I would love to see that disclosure agreement in writing... I wonder if its online somewhere?

I have asked several military people I know, but can't get a written copy of those either... seems its more of an interview really

Hmmm must be somewhere seems like a mission...

I don't know much about secret UFO satellites tracking sputnik, but I may be able to help you with the strange radio transmissions. I'm in the USAF and specialize in space communications. Maybe your tax dollars can show some merit here These echos and reflections are caused by naturally occurring phenomena. There are many different ways this could happen and any number of factors come into play. The main factor is the frequency range used for transmission. Sometimes really strange things happen with atmospheric ducting also. Ducting is when temperature differences create zones in the atmosphere where signals can literally bounce around for varying periods of time. In other cases solar flares ionize the upper layers of the atmosphere and can create reflections, these reflective zones will last for weeks sometimes. Space communication is a tricky business. As cool as it would be to find some alien craft orbiting and sending codes about where its from ... I can't see it in this case.

The other UFO he saw was when he was an Air Force pilot in Germany in the 1950's AKA the Cold War. I find it absurd that the military would have less secrecy about what went on on the border of the Iron Curtain than NASA.

I just dislike any line of reasoning that eliminates the need for evidence. Like I said before, if the guy says he saw a UFO, he's telling the truth. If he says he didn't see one, he's lying. Even if you're correct, there's no way to prove it so it's all becomes opinion.


noise515- Thanks for the info. I knew there was something about the signal basically being boucned around for a while in the atmosphere, but didn't know it had anything to do with temeprature.

Jonathan Gray believes the satellite was actually built by humans during the highly advanced pre-flood era. He cites a lot of archeological evidence to support the idea that humans were in fact more advanced in ancient times than we care to believe.

www.world-mysteries.com...

As for Phillip K. Dick by all accounts it appears he became demon possessed at some point towards the end of his life. However the demon proceeded to order his life quite remarkably, giving him strange mental powers and even unusual medical knowledge that helped saved his son's life, but that too is another story.

While Dick was certainly, odd, I suspect there is more truth to what he's ever said than anything else.

It seems unlikely, given the natural randomness of it all that people who have taken illegal and some non-illegal substances (benzos, sedatives, etc, actual, prescribed legal drugs in other words) have reached many SIMILAR or THE SAME conclusions as to the reality of their 'visions' and otherworldly phenomenon.

Could it be THEY requested Dick take these substances? If you were trying to establish contact with a human that had no natural affinity with the un-mundane, how would you suggest it? Given that religion (OLD RELIGIONS, like American Indians, and people like the Innuit and other peoples like those native to India who mysteriously vanished etc) and drugs were intertwined, and that some places like the Oracle at Delphi have been 'proven' as natural occuring gasses, but the visions and prophecies were also taken as natural and accurate at their time, what if drugs play an important role in it all?

Seems more than coincidental to me to be honest that there IS a rather strange link between genius and madness and people who can see/hear the otherworldly and their natural levels of things like serotonin and other naturally occuring bodily substances (most drugs have some basis in bodily 'need' in that they work because there is something similar inside us all). Perhaps the door swings both ways?

I only heard recently about the 'tripped out ape' theories, but I would wonder if perhaps the aliens have communicated with us for a long time. Religion, science, it all seems to intertwine at points, maybe pharmacopia is the alien's natural means of communication? (I personally DON'T think aliens are alien in nature however, they are either naturally occuring and FAR FAR older than us and have been here forever, or they are 'gods/daemons' or interdimensional entities that we cannot comprehend because they don't have the same physics as us so everything they do and their (to us) warped sense of self and good/evil seems unnatural or magical to us).

Just in case it's not clear, apparently Dick was "told" or otherwise knew that his newborn son required a life-saving hernia operation and rushed him to the hospital.

