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A heated "debate" with a Christian....

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posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 08:11 AM
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Agreed. Humans could never comprehend what divine perfection is. It's possible that God can exist and not know what choices we're going to make. I bet God could even switch between choosing to know and not know these things himself for various reasons. To figure out God is to figure out the entire universe and I doubt any human could do that in thier lifetime.




posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 08:22 AM
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I have a small understanding about man's will.

Absolutely, we have choices, and our choices affect, not only us, but others.

How I understand it is.


God has an overall plan, a final outcome.

Now God intervenes to keep the overall on a certain path.

When an individual does something against God, it may affect someone on the other side of the planet, because of the balance is upset.

When a large nation goes against a smaller nation, even though the larger nation is probably wrong, the smaller nation pays the greatest price, initially. But eventually the large nation will pay.

So, even though it seems some get away with it, they don't, because they will pay for how they have affected others, with the Book Of Life as their witness, and Jesus the ultimate Judge.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 09:04 AM
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Religion, IMO, is just another branch of peuso-science that began its history thousands of years ago.

Simply thinking, just like we modern human beings have the need to describe the universe through scientific, logical explanations using mathematical laws, human beings from thousands of years ago also wanted the same thing, only lacking the scientific tools and languages we now have.

They wanted to know the same thing we wanted to know: how the universe began. We have our current attempts at trying to explain just that, and the biggest contender seems to be the big bang theory.
People living around 4,000B.C. had their own "big bang" theory - God. Something must have created the universe. How did they explain it? They couldn't, unless they created a certain kind of "omnipotent" entity that created the universe. This idea does not restrain itself from trying to explain Christianity, it explains other religions as well.

I strongly believe that religion at some point was very crude science.

Just my two cents.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 09:16 AM
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Good thoughts everyone keep them comming.. For a heated debate this hasnt gotten to ugly yet!! thats a good sign here! Im thinking we can atleast understand that each of us feel different things, yet we all know we are good people, and want to live a good life, and maybe make this world a better place. We just have to come to the understanding its not God who is flawed, it is the people who run the churches, and really tarnish the good name of what God is.. Now God to me, is not God to you, but they are still the same thing. See we are all one.. God is the overall part of everyone that ever was put together. Ive always liked to think that the pain I have gone threw is felt by God, and all the love I have is felt by God. Thats why I am here, each one of us is like a nerve ending, in which God in the sense knows everything that is, only becasue he is deeply connected to us all mentally, and spiritually. Its a beautiful thing really



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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Being a reader of comic books, I knew before I went to see "V for Vendetta" that V would die at the end. To this day, that fact doesn't stop me from watching that movie again and again, or for that matter re-reading a good book.

We live extrordinary lives as human beings. There are a plethora of ideas, information, feelings and emtions in each of our lives. This is a physical universe and I think any higher spiritual beings would be greatly interested in living a human exsistance. I've always thought of this life as a vacation from the ominous vastness of the universe, even if we are oblivious to what else lies beyond this experience. For a spiritual being that might exsist for hundreds of thousand, millions, or even billions of years, a lifetime would be a blink of an eye and a welcome break, I think.

When you get on a roller coaster, you can see before your eyes exactly what you're going to experience, but do that ruin the fun for you?



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 09:53 AM
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Look,people... God never told man that he had "free will."

You show me one place in any holy text.... I don't care from what religion where God actually states that man has "free will," and I will personally kiss your butts on capitol hill...

It doesn't exist.It is a man made concept that has no spiritual or theological basis whatsoever.

In order for "free will" to actually exist, we'd have to be able to base our decisions on what we really want to do, rather than what we have to do. Any logical person know that is just not the case.

Is everything predetermined? For a long time I thought, no, but the longer I live, the more I am starting to think it is.

[edit on 26-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 10:45 AM
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"God" is the human's little-modified-monkey-brain attempt to wrap words and ideas accesible to a very frequency-limited, sensing apparatus (sight, sound etc.) to geometric energy patterns emanating from hyperdimensional space. Everything exists within this framework. Freewill and determinism are both illusions of the interconnected flow of energy. One persons actions can have rippling effects that branch out and cause change. I think of it as a spider web in that a caught fly in the web send energy impulses through the rest of the web except rather than hapeening in 3 dimensions it is happening in 5,6,7,8? We just don't have the sensing apparatus to best understand how to pull the strings in the web. As above so below.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 10:53 AM
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I do believe in God, and I am a Christian. When I have problems with certain questions relating to God I go back to my relationship with my children. Why did God make us? Why did my wife and I have Children? etc..........
I know alot of what is going to happen to my 6 year old today, I know where he will be all 24 hours. I know his thoughts, because he talks all day. He is going to be loving, he will be defient, he will bug his older sister to tears, he will laugh, cry, try, fail, swim, fall, run, yell, for the most part his day is laid out before him, even though I know this, he needs to experience it and he will learn from it.

