Clinton? Obama? or Edwards? Who Will It Be?, page 10

reply to post by grover

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Grover What’s interesting is that the 2nd and 3rd tier Republican candidates seem to have the ideas where the front runners are totally devoid of them.

Risk. I think it’s about risk. When you are in front, or leading in the polls, you tend to avoid doing something different than what got you into the lead. That works, as the polls prove. Striking out on a new issue may not work. Why take the risk?

Grover Both parties are still hashing out ideas left over from the New Deal to the Great Society and scarce any more recent than that. I am sick and tired or the same old ideas just repackaged with a new name.

For me it is also unfortunate. That is because it tells me the same issues the New Deal and Great Society tried to address are still out there. We know the disparity between the richest 10% of the population and the poorest 25% has been growing faster than anytime since the 1920s.

It does not bode well when fewer than 1% of any population owns 80% of the total assets. We are compounding this rip in society by putting more people into prison and keeping them longer. When we do let them out they cannot get a good job. How do we expect them to live and more, how can they became contributors?

Grover The vast majority of the voters do not want anymore of this war and the Democrats need to stop pussy footing around the issue as well. That is one of the things that so infuriates me about Hillary.

Part of winding down any failed or failing adventure like a war is to lay blame. If the Dems refused to appropriate any more money for the war in Iraq, you can be sure it would launch a near-war in America. A great part of Americans feel as strongly about patriotism as they do about religion, maybe even stronger.

Yes, the Dems won in ‘06 but not by overwhelming margins. In 1934, the Dems captured 322 seats to the GOP’s 103. 7 were Progressives and 3 were Farmer-Labor. That gives you a MANDATE. Slightly more recent, the 1964 Congress was divided 295 Dems to 140 GOP. (291 is the veto over-ride vote. 2006 was 233 Dems to 202 GOP. If the Dems hold 100% of their members, they need 58 GOP to override. That is not likely.

If the Dems just refused to vote any more money for the DoD, except 165,000 one way tickets good on any airline, to bring the boys home, then the president with all his “allies” in Iraq and Israel are left wide open to commit any kind of mischief to make HIM look good and them to look BAD. Life is not that simple. It is an extreme chess game, not a game of checkers.

[edit on 10/1/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by grover

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Grover As for too much democracy, I have to disagree. We have too much campaigning and not enough educating the citizens on the issues. The parties have to get out of the business of telling us what the issues are and start listening to the people to actually determine them.

At the Federal level, every citizen has 4 votes. 1 for a Congressman, 2 for senators and 1 for the president. And you don’t vote more often than once every 2 years. Plenty of time to hash and re-hash what you want and what the candidates promise to do. That’s democracy in action. That’s casting an informed vote.

At the state level, to the governor we often add such state-wide posts as Secretory of State, Attorney General, State Treasurer, State Auditor, and in most of the south, the head of the Agriculture department. In my old state of Ky, they added the Superintendent of Public Instruction and Clerk of the Supreme Court.

At first blush all this may look democratic. But in fact, it works in just the opposite way. It is too hard to fix responsibility. That is the flip side of the coin with accountability on the other side. We have all too little of either in state and local government. Too many officials are elected in the mistaken belief that will somehow give us good government. Not necessarily so.

On too much campaigning I could not agree more. Under the parliamentary system, as in Canada for example, Federal elections are set for every 5 years. The leading party may, however, call an election earlier and if the leading party shall lose a vote of confidence, then an election is automatically called. Such elections cannot be sooner than 30 days but not longer away than 60 days. With modern communications and much more reliable transportation, anyone can crisis-cross Canada several times in the two months generally allowed for the election. The same would be true here.

When the voter turnout is around 50% as it is here, then the politicians don’t know who to listen to. If voters will not take the time to go to the polls and vote, then why should the politician worry about them? OK, you say, so why don’t the voters turn out? That’s a question to which everyone has his or her own favorite answer. My favorite is that the public cannot see any REAL difference between the 2 major parties. It’s twiddle-dee twiddle-dum. The more it changes, the more it stays the same. On that significant issue I cannot offer an answer.

