Theory: Revolt, Civil War, or Coup de'tat?, page 1

Conspiracy theorists around the word are in general agreement that social and political forces in the United States appear to be gathering with an impetus towards social unrest or civil disorder. Much of the American conspiracy community seems to think that America is headed for a defining crisis which will set the domestic political tone for the rest of the century. What could this defining event be?

Social disruption might arise from an economic down turn, or a sudden terrorist attack. Americans might turn on each other out of fear in the wake of a particularly visible and vicious terror strike. They might also turn on each other during hard times, when the money supply dries up and basic foods and medicines are hard to come by due to rising unemployment and bankruptcy which disables the national economy.

Civil disorder may result from the fallout of a specific political action which turns out to be much to unpopular. The actions taken by Federal, State, and local governments to clamp down on domestic terror threats could backfire if they are seen to favor the elites while placing the average citizen under a harsher regime. Localized revolts may be possible. In the long run, conspiracy theorists aren’t afraid to entertain the notion of a revolution.

In either case, political thinkers of all kinds will lok at the U.S. Federal government for signs of cooperation or domination. Members of the House and Senate will play a key role in determining whether or not the Federal response to these potential problems is hostile or friendly to the population they were elected to serve. The Presidency of George W. Bush has lead many conspiracy buffs to wonder if there might not be a third possibility. Could a sitting President over-step their constitutional authority to stay in office? If (hypothetically) this were to happen, how would it play out?

Revolt, civil war, or coupe de'tat? No matter which of these we entertain fo the purposes of harmless discussion, one thing remains clear. The shape of things to come may not be to our liking. Even if we discount these three possiblities, it's important to understand that we have an economic down turn in our not-too-distant future that might accidentally spark any one of these unwanted events.

We discuss these things here with an eye towards avoiding them. We probe the murky depths of this dismal proposition in the hopes of finding solutions that we can share with others. There is a segment of the conspiracy community that sees these events as 'inevitable.' Some go so far as to say that they are pre-ordained. There are more than a few biblical scholars on ATS who make the case that what we're about to face was foretold more than two thousand years ago. No matter how you regard these potential events, its important to understand that they are only potentials, and not absolute certainties.

My purpose in developing this discussion thread is to allow us to take the gloves off...as much as we can within ATS guidelines. We are guests here, and its incumbent upon us to observe the rules as laid down by the site owners. This is their crib, so let's not mess it up. You'll find lots of information about me in the ATS Tinwiki. My own publsihed theory and predictions are a matter of record. T & C's allow me to talk about what I've done in general terms. The rest you'll need to find out for yourself. Google is a good thing.

I'd like to encourage you to post your essays in this thread. Link to your podcasts, too. Take your time and think it through before you type, and don't be afraid to grind on your post for a few days before sharing with us. In the months to come, I'll be adding material to this thread as well as the others in this forum. This is a serious discussion, and it's not always going to make you feel good. At some point in their history, every nation faces a problem that is like what we're talking about here. The forces that drive us toward this 'event' manifest themselves in the most real of real conspiracies. They serve us, or we serve them. They'll make sure of that.


[edit: title - spelling, at member's request]

[edit on 21-7-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

The following Item from Raw Story dot-com caught my eye, and I'd like to share it with you as part of this theory discussion.

Old-line Republican warns 'something's in the works' to trigger a police state

Published: Thursday July 19, 2007

Thom Hartmann began his program on Thursday by reading from a new Executive Order which allows the government to seize the assets of anyone who interferes with its Iraq policies.

He then introduced old-line conservative Paul Craig Roberts -- a former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Reagan who has recently become known for his strong opposition to the Bush administration and the Iraq War -- by quoting the "strong words" which open Roberts' latest column: "Unless Congress immediately impeaches Bush and Cheney, a year from now the US could be a dictatorial police state at war with Iran."

"I don't actually think they're very strong," said Roberts of his words. "I get a lot of flak that they're understated and the situation is worse than I say. ... When Bush exercises this authority [under the new Executive Order] ... there's no check to it. It doesn't have to be ratified by Congress. The people who bear the brunt of these dictatorial police state actions have no recourse to the judiciary. So it really is a form of total, absolute, one-man rule. ... The American people don't really understand the danger that they face."

