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A heated "debate" with a Christian....

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posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 07:47 AM
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The freedom of choice is a kind of paroxysms that is shaking Christianity, not to mention Judaism and Islam. Each religion is trying to defend, analyze and interpret what is freewill, yet at the same time in doing so they very bases is collapsing. Buddhism and Hinduism, whose teaching are base on the freewill are accepting coexistence with other believe.
When you think about it, eastern religion never send any messenger or impose they view of god to any one or any country.
I will not assume that eastern religions are better then our religions but one think for sure they make much more sense then what we have.
The freedom of choice is maybe an illusion, science also don’t have freedom of choice. It is all regulated and planed in advance by evolution. We like to think that we have a choice so we can live a creative and fulfilling life, but what choice do we have when we never asked to come to life on the first place.
Must probably the question will remain open to the end of world and many new religion will feed on it to rise new hope for humanity.




posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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The first thing to take in account is the source. The Bible. This book contains contradiction after contradiction. If the bible is the inspired word of God, written by many yet composed by One...God Breathed (you get the picture). Then there can be no inaccuracies. Like I said the bible is full of contradictions, therefore the whole bible must be considered a false text. So the question remains, do we make our own choices in life or are they predetermined by a god according to the bible. Take out the option of the bible and the god in the bible and reason stands. We make our own choices in life, we are accountable for the paths we choose.

for some info on contradictions in the bible see:
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

For information on where the stories of the bible and jesus came from, see the first part of Zeitgeist the movie. It will blow your mind.
www.zeitgeistmovie.com...



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 09:36 AM
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It is just one of the many contradictions that when faced with, the people who believe it cannot answer.

OR try this one. In the first chapter of the KJV of the bible GOD comes along and creates the heavens and the earth and all of the living creatures including man. Then in the next Chapter The "Lord God" comes along and decides he is gonna create man again but this time a little differently.
Now I'm sure you can explain away the reasons for it but how can I trust a book that contradicts intelf or at the very least sets a stage for confusion in the first chapter of the first book and doesn't come with any type of manual to inform you what parts are meant to be taken literally and what parts are not.

Its like the same guy who writes the assembly manuals for IKEA aslo wrote the directions for properly worshiping God!



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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Its not often that I take the point of view of "lietral" Christian, but, for novelty's sak, I'm willing to try.

Firstly, the idea that God does not know the future seems to me to negate the Bible as a whole. So much of it is made up of prophecy, and prophecy is a statemnet about the future, not a guess. If guesswork was prophecy, then we would all be prophets.

The problem may lie in my falsely limiting the word omniscience. If you use "all-knowing perhaps it gets easier". If God created Man, He also created our DNA, and the instincts that form the basis upon which our free will is excercised. Contrary to what one poster said, the entire gamut of possibilities arising from the choices that Humans make, have made and will make in the future. There is certainly scope for a God who knows precisely the consequences of all our actions, and yet also knows the future of the framework in which these choices are made, i.e.: the Earth.

Perhaps the future of our planet, or the overal shape of the divine Plan, cannot be affected by the decisions that we make, and it is simply the quality of life in its entirety upon the Earth that we can influence. This is the only way I can see of reconciling the ideas of free will and omniscience.

Saturday night might have been more pleasant if I had come up with this then. Personally though, as a previous poster also said, the Easert religions and philosophies lack of anthropomorphisation sits much easier with me than their occidental counterparts. The inherent "rightness" of the Tao-Te-Ching combined with practical experience of deep meditation (not to mention my current predicament) mean that I am in the pleasant position of having some historical basis for what I believe, no longer characterising myself as atheist or agnostic and happily being able to laugh at people, pick holes in their beliefs and know that I am acting in accordance with most respected historical proponents of my "religion".



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 10:57 PM
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Having the ability to know the future does not mean that you have to use that ability on every occasion. If God chooses not to look into ones future and exercise foreknowledge of every decision then free will remains

To me it is like Schrodinger's cat. Once he chooses to look in the box, so to speak, the observer, God in this case, immediately knows the outcome, But if he chooses not to look free will remains, and we can choose what course to take.

