You know I really don't like any of the candidates... or trust any of them. Its quite unfortunate... Ron Paul has said some interesting things, but I just worry the nicest most down to earth people will turn around and stab you in the back. I don't understand why we need a president?

1) Image. Smoke and mirrors. Look busy even if you’re not. Be glib. Most people are courteous enough not to talk when you are. Never stop talking your line. Even if you have nothing to say. Be resolute, answer your own question if you don’t like the one posed to you. Almost no one is listening, anyway. The more things change the more they stay the same. Is life just one long cliche? Just an anecdote to the person who talks the loudest?

2) Thompson vs. Giuliani. Fred is a NON starter. First he said July 4, now he says Labor Day. CNN said today he had hoped to raise $5 million - down from the earlier boast of $10 million on one conference call - but that he had raised only $2 million. That puts Fred arm in arm with John McCain. Between the two of them, they can buy their staff one more round of Starbucks! Then its back to Law and Order and the Senate.

3) Small government? Justin rightly recounts his own experience as a Federal employee. He swings like a heavyweight but I’m darting about like a light-heavy. Reminds me of the 2nd Joe Lewis v. Billy Conn fight. Back then Conn was declared the White Hope to take back the title from ugh, a black man. Joe Lewis TKO’d Conn in the 7th. That is, Conn did not answer the bell.

4) What brand of GOP-ism? Robert Alphonso Taft, of Cincinnati, Ohio. On the cover of Time Magazine, he was proclaimed Mr Republican! In 1948, he offered no fight to re-running Tom Dewey against Harry Truman. The understanding was he, Taft, would get the nod in 1952. But then along came war hero General of the Army Dwight David Eisenhower. At last he decided he would like to top off a grand career with a turn at the presidency. Hey, Washington did it. Andrew Jackson. William Henry Harrison. Zachary Taylor. US Grant. Maybe others. Why not? You have all the staff you need. It would be like Overlord with unlimited time out for golf? Hmm?

But no Kay Summersby to chauffeur you around. She by the way holds a WORLD’S Record! She started World War Two as English woman and a private in the British Army. When the war ended she was an American citizen and a Captain in the US Army. Wow! I wonder what super special skills she possessed? Anyway, the powers that be shunted Taft aside and put Ike on the ballot. Under Ike we got Iran from which we have not recovered and we got Cuba which wont go away and we got Vietnam. 59,000 KIA and run out of town. Maybe Normandy was better suited to Ike's skills?

5) Danger from Unbridled Seekers of Power. Power is inherently dangerous to those over whom it is exercised. Oh Robespierre, where are you when we need you? The only thing that saves us low-life types is the vision of the person exercising it. I have FAITH that Hillary and Barack have a good vision.

[edit on 7/31/2007 by donwhite]

That's me, Pugnacious J. Pugelist from the wrong side of da tracks. Misunderstood mangler of the idealistic and unguarded hamburgers.

He being the populist candidate of the two, I'd be inclined to believe that Obama was worth some degree of faith. I do, however, think that we face a perfect storm of condition and circumstance that were bound to arise eventually. With the Federalists about to achieve their long sought goals, the few shreds of old Whig chonservative still in me cringe in fear. I have no doubt that what gets done to us in our name will be said to be...for our own good.

Ease people I made no reference to the Reagan White House years in this instance but I'm not going to press my point on this thread.

IMO a candidate not only has to define themselves in advance but they also have to be good managers of people because should they get elected they must have some measure of control of the differnt personality's and influences in there admin. A leader without any backbone or without the ability to manage people is of little value anywhere little alone the White House.

posted by xpert11
IMO a candidate not only has to define themselves in advance but they also have to be good managers of people because should they get elected they must have some measure of control of the different personality's and influences in there admin. A leader without any backbone or without the ability to manage people is of little value anywhere little alone the White House.

Right you are Mr X11. To some extent this is Hillary’s problem. Unlike Bill, she is not an out-going person by nature. She was a behind the scenes operator. This could be partly due to the anti-female bias in her chosen profession, the law. She has always been ambitious, nay, say aggressive. She was the first student to speak at the Commencement ceremony at her all girls college. Such honors do not fall out of the sky; they must be pried out of the sky!