That's something that always gets me about these stories. The guy sounds totally nuts, and then something that is really undeniable happens. After all, it's possible that he got really lucky as his mind turned to pudding, or there was something legitimate going be, be it alien or not. While it's easy to say "well, statistically, someone's bound to get it right," but how do you even do an analysis of how often you should be able to guess at emergency surgery? If you're just taking samples, then you're going to include all the legit "paranormal" happeneings and just call them "normal."

Sorry, bit of a rant.

Well let us put it like this.

If you or I saw a ufo ... just because we don't have any evidence, does that mean we didn't see it? No. We still saw it, but people don't wish to believe.

Does that mean we trust everyone? No. Take their story with a grain of salt, but don't discount everyone, because that is an excuse and doesn't refute the evidence of an eye-witness.

Eye-witnesses are used in the courts to convict criminals every day. So, to pick and choose which ones you discredit is nonsense. Millions of people have saw 'something', many videos of un-provable images. Are some of the stories and some of the evidence fake? Yes. Are all of them ... now THAT is a huge conspiracy ... bigger than any other ever.

My point, if you trust no-one, then no-one should ever trust you. You must not be credible yourself and/or rather paranoid. If someone from high ranks comes forward ... they must have gone crazy, hallucinating, something to discredit their honor or integrity.

Where is the proof on non-existence? Well, that is impossible today, if ever. You would have to travel the entire universe, covering all spectrums of light and sound to disprove the existence of life elsewhere ... even then, it could exist in a way we yet to understand.

The burden of proof no longer is in the hands to prove they are out there.

Even Zorgon I believe admits to something out there from the moon photos ... and from other post I get the idea he/she thinks the earth is not in their interests. I could be wrong, but I have gotten that feeling from posts they have written.

If I told you I went to school, do I have to show you my diploma to prove it? or is it ok that I just said so? If your child says they have witnessed a ufo and describes it in great detail, are they just pulling your leg?

What would it take, other than your own two eyes to believe it? Any video or picture will be debunked no matter how real it is ... even more so now since most cameras of both types are becoming increasingly higher percent digital media.

It doesn't matter really. Belief is just that, personal and you can choose what is your own. I know what I, close friends, and family have witnessed in our lifetime. I trust the people I love. I try to have a bit of faith left in humanity. Do I believe every word spoken on here? No. Do I give some benefit of the doubt? Most of the time I do try, or I humor someone for a bit and pay attention, and if I catch something inconsistent, then I take names and keep that in mind next time.

I am less likely to belief an organization that consistently keeps secrets and throws the fact in our face ... I understand the need for a certain amount on certain levels ... but what I have noticed is more than acceptable from many places ... especially NASA, a public funded business that we have access to very little of the the content and activities. If you think NASA workers are not exposed to classified things, and given non-disclosure agreements, fine by me. I highly doubt that to be true. As far as the military, there are quite a few who have spoken up about seeing ufo's, but again, no one listens, it fades, or they are discredited/ignored.

It is all a bit funny to me, and why I don't care too much, I still live my daily life as I choose and happily I might add.

It's a good question, but in this case I believe that it supports the conclusion of demon possession. Apparently the type of demon you get may impart various 'abilities' to the one possessed. Hitler was known to have a very powerful demon. Shamans and various pagan priests would seek possession precisely because of the power they could seemingly command. Indeed the very word for witchcraft in the Greek New Testament is the same word which we know call pharmacy. Witchcraft was synonymous with drug use.

I believe that Dick became possessed precisely because of his penchant for drug abuse and his otherwise immoral behavior. As can be seen in many of the documented cases (see for example M Scott Peck's work), the possession occurs after a deliberate moment of moral compromise. Poor Dick went through such an experience and received a terrible reward.

This may not be much help with the historical aspect of this subject, but for tracking and identifying current satellites check out this site:

science.nasa.gov...

Did anyone else notice this post?



That is an interesting article and could have been where this story originated. I especially like the name of the defense group, "Dark Fence". Coincidence?