Roberts said that because of Bush's unpopularity, the Republicans face a total wipeout in 2008, and this may be why "the Democrats have not brought a halt to Bush's follies or the war, because they expect his unpopular policies to provide them with a landslide victory in next year's election."

However, Roberts emphasized, "the problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Cheney and Rove and the Republicans are ignorant of these facts, or it assumes that they are content for the Republican Party to be destroyed after Bush has his fling." Roberts believes instead that Cheney and Rove intend to use a renewal of the War on Terror to rally the American people around the Republican Party. "Something's in the works," he said, adding that the Executive Orders need to create a police state are already in place.

"The administration figures themselves and prominent Republican propagandists ... are preparing us for another 9/11 event or series of events," Roberts continued. "Chertoff has predicted them. ... The National Intelligence Estimate is saying that al Qaeda has regrouped. ... You have to count on the fact that if al Qaeda's not going to do it, it's going to be orchestrated. ... The Republicans are praying for another 9/11."

Hartmann asked what we as the people can do if impeachment isn't about to happen. "If enough people were suspicious and alert, it would be harder for the administration to get away with it," Roberts replied. However, he added, "I don't think these wake-up calls are likely to be effective," pointing out the dominance of the mainstream media.

"Americans think their danger is terrorists," said Roberts. "They don't understand the terrorists cannot take away habeas corpus, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution. ... The terrorists are not anything like the threat that we face to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution from our own government in the name of fighting terrorism. Americans just aren't able to perceive that."

Roberts pointed out that it's old-line Republicans like himself, former Reagan associate deputy attorney general Bruce Fein, and Pat Buchanan who are the diehards in warning of the danger. "It's so obvious to people like us who have long been associated in the corridors of power," he said. "There's no belief in the people or anything like that. They have agendas. The people are in the way. The Constitution is in the way. ... Americans need to comprehend and look at how ruthless Cheney is. ... A person like that would do anything."

----------------------------
There is an existing ATS discussion thread concerning this article, but I'm showing it to you here in teh context of the discussions going on in this forum.

I myself do think its unlikely that this will actually happen, but I'm not going to rule it out altogether. The impliations are staggering. If an informal coupe de'tat of this kind did take place, it might very well result in some sort of civil disorder. None of us can know for sure what the full extent of the uprising would be. Once might speculate that militias of all sorts would choose to go in to hiding.

Conspiracy theorists around the world have speculated that a takeover of some type was pssible within the United States. Many of the executive orders signed by George W. Bush have only added fuel to the proverbial fire. Federal authority has been so vastly expanded over the last six years that it takes a real effort to step back and take it all in. Patriots from all corners of America swear that "it just wouldn't be that easy."

Are they wrong? Would it really be just that easy for a sitting President to sieze power? Regrettably, the answer is "yes." What you see presented in this article is just one scenario. Those of you who have read my work are familiar with other options. For now, let's focus on what the author of this piece talks about.

War with Iran, no mater how it breaks out, may trigger the activation of terror cells here in the United States. There's no doubt that we've amassed a considerable capability to fight terror on our own soil, but could we do it without martial law? Could we do it without further expanding the scope and scale of Federal authority? The author of this piece, quoting his source, seems to think the answer is "no."

[edit on 21-7-2007 by Justin Oldham]

Last year, we took note of the fact that the U.S. Military was training in American cities to combat civil disorder.

"The official story seems to be that these maneuvers will prepare our troops for battle overseas. If that's true, why not use a joint services training center like those which have recently opened?"

Justin be warned your about to get what you asked for.

Introduction
This essay is an response to Justin Oldham post concerning the possibility of an revolt , civil war, social unrest or coupe d'etat taking place in the US. First of all I will deal with the players that could influence the cause and outcome of the events examined.

The Players
To start with lets look at the relationship between the US government and corporate interests . The relationship between the US government and corporate interests has been called Iron Triangles or Washington Triangles. US politicians are responsible for awarding of contracts to private firms , the regulations if any the private sector faces and other areas of authority. Now the same private firms also use loop holes in the campaign financing laws to give funds or support US politicians. The politicians are being financial supported by the people who they are spouse to be overseeing .
Late on I will reveal US leaders relationships with private sector and how the private sector influences people opinion.