From the beginning, she was an active member of the Clinton team from their first success as Arkansas Attorney General to several terms as governor of Arkansas. She like any woman candidate, must appear demur to some of her audience yet also appear competent and capable of standing alone to others. It’s a hard row to hoe, as we older types recall our parents saying.

If there is any profession more stilted towards the past than the legal one, it is medicine! American physicians have begrudgingly tolerated females in the practice, but it was not all the long ago, the 1970s, when they finally condescended to let woman in. In 1993, when Hillary took on the then broken health care delivery system in America - it’s worse today - she got along OK until it came time to establish a pricing mechanism for services rendered. Then it fell apart. Just as LBJ had to agree to a blank check on medical fees to get Medicare passed in 1965, so the Medical Profession still feels powerful enough to block any outside involvement in setting fees. She was smart enough to call it quits. She was not the captain of the ship and had no duty to go down with it.

Note to Mr X11. If you want to read about a man born in 1806 in rural Kentucky, who never attended formal school a day in his life, yet he managed to run our government with a cabinet filled with his opponents and who salvaged our country, all to his eternal glory, I recommend a 700 page book I just finished, “Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln” by Doris Kearns Goodwin, a 2005 Best Seller.

Note to J/O: The 1860 Republican Party was made up of worn out Whigs, disgruntled anti-slavery Democrats and apolitical abolitionists. Lincoln had to hold it together through the Civil War, perhaps an even greater challenge than that which faced George Washington?

[edit on 8/1/2007 by donwhite]

How soon we forget.....The Clintons, Clinton's unwillingness to use force abroad: how it emboldened America's enemies,Clinton's kernel of lawlessness: how he admitted that any illegality -- even accepting money from the Chinese -- was justified by his belief in the self-evident goodness of his own re-election,The amazing story of Susan McDougal's refusal to testify about Whitewater ..What Clinton's efforts to dodge the Vietnam draft , Clinton's welfare reform bill: a substantive disaster, How the Slick One sold out U.S. national security to campaign contributors , The feminization of the military: why this could be Clinton's longest-lasting and most damaging legacy. Why September 11 is the unmistakable result of Clinton's misplaced priorities and lack of true vision as a leader,Clinton's scandals: why they were very real --so real that in fact he did deserve impeachment,the Lewinsky scandal Why Janet Reno failedn and on and Hillary is the angry one, all the time...be afraid be very afraid. Too much to name here..remember the soldier's body being draged down the street, now where was that? We have had a few bad presidents, yes...and everyone is about to put him back in there with Hillary at the helm...this is going to be the very dark years for America coming in your voting booth very soon. Some of the early casualties in the Engine Room include some fifty associates and bodyguards connected to Bill Clinton, who are now dead, mostly from highly suspicious, brutal "suicides"? James McDougal, Mary Mahoney, Vince Foster, Ron Brown, C. Victor Raiser II, Montgomery Raiser, Paul Tulley, Ed Willey, Jerry Parks, James Bunch, James Wilson, Kathy Ferguson, Bill Shelton, Gandy Baugh, Florence Martin, Suzanne Coleman, Paula Grober, Danny Casolaro, Paul Wilcher, Jon Parnell Walker, Barbara Wise, Charles Meissner, Dr. Stanley Heard, Barry Seal, Johnny Lawhorn Jr., Stanley Huggins, Hershell Friday, Kevin Ives, Don Henry, Keith Coney, Keith McMaskle, Gregory Collins, Jeff Rhodes, James Milan, Jordan Kettleson, Richard Winters, Major William S. Barkley Jr., Captain Scott J. Reynolds, Sgt. Brian Hanley, Sgt. Tim Sabel, Major General William Robertson, Col. William Densberger, Col. Robert Kelly, Spec. Gary Rhodes, Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan.....

You'll get no argument from me that Lincoln had it worse that Washington. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise.

When it comesto peole management, all Presidents have one thing going for them. They ahve so many layers of sub-managers beneath them that they can to some extent overcome any managerial shortcomings they might have.

My general sene of the thing is that most of the candidates on both sides are atleast moderately effective people persons. All Presidents are handicapped by the fact that they have to use their political appointments to pay debts, which means they don't always get the cream of the crop to work with.

