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A heated "debate" with a Christian....

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posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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Also too, if the mechanic knows that you are lazy, shiftless and have a long history of making bad decisions, he may be 100% confident that you will ignore his instructions and destroy your engine. His knowlege that you will make a stupid decision still does not make him responsible for your actions.




posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 04:37 PM
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Responding to the topic.

Its hard to understand and its not.

The fact is yes God creats, yes God knows everthing. Yet he did not make your choices for you. Why do you think Jesus is here so we can ask forgivness for sin (which God did not want) that we commited. Go knows our basic direction in life. He puts options in front of you and you choose the ones you want. You can do thing that God does not want, or didnt know that you would commit. What God knows is your heart and soul. HE knows the directions you will take but not the direct path to which you choose on a dayly path.

Remember the whole reason for earth and no proof of God, and blind faith, is free will. You cant have free will, or faith, if you have proof. That would stop the whole perpose. God is out there, look around you.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb
Responding to the topic.

Its hard to understand and its not.

The fact is yes God creats, yes God knows everthing. Yet he did not make your choices for you.


Sure your right, God doesnt make you chose him.. He only bribes you into having faith for him. Because if you dont, well agin, you burn in hell forever!
Let me rephrase this.. God didnt bribe you its the churches and the preists who bribe and make this.. Im not blaming God for this..

I love God, and have a great understanding of what it is too me! I just wish I could find a place that is not a cult, or a place I could go to share my feelings with others, helping family members out and doing things in life that make it better for us all, not just the preists or churches... But I still have yet to find a place like that unless its my own room..

I dont see what is so hard to understand about this God stuff!! Its not a choice when someone offers a bribe on one side, and torture on the other!
Thats what it boils down too!!! SO stop sugar coating it!!
Everyone that belives in God, please tell me, if my God is not the God you see in your mind then I go to hell right? right?
Right!! Ive been to many churches, and they say, "If you dont belive in our God, you go to hell."
Simple stuff there... So you guys are going to sit here and spin around what I say.. If I belive in a doornob as my higher power then if it suits me what is the problem.. Well you would say, a doornob is silly and its not a God, and your going to hell for mocking and scoffing him!!
No a doornob as my God is just as silly to me as your God.. See?
So my God is a doornob, and is that going to get me into heaven?

Or must we play this game, and say that God gave you the choice! Take it or leave it.. Dont play that with me, its not going to work.
Also dont play that I dont have a real God, when your thoughts are just as silly to me!
And agin dont play it off as I am working for the devil either, I dont belive in your God, or his Satan.. And if God knows everything! Why did he allow Lucifer to become so jealous, you would have thought he would sit down and talk with him.. No that shows me that is there is evil, the churches and the your Masters are the ones at the ROOT of the evil!!!

Your preist Masters say this and that to me all the time, and tell me how I will burn in hell... How many times must I say this, burning in hell to living in the nice clouds is not a choice!! Its not a choice when your being bribed on one side, and torture on the other side.. Sorry guys, I dont mean to knock your faiths, but someone needs to come along and test your true feelings on the matter..

My God is not your God.. Thus if I went to your church and said that to your preacher, what do you think he will say?

He will sertinly say, I want to save you with the power of Jesus christ and save you from hell..
LOL I know Ive been threw church all my life, and was highly abused by the church and the wicked preists who like little boys.. So dont even try to tell me church is a holy place, when what I remember of church is truely hell on earth.. Peace!

Edit: I had to rephrase what I said, I dont blame God for what I say, I blame the churches and the people in charge!!

[edit on 053131p://5119 by zysin5]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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To be honest I dont go to church for some of the reason you say.

Please go to this post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Read the last thing I said.

The problem is churches and preachers. Church want to believe what they want to believe to make them feel better. Then they want to make their church bigger and as you said they say if you dont believe in what I believe your going to hell. No offense when in the end the simple believe in God and Jesus is what saves you. Sorry you had a bad time in the church so have I. it only show that what I say in the other post is real.

God is out there and so is Jesus. Just dont focus on the hate so much.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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again, if there are consequences to your decisions, they shape your will and push you in one direction or another, preventing your true will from expressing itself. Thus, god did not give us free will.

Also, not everyone can have free will even if it included consequences.

For example,
If person A picks up a gun and uses it to shoot and kill person B,
Person A expresses his free will to do so however,
person B cannot express his free will to NOT DIE.

Again proving, god did not give us free will.

Don't believe me? try the person a and b experiment and prove me wrong.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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"Free Will" is a myth.. We don't make decisions based on what we want to do, but based on circumstance...

[edit on 25-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Kruel

Perhaps we write the story of our life before we come here though... there's a thought to ponder. "Before" being a term used loosely in this case, since our existence before this life is outside of time.



Wow, while I am a good writer in life, I must have been a miserable one before I got here..