The other demographic that could play an important role is the large illegal alien population in the US which has also linked to the private sector in terms of cheap labor. For now just bear in mind the sheer number of illegal aliens in the US and the fact they do have political support.
Note to the reader illegal emigration wont appear in every scenario discussed here.

Civil War Part one
First of all lets examine the relationship between politicians and corporate interests. After that the next issue will be the influence the media has on peoples opinions. So hang in there and grab some popcorn while I get started.

Relationship between politicians and the private sector
The situation can be best illustrated by exactly what Ike warned against and stated as the permanent arms industry in his farewell address. Today the the permanent arms industry is of course known as the military industrial complex . The military industrial complex has manifested itself in more then one way.
I will now present an example of the military industrial complex in action.
As of July 2007 it is estimated that the one hundred eighty thousand civilian contractors outnumber the number of US troops in Iraq by twenty thousand boots on the ground. Now that may seem like such an bad thing or even an problem until you some estimates put the cost to the tax payer as much as two trillion dollars. Even if you go with more conservative estimates there is still an awful of tax payer dollars being spend maintaining the so called Washington Triangles.

So you may be inclined to think that people would be up in arms figuratively and perhaps literally when it comes to this issue WRONG !
So how do the corporate interests and politicians prevent the population from asking questions ?
This is where the media plays its part nicely and there are no prizes for guessing who owns the major media outlets in the US. Yep you can be assured that even thou defense contractors and the news networks aren't owned by the same people the media is hardly going to question there own kind.

The media influence on how people think
Note this next section assumes that TV is still the dominant medium.
If you think that people don't take everything on the TV news as fact here is something to ponder. It is said that even when people know that an TV show is fictional the structure and portray of characters and professionals still influences peoples outlook and preconceived notions. This is worth bearing mind in this context because ideas can be put across to the view in subtle ways. If your still reading it means you are bearing with me which is good because I am going to further into the effects of TV.

Here on ATS I often posted the opinion that people have been dumb down by watching the TV news or something to that effect. Well there was at least one study conducted in the 1970s seem to prove in short that television effects the likes of Adult creativity ,ability to think outside the square and kids reading skills in an negative manner. Now remember anyone who has had access to an TV has been subjected to its negative effects in various dosages.

The best example of the media at work is the recent coverage of Pairs Hilton jail time. Pairs managed to attract more media coverage then the deaths of US troops. Now that we know that commercial TV is driven by ratings so if on going soap opera that is Pairs Hilton wasn't popular with viewers the TV news networks might be forced into dealing with issues that effect America future.

Now to the heart of the matter
Will there be an Civil War in the US within my life time ?
My answer is NO.
I have kept the time line within my lifetime because one hundred years after my death the political and cultural landscape may have altered enough by events that take place after my death that lay the seed for an Civil War.

Going by the definition provided by Justin above it just doesn't seem like that elements of the American population will turn on each other . People care more about the antics of Pairs Hilton then they do about the real events and situations that effect them . In order for an Civil War to take place people have to be extremely dissatisfied with elements of the local population and government. The Conspiracy theorists on ATS and those who question the stats quo are an minority slice of the population.

Understandably people tend to live busy lives and they don't have the time to examine in depth every issue that effects there future and then there is the fact that some people simply don't care about such things. So they come home and watch the TV news and maybe take what they see as “news” painted by those have an vested interest in the population seeing an certain picture.

All of this leads to the stats quo and people not asking questions of the system and there leaders and fellow Americans actions.

Next up in part two I will deal with Social Unrest . Please be patient and be prepared to wait an few days essay writing isn't my strong nor do I do it such a thing very often .


Sources
www.polisci.ccsu.edu...
www.latimes.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.nursingadvocacy.org...
world.std.com...
thinkprogress.org...

One threat is Theocracy, or the attempt by some Americans to turn our republic form of Government into a religious based one. Right now the Republican Party is very much a Christian party, it’s there Goal IMO to turn the USA into a Theocracy, and this to me would cause a Civil War

Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost. As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society.