I decided simply to add this to thss thread instead of starting a new one, as I think it fits in pretty well. They are three papers Robert A. Freitas, a lawyer with a degree in physics and psycholgoy who now works in molecular manufacturing. Both papers are over 20 years old, so while the science might be a tad out of date, the point remains. And I think it goes to show that the arguments scientists have now voer the Fermi paradox have been around for a long time.

Fermi's Paradox: A Real Howler - Discusses how the Fermi Paradox isn't a airtight as some would say, and touches upon how we haven't explored enough of the Earth, let alone the solar system, to say that there are no ancient probes waiting for us.


Extraterrestrial Intelligence in the Solar System: Resolving the Fermi Paradox - Further discussion on possible alien artifacts within our solar system.

I found this story about the soviets lauching two sputniks and the one we saw the first time in the night sky was actually a rocket bootser because you couldn't see the actual satellite with the naked eye. Don't know how true this story is but check it out.
Secret's Of the 1957 Sputnik Lauch

www.geocities.com...

Nice post OP, gonna read up on all this stuff too! Fagged and starred just for you.



[edit on 11/4/2007 by Solarskye]

reply to post by Esoterica

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It is for these reasons that I keep an eye on our wild eyed brethren who postulate some far out things in Moon and Mars photos. While the chance of finding something is small, it is not zero.

The fact is that some leftover item would be easier to spot as an anomaly on one of these than here on Earth, simply because anything artificial would have to be of either very limited human contact, or alien.

We need better pictures that everyone can reasonably think are free of "control" problems.

Black Knight is enormous, the size of one of the cigar-shaped mother ship type UFOs people report. It was far beyond the known capacity of anyone in the 1940s or 1950s to put up there and its geostationary polar position, which it corrected from time to time, lasted for a long period before it changed to a new geostationary orbit.

There is information on this, but the only information that has survived a ruthless purge is in the fiction category. Anyone writing about this as fact tends to tumble down a flight of stairs or throw themselves out of a fourth floor apartment through a locked window and so on.

Just looking up some old stuff thought I would add this to your comment...

A couple of old paintings

Annunciation by Crivelli Carlo



Baptism Of Christ by Aert DeGelder






[edit on 25-7-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by Esoterica

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Phillip K Dick is a great author, but he did love to get off his face on LSD.

It took me some time to take this thread off the back burner and actually work on it... (A request for info brought it to mind)

I have believed this for some time... and it ties into the Akashic Records of Buddhism... It is also interesting that Aldebaran comes up in this... Aldebaran is the planet the VRIL society was supposed to have contact with in the NAZI UFO stories...

The more I look the more things go in circles and link together...

I wanted to add this scenario to your thought though...


The discovery of the Liquid Fuel Rocket at almost the same time by A Russian (Konstantin E. Tsiolkovsky), a German (Dr. Hermann Oberth) and an American (Dr. Robert H. Goddard). These three nations became the rocket super powers... They had no contact initially when they came up with the idea and Tsiolkovsky didn't even get credit for being first because he never published outside of Moscow...

Now THAT hits home more than your ZERO

So did Timothy Leary... and he had some interesting ideas

Like Peyote used by the Shamans... LSD used under control can produce some interesting results... and since it is not being studied... we have no idea if it may or may not increase our abilities and let us access parts of the brain we know nothing about

So there

You know this also puts an interesting slant on this...

YouTube Link

So now we have Black Knight Visits...

1927
1960
2004





And Arthur C. Clark, ex CIA operative , Writer extraordinaire giving us Monoliths floating in space and "Rendezvous with Rama", may his journey be an interesting one

[edit on 25-7-2008 by zorgon]

Thanks... Here is another one that should interest you and is relevant to the thread..

DF5AI.net - Amateur Radio Propagation Studies (ARPS)

www.df5ai.net...

These guys actually wrote to Duncan Lunan



And here is the report your link above led me to...

The Five Most Likely Explanations for Long Delayed Echoes
First created 16 March 2004, last updated 15 May 2007
Mystical delayed radio signals received in Oslo in 1927
© Sverre Holm (LA3ZA) University of Oslo
heim.ifi.uio.no...