reply to post by grover
"It is a sin to be silent when it is your duty to protest." Abraham Lincoln
I wonder if this is not a “made up” quote suitable for our times? I’m not hearing Lincoln talk much about SIN. Then I’m reminded
of this famous poetry
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
German Lutheran Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) This version is said to be the one preferred by the author. From Wikipedia.
Foot Note: According to Holocaust scholar Robert Michael, beliefs such as those held by Niemöller made even Nazi victims into Holocaust
collaborators: "Martin Niemoeller in his radically antisemitic August 1935 sermon noted that the Jews would not be released from their suffering
until they converted, Jewish suffering being 'proof' that Jesus was God.
The essential reason the Jews were cursed was because they 'brought the Christ of God to the Cross' . . These kinds of statements are a result of
traditional antisemitism and beliefs such as these corrupted average people as well as the elite and made them all not just victims of Nazis but
active or passive collaborators in the Holocaust." According to Dr. Michael, Martin Niemoeller agreed with the Nazi's position on the Jewish
question. From Wikipedia
[edit on 9/25/2007 by donwhite]
Clinton? Obama? or Edwards? Who Will It Be?, page 9
privacy
reply posted on 25-9-2007 @ 08:59 PM by grover
reply to post by donwhite
I remember it on an anti poster in the 60's and the story as I recall it went that there were many protests in both the north and DC at the start of the war... I know there was a huge one in NYC at the time... and someone commented to Lincoln that their actions were treasonous and his response was that "It is a sin to be silent when it is your duty to protest." It rings true to me because Lincoln did not take himself too seriously and was always questioning his actions.
It may be a made up quote but that is the tale as I understand it.
One thing I do know is you would never hear bush minor saying that.
I remember it on an anti poster in the 60's and the story as I recall it went that there were many protests in both the north and DC at the start of the war... I know there was a huge one in NYC at the time... and someone commented to Lincoln that their actions were treasonous and his response was that "It is a sin to be silent when it is your duty to protest." It rings true to me because Lincoln did not take himself too seriously and was always questioning his actions.
It may be a made up quote but that is the tale as I understand it.
One thing I do know is you would never hear bush minor saying that.
reply posted on 26-9-2007 @ 04:16 AM by Justin Oldham
No, you did not read that wrong. Click on this link,
and be amazed.
reply posted on 26-9-2007 @ 05:53 AM by xpert11
reply to post by donwhite
Traditionally doesn't the incoming president get a tour of the White House ?
Surely that would be a time where a member of the incoming president staff could get the lay of the land as needed. Its not like Hillary has or is campaigning from a position completely out of government. Hillary voted for the war to begin with so she must have a pretty good grip on the situation. Apart from voting for the war the same goes for other policy areas .
Traditionally doesn't the incoming president get a tour of the White House ?
Surely that would be a time where a member of the incoming president staff could get the lay of the land as needed. Its not like Hillary has or is campaigning from a position completely out of government. Hillary voted for the war to begin with so she must have a pretty good grip on the situation. Apart from voting for the war the same goes for other policy areas .
reply posted on 26-9-2007 @ 06:53 AM by donwhite
reply to post by xpert11
Traditionally doesn't the incoming president get a tour of the White House? Surely that would be a time where a member of the incoming president staff could get the lay of the land as needed. Its not like Hillary has or is campaigning from a position completely out of government. Hillary voted for the war to begin with so she must have a pretty good grip on the situation. Apart from voting for the war the same goes for other policy areas.
Absolutely. In fact, we have codified what used to be a custom or tradition into a law. The transition from one administration to the next. Each side, incoming and outgoing, has a counterpart. The same goes for each of the cabinet departments and agencies. The FBI and CIA directors are appointed for a 10 year term and would not be involved. That story was fabricated by Bill Sammon, puppet to master Rupert Murdoch. Mainly to work mischief especially on the www where rumors exceed facts by 10 to 1.
See my earlier post for comments re Hillary and the War on Terror vote.
Traditionally doesn't the incoming president get a tour of the White House? Surely that would be a time where a member of the incoming president staff could get the lay of the land as needed. Its not like Hillary has or is campaigning from a position completely out of government. Hillary voted for the war to begin with so she must have a pretty good grip on the situation. Apart from voting for the war the same goes for other policy areas.