According to acclaimed journalist and television host Bill Moyers,

True, people of faith have always tried to bring their interpretation of the Bible to bear on American laws and morals ... it's the American way, encouraged and protected by the First Amendment. But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties. The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is, and they are driving American politics, using God as a a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on.
theocracywatch

The Coup de'tat, is also very likely, with Bush’s executive orders, all that needed for him to assume the role of dictator is a stroke of a pen, this IMO would result in a Revolution, or a Civil War because I believe the Religious Right would support this, since most dictatorships in history has ruled with strict social “political correctness” or morally based laws, sometimes based on religious beliefs, ex: sobriety.

Really IMHO all the above could happen, and they could all happen at the same time.
Other things that could provide a spark are National ID and Gun control. In 1999 if you told me the USA could be facing such problems within 10 years I would have told you that your insane, but look how far we have fallen.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

---

In my opinion it would serve the US Government right if people were to rise up. It has always been said that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and it is unfolding right before our eyes. As it stands we have a political office that only serves the rich and powerful, they do not take into account the masses that helped to make those people rich and powerful. We have a president and vice president that do not believe in checks and balances, we have senators and congressman who only listen to lobbyists and we do our best as a country to stick our noses into every conflict around the globe.

Our election process is a joke because the popular vote does not count as in the 2000 election, we spend money like water in other countries to take care of political interests instead of using it to help our own people. Catrina is a prime example of this as well as the health care system we currently have. We have sections of our own country that make some third world countries look good, we have overcrowded prisons where the prisoners are treated better than the millions of homeless roaming the streets. I could go and on but these issues are just a few of the reasons people are not happy with our government.

In the end it will come down to who wants it more, us or the money grubbers we elected. People have to understand that they have more power than the government because we have the numbers to back it up. The only problem however is that so many people do not see it that way. We have forgotten that as a country we rebelled against England for a lot of the same things that are happening today. We fought for our freedom to be heard as a people then and it looks like if it could happen again. I myself hope the greedy turds that work for us pull their heads out and see that rebellion is a possibility before it gets any more out of hand. What a lot of them as leaders have forgotten is that you can't lead if you have no one to lead.

I hope that our government finally looks around and sees that the people that live here are waking like a sleeping giant and they will be hard pressed to sing it back to sleep before all hell breaks loose.

Thank you for your time, I would really like to discuss this topic more in the future.

Originally posted by rwdavis
Thank you for your time, I would really like to discuss this topic more in the future.

That's why this thread exhists. It's a ticklish topic, and it needs to be considered with a level head. Thare several different ways you can look at this. It may sound good to say that "it would serve the governmenr right if..." Trouble is, there are better ways for our leaders to learn their civic lesssons, or take their social punishments.

ATS members generally agree that U.S. politicians do exploit terrorism. It's become so normal that we expect it. As the economic situation worsens, we should expect them to exploit that, too. Cenatralized power is a tough addiction to break.

Force of arms should be our last resort. You apologize if you offend somebody. You can make amends if you break something. You can't take it back if you kill somebody, or put the torch to a city (even if it Washington D.C.). If we're going to hope for anything right now, it should be reforms that allow os to build towards a better future.

Don't confuse my words for pacifism. We have a lot to think about. That's because we have a lot to lose. Over the next ten years, as things get worse, we'll be faced with opportunities to speak positively and to act positively to avoid some of the repercussions brought on by our selfish elites.

In the weeks to come, I'd like to spend some time in this thread (and others) to consider what those positive actions might be.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by Justin Oldham]

reply to post by Justin Oldham

---

Thank you for taking time to respond to me. I guess I was a little off the cuff when I wrote my response. I do however take a big exception to our government and how things have gotten out of hand. I find it hard to believe that the people we elect into office can look someone in the eye and flat out lie about issues that need to be resolved. It is really hard to look at someone on television who is asking for your vote to become president and not think that they will be no better than the last person that held the office. I am not saying that all who are elected have no souls and are money grubbing but from what I have seen and read it seams that most are.

I served in the army for four years and am proud to have done so, I also believe that it would be a tragedy to have soldiers have to turn their guns on the people they are sworn to protect. I would really like to believe that those in government can reform enough to finally eliminate corruption and push lobbyists out of the government circle for good. I just don't see it happening in my lifetime.

I know that maybe I should not take the issue to heart as much as I do but I know that things need to change. I just wish most of the country was not so distracted by money, i-pods and texas holdem.

Thanks again, rwdavis.

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