I think his exercise of foreknowledge is selective and discretionary.

[edit on 24-7-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 24-7-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 24-7-2007 by Sparky63]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 11:13 PM
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I'm at work so i dont really have time to read every post, but...
If you are running into problems such as these, where nothing seems to make sense and everything is contradicting itself, then perhaps the BASE core belief is wrong.

You will find this in science, sometimes physicists, quantum theorists, historians etc are baffled by something because they are holding onto their core beliefs. Find a better formula, revise your history and look for alternatives, and start at the beginning again.

With god, what absolute core beliefs do we have as proofs? Pretty much NONE!
That's why looking around us for evidence of god in nature is the best we can do.

You will ALWAYS run into philosophical problems when dealing with the bibles god. Because it's wrong. I'm being blunt, it's just wrong.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 12:23 AM
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Just for argument's sake...

Say I had a vision, a dream or whatnot, of the next terrorist attack, and I knew how and where it was to go down. How could you prove that I was the force behind the attack? You couldn't. It might appear that because I had foreknowledge of the attack that I must have been involved, but it wasn't me that carried it out. Those that detonated the bomb did that on their own, by choice, not because of my knowing it was going to happen. I simply had prior knowledge of the event, I didn't cause it to happen.

I know that's not an exact parallel of the puzzle at hand, but just an angle to consider. Also, just so you know where I stand, I don't claim to know the answer to the question you posed.

If an omniscient God and free will do, in fact, exist together, I would have to chalk it up as being either beyond our level of comprehension, or at least beyond that of most. I would lean toward what Vipassana was saying, about it being outside of what we see as time passing. I have this whole theory about everything we experience, our whole existence itself is just a single instance, and that the easiest (but perhaps not always the only) way for us to experience it is in a linear or timeline fashion, if that makes sense. Anyway, that's just one theory. Kinda off topic, sorry.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 12:23 AM
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I am not a christian. But I do find it frusterating that everytime someone brings up a question, hypothetical or otherwise involving god, many people must chime in how god/bible is wrong. Can't we just discuss the point at hand? If you don't believe in god, think of it as a hypothetical question, a mind excerise, whatever. It starts with one person saying how god/bible is wrong, then comes the heated arguements of each side, completely ruining the OP thread/purpose.

I struggled with this very question when I was in church, and it has led me to pursue many different books and teachings, trying to figure out whats what in life. I could not come to terms with the idea of predistination without faulting god for the outcome.

Someone used the example of a rat in a maze. I think the person who made the maze is responsible for the consequences of putting the rat in the maze. If this person knew the rats personality, strengths/weaknesses perfectly, and knew this rat was smart and would get out, or dumb and perish within the maze, this person is then responsible. Free will was taken away from the rat when it was introduced to the maze. It had choices, different paths it could take, but having knowledge of the outcome and introducing the rat to the maze threw free will out the door IMO.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 12:44 AM
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It reallyu depends on how you look at the order of events. If we are born into god plan, that would seem to mean that there obviously cant be free will, because we're just god puppets. However it gets more tricky if you take the view in saying god has pyschic like abilities and is just viewing the outcome then that could point to freewill and a god. However this second option still has the looming question of if god is viewing the outcome before we are born are we truly making the decisions. Then of course you could say that we have free will and god knows the outcome, just the outcome changes with each decision. It becomes an unanswerable philsophical question, but still an interesting one.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 01:20 AM
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If God knows the whole of History and all events are part of some ineffable plan, then there is only one possible choice that any of us can make in any given situation.


The choice is: God or Satan

Once that choice is made the plan for your selection takes effect.

If things seem a blurr it is because the choice has not been made. People in between (on the fence) will have to eventually make that choice. Those who have been tricked will have an opportunity to correct their choice. God knows and is aware of the confusion Satan has inflicted on mankind.