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 07:12 PM
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How about the infinite universe theory? This could validate for free will. How about if God knew the outcome to every possible decission and scenario that your life could possibly take. That would make God still all knowing and yet one would have "free will" . If God is all omnipotent and all knowing then God would still know the outcome of ones life but from a different perspective. And as you make decissions in time prior alternate realities cease to exist, as the outcome of yourjouney commences.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 07:16 PM
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For me, "Free Will" only exists in a consequence free reality. We obviously do not live in such a system.. Instead of making decisions based upon what we really want to do, which is TRUE free will, we make decisions based on what we have to do. That, in my honest opinion, is not free will.

To answer your question, naturally God knows what we are going to do before we do it... He knows the circumstance and the nature of man..





[edit on 25-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 09:57 PM
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For example,
If person A picks up a gun and uses it to shoot and kill person B,
Person A expresses his free will to do so however,
person B cannot express his free will to NOT DIE.


If person B truly believes in God. Then he has exercised his freewill in choosing God (the way of peace, mercy, love, kindness). Then person B knows that God is the author and finisher and can intervene and cause the gun not to fire, or make a way of escape that person B does not even perceive. Jesus proved that when he raised Lazarus from the dead.

Better than a parent who guides a child, God will guide.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by Siren

For example,
If person A picks up a gun and uses it to shoot and kill person B,
Person A expresses his free will to do so however,
person B cannot express his free will to NOT DIE.


If person B truly believes in God. Then he has exercised his freewill in choosing God (the way of peace, mercy, love, kindness). Then person B knows that God is the author and finisher and can intervene and cause the gun not to fire, or make a way of escape that person B does not even perceive. Jesus proved that when he raised Lazarus from the dead.

Better than a parent who guides a child, God will guide.



That was a clever way to spin that to try to prove that example wrong. Yet agin our friends will sugar coat a simple example to justify in their minds that they are 100% right in their mindset.
And where is the proof Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead anyway?

Second point is. That his example was this, a person tied to a chair, and the other with a gun, no escape, for example sakes he had 1000 guns in the room, so if one missed fired by an act of God then he would have a back up to prove this point. No spinning this issue please.
The point he was making was that if a person is getting killed by someone else, they dont have the freewill to not die.. simple.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by zysin5
Sure your right, God doesnt make you chose him.. He only bribes you into having faith for him. Because if you dont, well agin, you burn in hell forever!
Let me rephrase this.. God didnt bribe you its the churches and the preists who bribe and make this.. Im not blaming God for this..


As i posted previously in this thread, if you believe in him you will have eternal life, if you do not believe in him you will not have eternal life and you will die. Hell is a human creation in terms of "if you sin you go to hell" but hell, in the context of the bible, is a place for the devil and HIS angels. Humans DIE, NO eternal life.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by shearder

Originally posted by zysin5
Sure your right, God doesnt make you chose him.. He only bribes you into having faith for him. Because if you dont, well agin, you burn in hell forever!
Let me rephrase this.. God didnt bribe you its the churches and the preists who bribe and make this.. Im not blaming God for this..


As i posted previously in this thread, if you believe in him you will have eternal life, if you do not believe in him you will not have eternal life and you will die. Hell is a human creation in terms of "if you sin you go to hell" but hell, in the context of the bible, is a place for the devil and HIS angels. Humans DIE, NO eternal life.


Okay so Im being bribed with Eternal life? That logic is still the same, your just chopping it up, and serving it too me on a different platter. All the same, You chose God and you live forever, if you dont, then you die, and thats all she wrote? That in itself is still asking, do you want cake? or death?
Cake or death?
Eddie Izzard made that quote and is a great line!!



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 01:20 AM
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What I feel what gives you free will is that although the future is known; you still have the will to do anything. If you yourself do not know the future, then it's just like free will; the only thing is, is that one being knows your fate.


And also, for those of you who think that you are being bribed to come to Heaven, I believe you are a little incorrect. Yes, you are bribed to come into Heaven; but only because God is not invulnerable to lonelieness. Nothing is. That's why he created us. But, God wanting you to be in Heaven with him does not have anything to do whether if Hell is more desireable than Heaven. Nothing at all. In fact, there is a particular passage in the Bible that says that God preparing a place for you, and only you when you die. He did not say in Heaven, and he did not say in Hell. If you really want to delve deep into this, I am saying that Heaven is just the same as Hell, but only for some people; for only people who's souls despise Christ. But still, God loves us enough to give us a place to be where we will be happy.

Picture that you are on a stranded Island, almost dying from lonelieness. You wished for somebody to be there with you, but then your wish came true. But, this person will hate you, forever. Would you rather be lonely or would you rather live with a person, stranded, without any hope of that person liking you at all? This is the same thinking about why God also gave us free will to not be in Heaven if our souls did not want to. You wouldn't want that one person on your stranded Island that hated you, right? Same thing goes for God.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

TechnoFan21



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 02:05 AM
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Has the debate been settled that God does not know everything about
the future? He'd be pretty bored if he knew exactly what would happen
to everyone, every second, in every universe through eternity, wouldn't
he? There would be no challenges, or surprises...ever.