Xpert and I have talked about this matter of personal definition before, and I think its still very important. I would dare to point out that all of us can see the merit in this, which further makes the point that there's a lot that goes on inside American politics that isn't limited to just one party. That's why we can all come together here and talk from so many different perspectives.

posted by Justin Oldham
My general sense of the thing is that most of the candidates on both sides are at least moderately effective people persons. All Presidents are handicapped by the fact that they have to use their political appointments to pay debts, which means they don't always get the cream of the crop to work with. Xpert and I have talked about this matter of personal definition before, and I think its still very important. I would dare to point out that all of us can see the merit in this, which further makes the point that there's a lot that goes on inside American politics that isn't limited to just one party. That's why we can all come together here and talk from so many different perspectives.

Yes, J/O, comes quickly to mind that FDR did not like Old Joe Kennedy as a person or his politics. Yet he gave him the most sought after posting, the Court of St. James. There is a story in there somewhere. FDR got some revenge by letting Kennedy stay on in London despite his ill considered remarks about Herr Hitler, Il Duce and the trains.

The powers behind the throne knew FDR could not live long past the 1944 election. They believed Henry Wallace was too weak on capitalism and too strong on peace for their liking, so the popular Wallace was shelved for the unknown Truman. Killed two birds with one stone. Wallace is out of the way and Truman is obligated.

Some of these things are true and some are not. It is enough to keep the conspiratorial question alive but not enough to settle it. It makes life very interesting.

[edit on 8/1/2007 by donwhite]

I myself wouldn't call any of the situations you mentioned particulary conspiratorial. Political, yes. Conspiracy, no. the people you mentioned who got cut out were not team players, and they didn't know when to shut up. In his own case, Joe Kenedy went down due to self-inflicted wounds.

I raise this point becuase it sems likely that all of the GOP contenders re guilty of that to one extent or another. That is to say that each has been his own worst enemy. Although he has made few mistake to date, Obama seems bound and determined to find his own weakness so that he might exploit it. Yikes.

God help us...if any of these are elected.

Originally posted by samnx2
God help us...if any of these are elected.

Could you lay out a thing or two about each of those potential candidates that you find worrisoime?




[edit on 8/1/2007 by donwhite]

My biggest complaint about ALL of the candidates running, both Republican and Democrat is that with the exception of a few like Bill Richardson, their experience is minimal. Of the Top three Democrats Hillary has the most experience with 7 years in the Senate but that is it; as for the top 3 Republicans running only McCain has any long term experience but his candidacy is falling apart.

Even Clinton had more experience with 10 years as Governor than most of the ones running now. Guillaini as mayor of our biggest city has no more experience internationally than any of the others; Romney is making John Kerry look like Mr. Steadfast in his flippy flopping, no one wants to see Newt the Gingrich anywhere near the White House; his impeachment ploy will keep him down and Gilmore of Va.... well he damn near wrecked this state. I don't think there is a Virginian, Republican or Democrat who would vote for him, even for dog catcher or road kill remover.

After 8 years of cowboy diplomacy from the gang that couldn't think straight, we need more than anything else rock solid experience and a crediblity that none of these dwarves have.

Mr Grover, your pithy evaluations of the current genre of wanna-be’s is like a hammer driving home a nail in soft wood! Bad news. Things will get worse, not better. As each party becomes more sophisticated - like Tom DeLay in Texas - the vote of the few who take the trouble will mean less and less. More bad news. The Roberts Supreme Court is granting its approving imprimatur to every twist and turn to defeat the ordinary man.

We - the common people - will never get it back until we have genuine Campaign Finance Reform. NO private money allowed. The taxpayers must fund public elections and electioneering 100%. Anything less is just one more band aid.

To keep out 1000s of kooks, we may require anyone who wants to run to personally solicit and obtain 1,000 signatures on a petition - 200 in each of 5 states - and $10 by check. We would need a series of run-off primaries too. Let the top 5 or 6 - or anyone polling more than 10% of the vote - stand for a second run-off then the final primary, with but 2 candidates. One open voting election. Candidates would designate their party but all would run in an open voting primary. One primary can fit all.

[edit on 8/2/2007 by donwhite]

I really wouldn't call my comments pithy though I do like a neat turn of the phrase.... there is a truth behind each one.

As for campiagn finance reform, I couldn't agree more.

As for Mr. Grover, I served as a deck hand not an officer i.e. I worked for a living so its no mr. just grover.

I was watching the news last night, and the latest stack of polls which were examined suggests that Hillary has increased her lead against all comers. it was briefly mentioned thed a Giuliani-Thompson ticket did poll well against Hillary, but with no hope of victory.