Hope this helps to clairfy.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 01:42 AM
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1. String theory tells us there are possibly an infinite number of parallel universes.
2. The discoveries in the Bible Code imply that all of these alternate universes are coded in the text of the torah.
3. Implying in turn that all possible paths in life are pre-written with pre-written outcomes in an infinite system of possible final outcomes.

There's plenty of room for free will here.

The universe and time are written with numbers just like a computer program.
In a video game you may be given a few choices with a few possible outcomes. Just because the paths are pre-encoded in the program doesn't mean that you had no free will in choosing a path.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 02:01 AM
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this may sound lame, but as a chrisitian, i have dealth with this time and time again. The way i currently understand it is that God can, if he so chooses, know everything about you. That's not to say he has all that information sitting continously at the forefront of his "mind" The information is accessable, but that doesn't mean he's always looking at it. Kind of like RAM on a computer, it's right at his fingertips should he choose to access it, but even in his omniscience he can control it. . . . he can choose not to know. Not to forget, but i guess to not think about it.

And i've always also thought it's more of an understanding. I mean, there are times in the bible where people argue with God and persuade him to change his mind. I mean, come on, that's pretty rediculous don't you think? Someone changes gods mind.

If you read some old testament in arabic, you can see that there are differant words used for a rhetorical question. In english, it is emplied by tone and structure. In arabic, they actually use differant words to state that a question is rhetorical. Sometimes, when God asks people questions in the bible, it is in the rhetorical use. But often times, it is in a very "inform me, i don't know" type of question.

. . . . . preparing for people to tear this/me apart. . . .

deny ignorance? i'm trying. . . 15 cookies to the first person to call me ignorant.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by Karilla
"Just because there was only one possible outcome, it doesn't mean we didn't choose". A choice of one option is not a choice, is it?


First, good thread Karilla. I have read most of the posts and have seen things like if God knows we will go to hell then why create us cos that's evil and another that moves toward science or quantum physics etc etc – not sure how one is supposed to prove God with science – God created us, and we created science. Like trying to find Gold with stethoscope.

Ok, I am Catholic and this may seem pretty strange what I will say, I am not a fanatical Catholic but Catholic none the less, and I believe the bible was written by men, humans, that have human understanding not divine understanding. So bare with me the next couple of minutes.

What do I believe? (ok who cares, but humour me) "Hell" is a HUMAN creation. There are a number of reasons why this is not only my opinion. A good question is "why would God create us if he new we were going to hell?” that’s not showing us much mercy is it? God is merciful so why would he want us to suffer for eternity – why would he want our loved ones that pass to see us suffering in hell? THAT is not his style – he is MERCIFUL.

He doesn’t send us to hell – he has given us free choice. This free choice is not around whether we decide we want to cheat on our spouse or not BUT whether we decide to believe in God or not – THAT is the choice we will have to make – it’s the only real choice that affects much of what we do. Go ahead and sin – that’s up to you, we all sin to some extent or another but do we accept God as our Saviour and do we believe in him and in his son Jesus?

Source

2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
God in the ultimate act of mercy and love sent his perfect sinless Son to die our death. (Pay our penalty for sin). Every sin we have committed or will commit Christ has already died for. All we need to do is believe in God and accept this wonderful gift and we are guaranteed to spend eternity with God. What a wonderful truth!


So, what does that tell us, well MHO is that we will sin, we are already saved IF we believe in God - however there is probably a fine line we walk because if we believe in God we must not sin or we must ask forgiveness (that proves we believe in him) so when we die we will live; but if we do not believe in him, we will "die" we will not come back, our souls will not continue to live - we will also not go to hell - we will just no longer exist!



“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23


The wages of sin is DEATH - we know we will die in our physical form AND our SOUL will also die. IF we believe, our physical body will die BUT our soul will continue to live - ETERNAL Life.

That is why I do not believe he creates us to send to "Hell" - he gives us the choice to believe in him or not - if not, you die - simple.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by Siren
The choice is: God or Satan

Once that choice is made the plan for your selection takes effect.