Besides, what father would create children knowing in advance that
many of them would go to Hell? We have to use our common sense
here folks! If GOD IS LOVE and HE KNOWS EVERYTHING, then there
is no eternal condemnation for any of his creations. End of story as
far as I'm concerned. I'm a lifelong Christian, but getting wiser with
age. -cwm (chicago)



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by TechnoFan21
And also, for those of you who think that you are being bribed to come to Heaven, I believe you are a little incorrect. Yes, you are bribed to come into Heaven;

But still, God loves us enough to give us a place to be where we will be happy.


Incorrect, yet you say you are bribed to come into heaven? Whaa?

But the rest of your post made perfect sense to me
One mans heaven is another ones hell! I can work with that. And plus you might have taken me a bit wrong. I dont have a problem with Gods plan. My problem is the presit, church and those controling people with fear.
So dont take me as some person with a striking spear taking jabs at your belifes. I just know what I have been threw in my life, and I dont find peace in some mens heavens.
We are like water drops in an ocean, we are all one. And religon seems to divide us and break us apart from eachother. We have all lost our ways, and I dont think any one of us are right on this. But we all have our thoughts right?

Edit:late night, spelling check

[edit on 023131p://1819 by zysin5]



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 02:46 AM
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I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if I repeat anything.

This is the way I see it. I am actually a pagan, not a christian.

Dieties can be omnipotent. While yes, they can see future,past,present, and every atom in your body. They also have the choice not too. If they are omnipotent, then they have a choice not to be.

Just like a parent watching a child make a decision or action, knowing the consequences, but let the child do it so the child can learn from the experience.

My personal belief that we do have a path. That is a little pre-determined, but our decisions can take us other places.
Like a road trip where your destination is determined like the grand canyon, but you choose different roads to get there, take detours, stop to see the worlds largest omelette.

It is not the mistakes or achievements you make that matters. It is what you make of them. Do you learn from it? keep repeating it? accept responsibility and remedy it?blame others? learn compassion or empathy, or keep strolling along as it never happened. It is what you do with it that matters.

there is a plot. And you are supposed to grow with it. I am a firm believer that if a problem keeps persisting in your life, you haven't grasped what you are supposed to learn. ANd you need to take a different course of action. And it may not be one thing you are learning,it may be several. are you supposed to learn patience? acceptance? tolerance? forgiveness? healing?


IT is not strictlly good or bad actions that get you to "heaven' it is your ability to make the best of it, and become a better person. So yes, some events are pre-determined, but the free will comes in on how you react to it.

this also explains why there is bad in the world. There is a lesson for everyone, antagonist and victim combined.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 05:48 AM
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If person B truly believes in God. Then he has exercised his freewill in choosing God (the way of peace, mercy, love, kindness). Then person B knows that God is the author and finisher and can intervene and cause the gun not to fire, or make a way of escape that person B does not even perceive. Jesus proved that when he raised Lazarus from the dead.

Better than a parent who guides a child, God will guide.


Siren, are you saying you would actually test this idea?

Are you saying that all those people died in the WTC didn't ask god for help and NOT receive it nor deserve his help?
Do you seriously believe that quite alot of them weren't religeous throughout their lives?
But they still died in the WTC which makes your idea questionable at best.

There are also millions of other examples where god could have intervened to prevent death of good religious people, but didn't.


Also,
If god threatens people with hell if they fail to do and act as he requires to get into heaven, this is also an example of how god doesn't give free will. His will forces you to bend yours to prevent negative consequences. At the very least, the heaven/hell thing proves outside influence to effect your decision making.



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 07:19 AM
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Look im sure i have the answer here:

We have free will to make decisions, do whatever it is to do, etc. But since god's so omnipotent and omniscient/wahever it is, then obviously he can see the future and what choice you did/would actaully make. Ta Da. The End. Case Closed.. ;-P

What do you think?? ;-P



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 07:43 AM
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I'm just wandering how everyone knows so much about the secrets of life? To assume that a thought + an action equals damnation, and that we are unable to choose because God already knows the answer or choice we give is very irresposible.

You can easily prove your ability to make a choice. Keep reading or click it off. That is a choice. Can time travel or advanced alien technology also hamper your ability to make a decision? It sounds like a lot of people don't want to be responsible for their own choices or have been defeated by society and are hoping there is nothing they can do to improve their circumstance.

I would also be curious to know how so many people who can't make their own decisions can comprehend life and death, good and evil. In order to make some of the conclusions I have read refering to hell, and Gods presence or non-existence, there must be a lot of people with first hand knowledge of creation and destruction of life.

In order to claify everyones position I think we should start by everyone posting if they are going to heaven or hell, and then define the circumstances that existed at the time of their departue from earth and exactly what their destination is like. This is like trying to solve a math problem when you have pre-determined the answer and are just trying to make the variables balance.



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