Absolutely. In fact, we have codified what used to be a custom or tradition into a law. The transition from one administration to the next. Each side, incoming and outgoing, has a counterpart. The same goes for each of the cabinet departments and agencies. The FBI and CIA directors are appointed for a 10 year term and would not be involved. That story was fabricated by Bill Sammon, puppet to master Rupert Murdoch. Mainly to work mischief especially on the www where rumors exceed facts by 10 to 1.
See my earlier post for comments re Hillary and the War on Terror vote.
reply posted on 26-9-2007 @ 06:04 PM by tnangela
It really is kinda cool...even if they get info about you that goes into a database....
www.vajoe.com...
Hmm, I matched with Gravel @ 92%...and he's the top runner. I didn't expect that.
Top Candidates
Most Top-Matched Candidates
Gravel - 14.15%
Tommy Thompson - 12.45%
Romney - 10.99%
Giuliani - 10.96%
Kucinich - 10.46%
Biden - 6.40%
Clinton - 4.69%
Cox - 4.48%
Obama - 4.20%
Hunter - 3.65%
Dodd - 3.63%
Fred Thompson - 2.66%
Tancredo - 2.50%
Paul - 2.14%
Huckabee - 2.06%
Richardson - 1.83%
Edwards - 1.33%
Brownback - 1.02%
Mccain - 0.42%
www.vajoe.com...
Hmm, I matched with Gravel @ 92%...and he's the top runner. I didn't expect that.
Top Candidates
Most Top-Matched Candidates
Gravel - 14.15%
Tommy Thompson - 12.45%
Romney - 10.99%
Giuliani - 10.96%
Kucinich - 10.46%
Biden - 6.40%
Clinton - 4.69%
Cox - 4.48%
Obama - 4.20%
Hunter - 3.65%
Dodd - 3.63%
Fred Thompson - 2.66%
Tancredo - 2.50%
Paul - 2.14%
Huckabee - 2.06%
Richardson - 1.83%
Edwards - 1.33%
Brownback - 1.02%
Mccain - 0.42%
reply posted on 26-9-2007 @ 06:48 PM by donwhite
reply to post by tnangela
I clicked on one issue by mistake and I instantly got sent to the Washington Times. I guess this Virginia Joe site is sponsored by the WTimes and FOX. I guess I'll get a million scams now including those "I have $40 million I can't get out of the country but I can put it in your checking account for only a $4,905.05 handling fee. Please send your check to Box 40U Nigeria.”
My “score” with Mike Gravel - he must be sponsoring this site - was 86.29% and I don’t believe Gravel ever voted the way I answered.
Top 5 Most Important Issues * Iraq Surge * Abortion * Free Trade * Embryonic Stem Cell Research * Patriot Act *
I obviously can’t dispute the list furnished on the website. But it was interesting.
I clicked on one issue by mistake and I instantly got sent to the Washington Times. I guess this Virginia Joe site is sponsored by the WTimes and FOX. I guess I'll get a million scams now including those "I have $40 million I can't get out of the country but I can put it in your checking account for only a $4,905.05 handling fee. Please send your check to Box 40U Nigeria.”
My “score” with Mike Gravel - he must be sponsoring this site - was 86.29% and I don’t believe Gravel ever voted the way I answered.
Top 5 Most Important Issues * Iraq Surge * Abortion * Free Trade * Embryonic Stem Cell Research * Patriot Act *
I obviously can’t dispute the list furnished on the website. But it was interesting.
reply posted on 29-9-2007 @ 04:59 PM by donwhite
reply to post by Justin Oldham
Pretty soon you will have to describe Hillary as the Teflon Kid 2. After Ronnie Reagan.
It worked well for him. He blithely but pathetically escaped the Iran Contra Affair. Bush41 was not so fortunate and he had to pardon Casper Weinberg and his 5 associates to avoid enduring prosecution and probable prison time for lying to investigators.
Ah, it is really nice to be president when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Just ask Bush43, who had to semi-pardon Scooter Liddy to keep his hind-end out of jail. Full pardon to follow in January, 2009. A belated Christmas gift! Silence is Golden!