[edit on 10/1/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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As I stop in for a brief look, I see that Hillary's dominant status remains unchanged. The Republican field remains fractured and divided. Rudy might be in good with the Mob, but he still doesn't have the juice to beat Mrs. Clinton.

First, after you wrote this, Hillary made her worst slip when she gave a truthful answer to the Republican governor of NY who had proposed giving illegals drivers licenses so they could buy car insurance. From the hullabaloo on the platform from her shark-like opponents, she realized that was a NO NO answer for America! If you LOVE God and America then you HATE illegals getting drivers licenses. Amnesty is a no-no word, like "liberal" or "socialist" in America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave! Endless propaganda has done its foul deed!

As I write this, we're just days away from the Iowa caucuses and the other State primaries. All of my predictions remain in tact and on track. the GOP is actually more fragmented now than it was at the time of my last post. The media is trying to provoke fights between Hillary and Barack, but that contest still does not appear to be in doubt. Financial pundits are soft-shoe-ing their way towards the recession that we already know is in our future. I think its imperative for those of us who can to actually go out and vote. You might not get the result you want, but you'll be more invested in what's going on, and what's coming.

The unspoken issue in the Dem ranks is: Would America elect a black? In 2008? Or ever? Blacks are barely 13% of the total population although being centered in the South and large cities gives them more potential influence than Hispanics. Those people are now 14% of the US total population but do not have the blacks unsought but uniting heritage of 90 years of Jim Crow. Racism has not ended today. I cite the 2006 Ford v. Corker senate race in Tennessee. Over and over the Republicans have shown they have no hesitation to use the despicable race card. Always in a negative malicious way.

OTOH, Barack has earned the VP slot on Hillary’s team. As SC’s black voters have begun to move away from her to him, it is obvious to me he must be on any winning Dem ticket.

I earlier alluded to the driver’s license episode. The tragedy of American politics is NO candidate on either side dares tell the truth about any complex issue. No one can fix immigration overnight. Maybe not at all. No one can STOP Bush43's Iraq folly in its tracks even if the public elects MORE Dems to Congress. Or Bush43's PROTO-Nazi War on Terror. Or restore the Supreme Court after Reagan and 2 Bushes. NO one can FIX America’s health care system until it get much, much worse. Too much money. Too much money. Need I repeat this? Ask Ron Paul where he gets his mainline donors if not from the Texas Medical Association?

We need to get it in our heads that NO one controls Congress. No one can. They are 535 individual members elected by the people from 50 states and 5 territories. This goes to my earlier post that America has TOO MUCH DEMOCRACY. America is so democratic it is essentially ungovernable. In my city now of Jacksonville, the city budget is $870 million. 17 member city council and a Mayor. The School Board (7 board members) budget is $1.1 billion. The State (168 member legislature and governor) spends about $500 million in the country and the Federal Government (Mayport Naval Base, and Naval Air Station) are worth about $300 million a year. $2.8 billion a year. Yet this place is ungovernable! Already 110 murders in Duval (Jacksonville) County this year! December 24 saw 3 murders. Lead paint in our toys. Bacteria in our prepared salad mixes. Injections that are contaminated. The FDA is essentially out of business. The CPSC - Consumer Product Safety Commission - is helpless. Federally regulated banks have gone off regulations on home loans only to being on he sub-prime mortgage meltdown that threatens the whole economy! Surely you are able to recall we had a housing boom from 1945 to 1975 and NO mortgage meltdown. How was that? With Dems in control it seems to go better.

I live in a nice older lower middle class neighborhood. Old but nice. Yet 2 times this year I have hard multiple shots fired followed by speeding cars and squealing tires. Oh sure, if I lived in a gated community I would have not of that aggravation not to speak of the risk - 2 people killed inside their apartments by stray bullets this year. Shucks, us NRA types just love our guns. Hey, it’s people who kill, not guns. (How many drive-by baseball bats have been hurled at you?) We are crazy. We are digging our own graves so deep it will be a long time getting out when and if we ever decide to.