I am not saying I know the answer to this post, but If I knew the outcome of my sons life before he was born and that fact it may end bad, would I still have him. Absolutly, everyday with him is a gift and I would not want to miss out on all the joy we give each other. Maybe that how deep Gods love for us is.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 11:54 AM
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Point: To try and explain, to understand, and conceive and sort of concept of a deity is fool-hardy at best. We do not know how they/it/he works, only that who they are supersede us in every and all ways. Debating Humanity's logic of any God is flawed, as, if they do exist, we are only able to interpret them through our own understanding. Can bacteria conceive the ways human work?
As long as your going to move into the metaphysical and philosophical realm to debate God, use it to Debate how you are able to debate 'God' in the first place?

Point: God, as it is said, gave us free-will. This implies it is not naturally inherent in us; that we do not have it by nature of existence without his interference. Now, ignoring the above point and assuming this is a literal and exact interpretation, isn't it possible that an all-powerful God 'gave us' freewill by blinding, or executing his ability of precognition? I do mean this as in, 'he poked out his eyes, so he could not see', as that would imply there was still sight to begin with.
I am arguing that he erased precognition, and the basis on its foundations in the first place.

Point: Perhaps you are right. Free will cannot co-exist with precognition. Erego, by giving humanity free-will, he eliminated his ability to know everything. This is a much more fragile theory, however, so I will allow the rest of you to debate it.

Regardless, I am agnostic.
I think this is important, since it helps to explain my views.
I believe in God -- Though I do not think I am mature enough to understand which god, let alone the multiple denominations of most religions.
And I think for the many of you here that belief you are inherently superior to those of us who believe in religion, you have to take a step back and re-examine yourself, and question how hypocritical some of your stances are.

Many people here are attacking the fundamentals of religion, or specific religions in general and not only is that one of the most sensitive personal subjects a human being has rights to, but it says something very particular about the person who thinks they are superior in any way shape or form based on their spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof.
You represent your conceptions of God, or of no God, in a terrible way when you are so naive, and ignorant, and aggressive as to denounce any manner of God or Goddess.

This is straddling a veiled flame-war, and we have to be careful.


Edit:
Point: Awhile ago I read that everything in this universe is all-ready set in stone through several fundamentals of the quantum principles.
While I haven't heard of this theory in awhile, and will leave it to more-engaged members, I thought it another interesting example of how science and religion sometimes straddle one-another.

[For future reference, I, too, have never once seen 'Man = Free will' in any religious text.]



[edit on 26-7-2007 by Iblis]



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 12:19 PM
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Mankinds history has been one big experiment in trying to fulfill the same goal Eve desired when she sinned.

She wanted to Be Like God, "knowing Good and Bad" . Knowing in her case meant rejecting Gods standards of what was right & wong, good & bad, and establishing her own standards. In effect attempting to become a free moral agent with the full right of self determination. This is what Satan was in effect promising her and this is the lie she believed.

Eve's outcome & mans long history of suffering, pain, and oppression of his fellow man, have proved to me that man is not capable of "directing his own step"


Jeremiah 10:23 (New King James Version)

23 O LORD, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.


Man is not a free moral agent able to make decisions without consequences.

True, God gave man the right to choose whether to worship him or not, but that doesn't mean that all choices are correct or will prove to be beneficial in the long run.

Like any good parent he tells what to do to be happy and have a happy future & he warns us of the dangers of making bad or foolish decisions.
The choice is still ours.

For those that don't believe in God, they find that they still are not granted the right to full self determination without consequences. We are all governed & restricted by the laws of the land. None of us are capable of living without being subject to some type of authority.

So those who reject a belief in God because they feel that it would someway infringe on their free will are deluding themselves. They are merely rejecting a level of authority that many consider Higher than that of secular governments and accepting the authority that is inherent in all human societies, whatever they may be.








[edit on 26-7-2007 by Sparky63]



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by merkaba93
"God" is the human's little-modified-monkey-brain attempt to wrap words and ideas accesible to a very frequency-limited, sensing apparatus (sight, sound etc.) to geometric energy patterns emanating from hyperdimensional space.


There we go.
We can now start to use words like frequency and hyperdimentional and superstring but 4,000 years ago people had to resort to the idea of God for a lack of better term or realization.

It could very well change in the next millenium, our current understanding of hyperdimensional space could prove to be really something else.