[edit on 9/29/2007 by donwhite]
Pretty soon you will have to describe Hillary as the Teflon Kid 2. After Ronnie Reagan.
It worked well for him. He blithely but pathetically escaped the Iran Contra Affair. Bush41 was not so fortunate and he had to pardon Casper Weinberg and his 5 associates to avoid enduring prosecution and probable prison time for lying to investigators.
Ah, it is really nice to be president when you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Just ask Bush43, who had to semi-pardon Scooter Liddy to keep his hind-end out of jail. Full pardon to follow in January, 2009. A belated Christmas gift! Silence is Golden!
[edit on 9/29/2007 by donwhite]
reply posted on 29-9-2007 @ 09:35 PM by grover
reply to post by Justin Oldham
Yes but did you catch that shameful and poorly attended NAACP hosted Republican debate moderated by Travis Smiley? The only ones who bothered to show up were the ones who don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting the nomination.
You don't get support or win elections by ignoring a whole swath of the electorate and it highlights once more the Republican problem with race.
The thing that struck me though is the ones who did bother attending were graciously recieved but besides that had some interesting and articulate responses to the questions. Better in a lot of ways than the Democratic ones.
[edit on 29-9-2007 by grover]
Yes but did you catch that shameful and poorly attended NAACP hosted Republican debate moderated by Travis Smiley? The only ones who bothered to show up were the ones who don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting the nomination.
You don't get support or win elections by ignoring a whole swath of the electorate and it highlights once more the Republican problem with race.
The thing that struck me though is the ones who did bother attending were graciously recieved but besides that had some interesting and articulate responses to the questions. Better in a lot of ways than the Democratic ones.
[edit on 29-9-2007 by grover]
reply posted on 30-9-2007 @ 07:33 AM by donwhite
reply to post by grover
grover Yes but did you catch that shameful and poorly attended NAACP hosted Republican debate moderated by Travis Smiley?
Although 9 out of 10 writers call him Travis his name is actually T A V I S. Where he got that name I don’t know. Perhaps the people at the hospital misunderstood his mother? Or mis-spelled his name? It’s hard to say.
grover You don't get support or win elections by ignoring a whole swath of the electorate and it highlights once more the Republican problem with race. The thing that struck me though is the ones who did bother attending were graciously received but besides that had some interesting and articulate responses to the questions. Better in a lot of ways than the Democratic ones.
I did not watch it. I’m fed up with debates. I have known since 2000 that Hillary was going to run in ‘08. I was for her then. I’m for her now. I’ll vote for her in ‘08. The poor American public. They think a person can tell them what they will do in the future. I have so little regard for future-tellers that I cannot recall the name of that genre of frauds.
Psychics? There was a famous faith healer from St. Petersburg FL who was caught using a small radio transmitter operated by his wife out of sight; She read to him from just completed “prayer request” cards. He wore what the audience thought was a hearing aid. He acted as if GOD was telling him about this or that afflicted person. A reporter used a scanner to “tune in.” He was dutifully exposed. But that did not stop electronic frauds or the publics fascination with them.
Why do we Americans ask our potential leaders to do the impossible? Oh, Sweet Jesus, for a British length campaign! Not fewer than 30 days nor more than 60. Come quickly, Sweet Jesus!
[edit on 9/30/2007 by donwhite]
grover Yes but did you catch that shameful and poorly attended NAACP hosted Republican debate moderated by Travis Smiley?
Although 9 out of 10 writers call him Travis his name is actually T A V I S. Where he got that name I don’t know. Perhaps the people at the hospital misunderstood his mother? Or mis-spelled his name? It’s hard to say.
grover You don't get support or win elections by ignoring a whole swath of the electorate and it highlights once more the Republican problem with race. The thing that struck me though is the ones who did bother attending were graciously received but besides that had some interesting and articulate responses to the questions. Better in a lot of ways than the Democratic ones.
I did not watch it. I’m fed up with debates. I have known since 2000 that Hillary was going to run in ‘08. I was for her then. I’m for her now. I’ll vote for her in ‘08. The poor American public. They think a person can tell them what they will do in the future. I have so little regard for future-tellers that I cannot recall the name of that genre of frauds.