Speaking of no hope, I don't see any chance for campaign finance reform in the near future. The most immediate reforms I would like to see would have to do with reporting where the dollars come from, and where they go. Right now, Obama is getting more money from the small contributor than any other candidate is.

Our ability as citizens to send five dollars to the candidate of our choice should matter. If the public at large preferred Ron Paul, we can drown him in money. If, as in the case of John McCain, we don't prefer...we can send our money to somebody else. Voting with your dollars may not turn the tide but it does send a clear signal well before election day.

In other matters, Grover has mentioned his sea-fairing to me in the past. I have no doubt that he was a competent sailor. In my youth, I had the privilidge of spending time on a sailboat in the Chesapeake area, ranging as far north as Boston and as far south as Newport News (Virginia). The experience was profound, and it has found its way in to my writing.

posted by deckhand grover
I really wouldn't call my comments pithy . .

Wordperfect v. 10 dictionary says: "pithy Def 2. Terse and vigorously expressive . . "

But I agreed with your analysis. Regardless.


[edit on 8/2/2007 by donwhite]

I stand corrected.

JO.... I was in the Coast Guard from 1974 thru 1977. For most of that time I was stationed on the U.S.C.G.C. Duane (old 33) a 327ft cutter out of Portland Maine. At the time she was the oldest active commissioned ship in the U.S. fleet, Coast Guard or Navy. She was commissioned in 1936 and decommissioned in 1985 and then sunk off key west in 1987 to make an artificial reef. I have a photo of her on the bottom that I use as wallpaper now and then.

She was in sad shape when I was on her more composed of rust and paint than metal.

While I never served overseas with her, she was in WW2, Korea( I believe) and Vietnam. While I was on our missions included iceberg patrol off the coast of Labrador (started after the Titanic went down) Fisheries patrol, Weather patrols (going out to ride a hurricane in that rust bucket was no picnic) drug patrols (our favorite ) an good will publicity appearances. I took part with her during the first tall boats flotilla to NYC harbor for 4th of July 1976.

Later I was sent to small boat station at Grays Harbor Washington just south of the Olympics from where I was discharged honorably.



[edit on 2-8-2007 by grover]

posted by grover
JO: While I never served overseas with her, she was in WW2, Korea (I believe) and Vietnam. While I was on our missions included iceberg patrol off the coast of Labrador (started after the Titanic went down) Fisheries patrol, Weather patrols (going out to ride a hurricane in that rust bucket was no picnic) drug patrols (our favorite) and good will publicity appearances. I took part with her during the first tall boats flotilla to NYC harbor for 4th of July 1976. Later I was sent to small boat station at Grays Harbor Washington just south of the Olympics from where I was discharged honorably.

From the olden days of strenwheel river boats to powerful tugs lugging a dozen barges, the City of Louisville was host to a USCG Station with an address of Foot of Fourth Street. It was finally withdrawn in the mid 1960s. I was of the opinion Louisville had the last inland CG station. It looked as if it had a crew of about 10 men and in the last years, a CPO was the MIC, man-in-charge. They would inspect your boat and if it passed, you’d get a ‘CG Approved’ sticker for your windshield. If it failed, you’d learn what deficiencies you needed to fix.

Q. Based on your service at sea do you have any opinions you’d care to share Grover, about the prospects of success in the US drug interdiction programs of the US Gvt?


[edit on 8/2/2007 by donwhite]

Barackomuslim, Hillariously, John gaywards..
who cares who wins the Duhmocratic nomination..

FRED THOMPSON will be our next president..
(and smile when you say that)

Originally posted by grover
My biggest complaint about ALL of the candidates running, both Republican and Democrat is that with the exception of a few like Bill Richardson, their experience is minimal. Of the Top three Democrats Hillary has the most experience with 7 years in the Senate but that is it; as for the top 3 Republicans running only McCain has any long term experience but his candidacy is falling apart.......

Shame, I like McCain, but one feature of the uk system (for all our heavy heavy faults....) is that you have to have four years record minimum, more like ten to become a party leader, then four more. I hate the fact you have to use Oprah to check someone out when we can use the Freedom of Information Act.

Going into bad mode...... like your country, we got a National Health Service after WWII, our land fit for heroes..... I consider you heroes too. Take care (of each other). Bad mode end.