One thing I really cannot be convinced to believe is that these old religious ideas, that have been converted to fit the culture and the knowledge of the particular time frame in which they were formed are still lingering to this date. Now, I am not blasting religions nor am I saying that religions are bad in general. I do respect all forms and shapes of religion. I just cannot embrace religious views.

It would have been real hard to explain the behaviour of electrons to a commoner living in 80 B.C. Instead, analogies were used to describe the behaviour of electrons in different terms, language that used to make sense back then. I have read parts of Christian bible long time ago, and I remember reading a lot of passages referring to farming, grains, sun, field, sand and such. This is because those were the common elements back when the bible was written.

Referring back to the OP, this is perhaps the reason most pro-religious people are so tied up in semantics is because they need to.

Hey, I am all ears for everything. If ONE intellectual can successfully and convincingly PROVE to me that God exists, I will have no choice but to believe in God, even if believing in God itself is against my personal belief.

Predeterminism or free will. I really do not care.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 02:03 PM
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I always adore how any question about religion always returns to 'God exists vs. Atheism'. Which says a point about the contenders maturity levels.

Anyway.

Please return to topic.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 06:20 PM
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My thoughts on the matter are this.

God IS omniscient. But God who? The God we read about in all holy books is omniscient. The man made God is every thing we say he is. The beings/forces who are in charge do what they do, not what we say or think or believe they do. We do not know what they do, because we cannot...with Bibles, Muhammed & Christ & Boodha being in the scene, we cannot. We are dictated by trivial beings whom we created a long time ago & by books we wrote for a power struggle. Whether those books were words from higher beings or not...they aren't now. Those original words(if there ever really was any original words) have been corrupted by man.

What you see in the bible is not words from the God...but words of your God. The man!

If the real superior beings are omniscient...we cannot understand why they act & how they act. maybe if they explain it to us...but if they did, I doubt we'd understand.

god the man is omniscient, because we said so.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 08:55 PM
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A good friend of mine told me the other day that we do not have any free will at all, and he backed it up with a very convincing, logical argument. (WARNING: This assumes that evolution is true
). So here goes:

Imagine that we build a supercomputer so powerful that we could input all of the information in the entire universe. We find out exactly what the conditions were like at the time of the Big Bang (or when God created the universe- at the point that physics took over) and we follow the data exactly as it plays out through the millions of years.
This means that we know where every atom is going to be and is going at all times, the velocities etc.

With this knowledge we could watch and see exactly the times and how the first lifeforms were forming on Earth (I am going to stick to Earth to keep this on topic and relevant to humans) we would be able to see exactly what every atom was doing and how they formed.

It is important to remember that we know exactly how all the atoms and elements are moving, the speeds, the quantum physics etc. means we know exactly where every atom will be, combine with and what they are doing at all times.

Now since we know how all the atoms are going to react with each other means that they have one pre-set path of collision, seperation, coerscion etc. so we can safely assume that the universe would have no 'free will' because it is just following the laws of physics.

BUT HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING-
the universe is in set motion so therefore the uniting of elements and forming of DNA, RNA, cells etc. are SET. This cannot be changed. this means that as evolution takes place, and when the genes are formed for the animals, humans etc. we know exactly what those genes, chromosones etc. are. If we know exactly what molecules make up our chromosones and genes then we can predict exactly what we are going to do.

This gets a little tricky here so bear with me.
We can see exactly what chromosones do and are made of. this means we know exactly what we are going to look like. If we know exactly what our genes and DNA, RNA are made of then we know exactly what that thing is going to do. Everything that you do is based on 2 factors: Outside influence and your genetic makeup.

If we know all the outside influences (because we know exactly what is going on and will go on in the universe), and we know exactly what the genetic makeup is and means (because it is just a natural extension of the physics of the universe) therefore we can predict exactly what anyone is going to do at any time.

Some people will say 'no way, I would change my mind', but you would change your mind because of the outside influence of this information, which we already would have known you would see. Therefore you chang your mind because that is the type of person you are, based on your genes.

Thus, we do NOT have any free will, with or without God. So everybody is happy


Sorry for the long post.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Iblis
I always adore how any question about religion always returns to 'God exists vs. Atheism'. Which says a point about the contenders maturity levels.

Anyway.

Please return to topic.


It is perhaps because every religion incorporates at their own respective levels the idea of God and the need to worship the God. In order to talk about religion really, we need to first universally define what God is.

This God in some religions is an entity - an omnipotent being.
In others this God is anything else - objects stated as such (books, parts of fabric, etc) or metaphysical entities such as 'energy'. A common element in every religion, however, is that the God has absolute powers that everything else in the entire universe do not have.