Psychics? There was a famous faith healer from St. Petersburg FL who was caught using a small radio transmitter operated by his wife out of sight; She read to him from just completed “prayer request” cards. He wore what the audience thought was a hearing aid. He acted as if GOD was telling him about this or that afflicted person. A reporter used a scanner to “tune in.” He was dutifully exposed. But that did not stop electronic frauds or the publics fascination with them.
Why do we Americans ask our potential leaders to do the impossible? Oh, Sweet Jesus, for a British length campaign! Not fewer than 30 days nor more than 60. Come quickly, Sweet Jesus!
[edit on 9/30/2007 by donwhite]
reply posted on 30-9-2007 @ 02:04 PM by grover
reply to post by donwhite
Actually I didn't catch it so much as the TV was on while I was on my computer and I listened to it by default... I really pay little attention to the debates either, especially since they really are not actual debates rather than presentation forums.
What am I going to do in 09? I have no idea. As for what I am going to do in 08... Unless it obvious Hillary is going to win it hands down, I will hold my nose and vote for her (God I hate saying that) but if it is obvious she will win, then I will vote for some third party candidate.
I cannot bring myself to support her. At the same time the stakes are too high to let another Republican take the office.
For me this is what it boils down to... to have so many candidates running on both sides we have a piss poor choice, indeed the poorest choices I have seen in my lifetime.
Guillani make me want to throw up... Hillary has all the grace and charm of a reptile.
John McCain is too gung ho for this war... Barack Obama wants it too bad.
Romney doesn't have a chance in hell... Edwards has too little experience.
Ron Paul, I could live with him... Richardson... he has the experience we need.
Thompson is a joke, he is by all accounts, profoundly lazy.
I forget who else is running and that says it all in a nut shell.
Actually I didn't catch it so much as the TV was on while I was on my computer and I listened to it by default... I really pay little attention to the debates either, especially since they really are not actual debates rather than presentation forums.
What am I going to do in 09? I have no idea. As for what I am going to do in 08... Unless it obvious Hillary is going to win it hands down, I will hold my nose and vote for her (God I hate saying that) but if it is obvious she will win, then I will vote for some third party candidate.
I cannot bring myself to support her. At the same time the stakes are too high to let another Republican take the office.
For me this is what it boils down to... to have so many candidates running on both sides we have a piss poor choice, indeed the poorest choices I have seen in my lifetime.
Guillani make me want to throw up... Hillary has all the grace and charm of a reptile.
John McCain is too gung ho for this war... Barack Obama wants it too bad.
Romney doesn't have a chance in hell... Edwards has too little experience.
Ron Paul, I could live with him... Richardson... he has the experience we need.
Thompson is a joke, he is by all accounts, profoundly lazy.
I forget who else is running and that says it all in a nut shell.
reply posted on 30-9-2007 @ 06:56 PM by donwhite
reply to post by grover
grover Actually I didn't catch it so much as the TV was on while I was on my computer and I listened to it by default. Unless it obvious Hillary is going to win it hands down, I will hold my nose and vote for her (God I hate saying that) but if it is obvious she will win, then I will vote for some third party candidate. I cannot bring myself to support her. At the same time the stakes are too high to let another Republican take the office. For me this is what it boils down to...the poorest choices I have seen in my lifetime.
Mr G, what I’m seeing is the FAILURE of democracy. We have TOO much democracy. When I go to the polls, I’m asked to vote for state reps and state senators, city councilmen in my district and at-large, judges for trial courts and appeals courts, and then to vote on 5 or 6 initiatives. it is self-delusion to think I'm casting an INFORMED ballot. Or any of my fellow citizens, either.
We are watching the same phenomenon in presidential politics. Ah, for the good days of “smoke filled backrooms” where bosses choose our candidates for us. The Dems democratized the conventions first, with 1972's George McGovern. The GOP followed in 1980 with Reagan. Gone are the wise old men who “knew” what the country needed. Andrew Jackson. Abraham Lincoln. Theodore Roosevelt. FDR. Harry Truman. Dwight Eisenhower. All products of smoke filled rooms. And then it was over.
grover Giuliani make me want to throw up... Hillary has all the grace and charm of a reptile. John McCain is too gung ho for this war... Barack Obama wants it too bad. Romney doesn't have a chance in hell... Edwards has too little experience. Ron Paul, I could live with him... Richardson... he has the experience we need. Thompson is a joke, he is by all accounts, profoundly lazy. I forget who else is running and that says it all in a nut shell.