If things seem a blurr it is because the choice has not been made. People in between (on the fence) will have to eventually make that choice. Those who have been tricked will have an opportunity to correct their choice. God knows and is aware of the confusion Satan has inflicted on mankind.

Hope this helps to clairfy.


This is part of the issue at hand, you say you have a choice between God or Satan? Its not a choice there Im sorry to say. On one side you have this. You either belive in our God or you will burn in hell..
Or you chose God and are forever in the loving clouds ect ect..

Honestly is that a choice? Or a bribe?
I dont want to belive in "your" god or satan.
So they say if you dont you burn in hell!! If I chose my own way of life that hurts no one, and live as a good person then why do I still have to suffer hell?

When you say choice, you had best understand that churches say, " You will go to hell if you dont belive in GOD!" (their God, not my God)

Hell has many levels as I have understood, and those who dont belive will still end up in hell, no matter what level it is.. No matter how you want to chop this up and sugar coat it, its wrong and its not freewill.

I have freewill becasue I dont have to chose A or B. I am not caught up in the dogmatic veiws. But some would say no, you have to chose!!
No I dont have too! and thats what freewill is all about.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by zysin5
This is part of the issue at hand, you say you have a choice between God or Satan? Its not a choice there Im sorry to say. On one side you have this. You either belive in our God or you will burn in hell..
Or you chose God and are forever in the loving clouds ect ect..


What is the difference between "your" God and "our" God? God is God. The one creator. Are there different creators? Some may have a different name for him but he is still the ONE creator? So God is God IMHO. Zulus call god iNkosi or uNkulunkulu, but he is still God, the one creator.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 03:12 AM
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we shall suffice to say that HELL = "the worst thing any sane person could imagine". some people have imagined it to be "the burning lake". the truest interpretation i have come across is "total separation from GOD".

the OP's destiny/will question beggs a deeper question: why should an individual not desire "total separation from GOD"?

the very definition of "individual" implies such a total separation!

therefore: GOD is not "condemning" them to anything....he is merely giving them exactly what they want. via the mechanism of freewill.

some "individuals" simply do not want to be with god....i say: go for it! it's all yours! insanity is yours for the taking. desire = scarcity = death


dkp



(edit to add shameless link to outside thread, etc...)


[edit on 25-7-2007 by tgidkp]

[edit on 25-7-2007 by tgidkp]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by tgidkp
some "individuals" simply do not want to be with god....i say: go for it! it's all yours! insanity is yours for the taking.


Absolutely, i would never force or even try and sway someone into believing anything at all. It's a personal thing and each to his own i guess. Perhaps i will be sinning by not trying to "save" someone
but i am not a bible pusher/punter and each person has their own choice to make and the answers are out there.

[edit on 25/7/2007 by shearder]



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 05:58 AM
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God could not have given us free will because
Free will would allow anyone to make a decision without consequence.
If there is a consequence, that would mean an outside source could influence your will thus negating your free will.

So,
If you don't do what I want, I'm going to flood the earth and kill you all...
that certainly would be an outside influence, wouldn't it?

Also, the whole ark thing is impossible anyway.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 06:19 AM
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Free will is just that. Drinking an entire bottle of vodka would have consequences, too, just by natural occurance. God tries to help us make right decisions. Such as "Thou shalt not kill" and when we give ourselves over to child sacrifices and orgies, God gives us plenty of consequences(i.e. Babylon, Nineveh and Rome.)



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by jfj123
God could not have given us free will because
Free will would allow anyone to make a decision without consequence.
If there is a consequence, that would mean an outside source could influence your will thus negating your free will.



I don't think free will means freedom from consequences,
If a mechanic tells you that you need to put oil in your engine to keep it running, but you exercise "free will" and choose not to, you will pay the consequences when your engine seizes and you are asking your brother in law for a ride.

THe Mechanic knew ahead of time what the outcome would be if you failed to follow his instructions. This does not make him responsible when your engine is ruined. You alone are responsible for your actions, decisions, and the consequences of them.

[edit on 25-7-2007 by Sparky63]



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