Is it really necessary to be restrained on thousands of years old beliefs that requires us to 'worship' or 'pay tribute' to a 'being' just because we were told to? Thunderous storms, lightning storms, insanely massive hurricanes, earthquakes of terra-forming proportions... How else would have people back then explain these phenomena lacking the basic scientific knowledge?? Every single religion out there - prove me wrong at this point, everyone so far have failed to - refer to these phenomena as "acts" of God, or punishments by God and such.

I would love to know what the universe really is, don't get me wrong. Big bang or God, I would take any convincing explanation. So far science provides a more credible explanation through mathematics and logic rather than absolute, naive belief based solely on faith.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by Mantys

With this knowledge we could watch and see exactly the times and how the first lifeforms were forming on Earth (I am going to stick to Earth to keep this on topic and relevant to humans) we would be able to see exactly what every atom was doing and how they formed.

It is important to remember that we know exactly how all the atoms and elements are moving, the speeds, the quantum physics etc. means we know exactly where every atom will be, combine with and what they are doing at all times.


Taking quantum physics into calculation immediately contradicts the entire idea of predeterminism.

Quantum physics is based on uncertaintly. We would never ever know where an atom is with what velocity at any given moment.

In macroscopic scale, yes it would be possible for a supercomputer to calculate the position and the velocity of an object but as soon as we scale down to microscopic levels, nothing is certain.

So, we never know exactly where any atom will be.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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That is true based on our current knowledge, but I am talking about the ultimate in physical science. It would all come down to limits (Aaah Newton). It is true that we may never know eactly where an electron may be a that exact time, but the limit theory would mean we can have an infitesimally (sp?) close approximation without ever actually knowing the EXACT answer.

Plus I am talking in completely hypothetical terms, as though we did know exactly what everything was doing at that exact time. If we did know where everything would be at any time then we would see that free will is impossible as everything is just following the laws of the universe.

Hypothetical but I think you know what I mean.

[edit on 27-7-2007 by Mantys]



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by Karilla
If we do actually have free will, then the future is not fixed, and so the outcome of our choices cannot be known in advance, and God is not all-knowing and all-powerful, as I understand the Bible maintains.

This is my dilemma. How can both be true?



There's always a problem with the definition of "God" in any of these pointless arguments. I have never seen anyone come up with a reasonable definition of God that can be useful in a rational argument. All of the definitions contain inherent contradictions and paradoxes that negate any proper discussion.

One of the most primary problems is illuminated by the question, "What does God need?" If this entity, this thing, is truly omnipotent, then it should have no needs. It would follow then, that it would have no motivation to create, to divide things into opposites like light and dark, or to have a silly little ape creature bow and scrape before its might power under threat of death.

And if this thing is truly controlling every action in the universe, then it holds all the cards and has already stacked the deck billions of years ago. You have no free will in that situation.

I guess I like the Gnostic Christians most when it comes to this problem. They discovered that anything like a real God would be completely unknowable and unfathomable to us, and certainly not within our power to sway with nutty rituals and cheap prayers. God in the old Bible stories, Abaldaoth or Saklas, is a powerful but ultimately bogus entity only pretending to be God.

So the best you can do in this life is to understand that and try to make things a little better for your fellow man in this harsh, ultimately pointless existence.

[edit on 27-7-2007 by SuicideVirus]



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mantys
It is important to remember that we know exactly how all the atoms and elements are moving, the speeds, the quantum physics etc. means we know exactly where every atom will be, combine with and what they are doing at all times.


Now, I am a free person, and I can move my billions of atoms where I want, and no computer can ever calculate where I am heading even if you begin at the big bang.

I am free to do what I want, but in a rally narrow band. But that leaves me billions of possible outcomes.
I don't believe god has any more interest in us, he may be playing somewhere else.



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Mantys
Plus I am talking in completely hypothetical terms, as though we did know exactly what everything was doing at that exact time. If we did know where everything would be at any time then we would see that free will is impossible as everything is just following the laws of the universe.


I'm glad you pointed this out from your first post. In your theory of building a supercomuter for such an experiment, you have to realize the only person that would know such a thing would be God-like beings and your expirement would be pointless because we'd already have infinite knowledge, thus we would need no such expirement. I understand your theory, but at the rate we're processing information, the galaxy will have expired well before we could come up with a computer that could process such information.

Also, all things cannot be predetermined. The universe is infinte and based on your theory we'd have to map the universe. If we only mapped the earth, solar system, or galaxy, we'd still be subject to outside forces such as comets and asteroids. We'd have to map the entire universe and being that the universe is infinte, your theory cannot be completed. There is a level of infinity and randomness to our universe that makes it questionable even to the most superior beings. God may exsist, but he's just a player in the whole scheme of things, just as we are. He's just the king on this chessboard and we sir, are the pawns.



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