Ron Paul has a rep for being honest in his views and not embarrassed to let you know them. My issue with him is the same will all Libertarians, they have not explained how we can run a $3 t. government without a staff.
Early on I believed Bill Richardson - an unlikely Hispanic - from the West and a small state too, would be an ideal counterbalance to Hillary from NY and so on. But Barack has done TOO well to be ignored. America’s blacks have been true and faithful to the Dems since 1932. With Barack running a strong 2nd and for a long time it is inconceivable the Dems will not offer him the VP slot. Sure, you could argue Barack will not get more black votes than the Dems would have without him, but surely blacks are due a reward? And a lot of whites would vote for him, I believe. Well, not in TN but elsewhere.
Fred has proved to be a big let-down for the much anticipating GOPs. I’m thinking they were pinning too much hope on him. The turn-around kid he has not been. So far, he’s been a re-hash of Reagan. He has 4 or 5 quips to offer. He’s not Reagan and Fred can’t tell a believable story like Reagan and he surely is not as handsome. Mitt is running PRO war type ads here in FL. I guess he thinks everyone here thinks like the Central Command in Tampa? He’d be surprised at the number of pacificists I meet on Elderhostel trips.
So what’s my closing word on politics, American style? E N D U R E!
[edit on 9/30/2007 by donwhite]
grover Actually I didn't catch it so much as the TV was on while I was on my computer and I listened to it by default. Unless it obvious Hillary is going to win it hands down, I will hold my nose and vote for her (God I hate saying that) but if it is obvious she will win, then I will vote for some third party candidate. I cannot bring myself to support her. At the same time the stakes are too high to let another Republican take the office. For me this is what it boils down to...the poorest choices I have seen in my lifetime.
Mr G, what I’m seeing is the FAILURE of democracy. We have TOO much democracy. When I go to the polls, I’m asked to vote for state reps and state senators, city councilmen in my district and at-large, judges for trial courts and appeals courts, and then to vote on 5 or 6 initiatives. it is self-delusion to think I'm casting an INFORMED ballot. Or any of my fellow citizens, either.
We are watching the same phenomenon in presidential politics. Ah, for the good days of “smoke filled backrooms” where bosses choose our candidates for us. The Dems democratized the conventions first, with 1972's George McGovern. The GOP followed in 1980 with Reagan. Gone are the wise old men who “knew” what the country needed. Andrew Jackson. Abraham Lincoln. Theodore Roosevelt. FDR. Harry Truman. Dwight Eisenhower. All products of smoke filled rooms. And then it was over.
grover Giuliani make me want to throw up... Hillary has all the grace and charm of a reptile. John McCain is too gung ho for this war... Barack Obama wants it too bad. Romney doesn't have a chance in hell... Edwards has too little experience. Ron Paul, I could live with him... Richardson... he has the experience we need. Thompson is a joke, he is by all accounts, profoundly lazy. I forget who else is running and that says it all in a nut shell.
Ron Paul has a rep for being honest in his views and not embarrassed to let you know them. My issue with him is the same will all Libertarians, they have not explained how we can run a $3 t. government without a staff.
Early on I believed Bill Richardson - an unlikely Hispanic - from the West and a small state too, would be an ideal counterbalance to Hillary from NY and so on. But Barack has done TOO well to be ignored. America’s blacks have been true and faithful to the Dems since 1932. With Barack running a strong 2nd and for a long time it is inconceivable the Dems will not offer him the VP slot. Sure, you could argue Barack will not get more black votes than the Dems would have without him, but surely blacks are due a reward? And a lot of whites would vote for him, I believe. Well, not in TN but elsewhere.
