need some event to get the people and the soldiers behind him. So it not even close to a 'needless risk'


Event: Despotism
Event: Harboring Terroists
Event: Weapons Development
Event: Past Criminal Indisgression
Event: Civil Rights Violations
Event: Previous Attacks On US Facilities

Notice I never mentioned 9/11. We had enough to begin operations without 9/11. Clinton and Bush senior had already set precednce as well. Both in Afganistan and Iraq.


[edit on 24-7-2007 by Taxi-Driver]



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