Fred has proved to be a big let-down for the much anticipating GOPs. I’m thinking they were pinning too much hope on him. The turn-around kid he has not been. So far, he’s been a re-hash of Reagan. He has 4 or 5 quips to offer. He’s not Reagan and Fred can’t tell a believable story like Reagan and he surely is not as handsome. Mitt is running PRO war type ads here in FL. I guess he thinks everyone here thinks like the Central Command in Tampa? He’d be surprised at the number of pacificists I meet on Elderhostel trips.
So what’s my closing word on politics, American style? E N D U R E!
[edit on 9/30/2007 by donwhite]
reply posted on 1-10-2007 @ 07:36 AM by donwhite
reply to post by grover
~Associate Justice William O. Douglas~ 1898-1980. Wikipedia says he served as Associate Justice for 36 years seven months making him the longest serving justice. Appointed by FDR in 1939 after serving on the SEC from 1934 and as its chairman from 1937. He resigned in 1975 after a suffering a stroke.
ANOTHER QUOTE: “These days I see America identified more and more with material things, less and less with spiritual standards. These days I see America acting abroad as an arrogant, selfish, greedy nation interested only in guns and dollars, not in people and their hopes and aspirations. We need a faith that dedicates us to something bigger and more important than ourselves or our possessions. Only if we have that faith will we be able to guide the destiny of nations in this the most critical period of world history. -- From his book This I Believe published in 1952
A Memorable Case. Do Trees Have A Right To Sue? In the landmark environmental law case, Sierra Club v. Morton, 405 U.S. 727 (1972), Justice Douglas famously and most colorfully argued that "inanimate objects" should have standing to sue in court:
"Inanimate objects are sometimes parties in litigation. A ship has a legal personality, a fiction found useful for maritime purposes. The corporation sole - a creature of ecclesiastical law - is an acceptable adversary and large fortunes ride on its cases . . . .
"So it should be as respects valleys, alpine meadows, rivers, lakes, estuaries, beaches, ridges, groves of trees, swampland, or even air that feels the destructive pressures of modern technology and modern life. The river, for example, is the living symbol of all the life it sustains or nourishes - fish, aquatic insects, water ouzels,* otter, fisher, deer, elk, bear, and all other animals, including man, who are dependent on it or who enjoy it for its sight, its sound, or its life. The river as plaintiff speaks for the ecological unit of life that is part of it."
*The Water Ouzel or American Dipper, is an aquatic songbird, it is seen on river rafting trips in Oregon & Idaho. From Wikipedia.
[edit on 10/1/2007 by donwhite]
~Associate Justice William O. Douglas~ 1898-1980. Wikipedia says he served as Associate Justice for 36 years seven months making him the longest serving justice. Appointed by FDR in 1939 after serving on the SEC from 1934 and as its chairman from 1937. He resigned in 1975 after a suffering a stroke.
ANOTHER QUOTE: “These days I see America identified more and more with material things, less and less with spiritual standards. These days I see America acting abroad as an arrogant, selfish, greedy nation interested only in guns and dollars, not in people and their hopes and aspirations. We need a faith that dedicates us to something bigger and more important than ourselves or our possessions. Only if we have that faith will we be able to guide the destiny of nations in this the most critical period of world history. -- From his book This I Believe published in 1952
A Memorable Case. Do Trees Have A Right To Sue? In the landmark environmental law case, Sierra Club v. Morton, 405 U.S. 727 (1972), Justice Douglas famously and most colorfully argued that "inanimate objects" should have standing to sue in court:
"Inanimate objects are sometimes parties in litigation. A ship has a legal personality, a fiction found useful for maritime purposes. The corporation sole - a creature of ecclesiastical law - is an acceptable adversary and large fortunes ride on its cases . . . .
"So it should be as respects valleys, alpine meadows, rivers, lakes, estuaries, beaches, ridges, groves of trees, swampland, or even air that feels the destructive pressures of modern technology and modern life. The river, for example, is the living symbol of all the life it sustains or nourishes - fish, aquatic insects, water ouzels,* otter, fisher, deer, elk, bear, and all other animals, including man, who are dependent on it or who enjoy it for its sight, its sound, or its life. The river as plaintiff speaks for the ecological unit of life that is part of it."
*The Water Ouzel or American Dipper, is an aquatic songbird, it is seen on river rafting trips in Oregon & Idaho. From Wikipedia.
[edit on 10/1/2007 by donwhite]
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