Atlanta has 9 months of water. Orlando has 4 years of water. We still treat our water like we treat our air - as if it will never run out or get so bad it begins to kill us. Hmm?

[edit on 12/27/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by Legalizer

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She actually wants to create a law that if someones mom comes into a video game store and buys a rated "M" game for her child, and that child plays it, and then the mother objects to the game, the $5.50 an hour clerk can go to prison.

Methinks you worry too much Mr L/L. That would not be a Federal law with the FBI enforcing. That is a local problem for local authorities. The president cannot make any laws, only YOUR Congressperson can do that. Sleep easy, relax, be part of the making of history - America's FIRST woman president!

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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I'm hopeful that you'll see more of me on ATS in 2008.

Actually J/O, I hope LESS! I hope that you will be too busy on book tours and radio interviews to post much here.

In the mean time...Who in U.S. politics benefits the most from the killing of Benhazir Bhutto? It's been speculated for a long time on ATS that the Republicans might experience some kind of magical turn around if there were some major terror event to happen somewhere in the world. Was the Bhutto assassination such an event? I don't think so.

I agree. I’d expect a terrorist attack in America would have the opposite effect mostly since Bush43 - the most strident of WoT boosters - won’t be on the ballot. We’d be back to ‘04 when Kerry was forced to say “he’d do it better.” Now that 4 more years of “doing it better” have passed and we still are bogged down in the Iraq quagmire, I can’t see the public suddenly wanting MORE of the same. It is time for a change, IMO.

I think Ms. Bhutto put her finger on what happened, in an earlier interview on PBS. She said her death would NOT be an official act by the Musharraf regime but rather an act of lower level personnel or former members of his regime who share his disdain for her; a rogue operation. I believe she was killed because she was TOO close to America.

We should expect to see McCain get a bump, but it won't last beyond Iowa's caucus. If anyone benefits the most, it would be Hillary. Let me explain. We should expect Dem strategists to spin the Bhutto killing as one more failed Bush43 policy. Sympathy for Bhutto will translate in to some small degree of support for Hillary.

Well, being a POW 6 years does not make you smart on world political issues. But Americans like a military background, even if it includes an AWOL pilot who was grounded for not taking his physical. Look, Pakistan has always been a dictatorship since 1947 when Britain gave back its Indian Empire. But, a BENIGN dictatorship. The REAL problem in Pakistan is that 85%-90% of the people do not like American foreign policy. They like Americans, one on one, but not our Government which continues to interfere in their domestic affairs and CIA money keeps our “people” in charge there.

Bush43 probably believes his “freedoms” and “democracy” trite but no one in Pakistan does. The issue we face here is how to keep our man on top in Pakistan. It ain’t going to be easy.

Did you notice Ms. Bhutto never used the word “terrorist” or “terrorism” but instead describes them as “fanatics” and “extremists?” Very few to none of the foreign leaders use Bush43's lingo on this topic. As soon as he’s gone, we can cancel the WoT and get down to doing something smart to improve the world, thereby making us safer.

But, whatever happens, Americans a STUCK until January 20, 2009, before we can take any effective action. We are off the world stage at a critical moment in history for 13 months! Founding Fathers, you have mucked us again. Let's hope Providence will smile once more and give us time.

[edit on 12/29/2007 by donwhite]

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Don Posted: But, whatever happens, Americans are STUCK until January 20, 2009, before we can take any effective action. We are off the world stage at a crucial moment in history for 13 months! Founding Fathers, you have mucked us again.

I don't think the Founders mucked us again. They handed us the best tool of government they could. We're the one's who have used it as a blunt instrument. I remain hopeful that we might yet see that wave of reform that I want so much. Unfortunately, things will have to get much worse before they can become even a little better.

Here are a few changes I’d make if we were calling a Constitutional Convention. 1) Exclude polemical and commercial speech from the First Amendment’s protection. 2) Abolish the Senate. Reconstitute a body of senior citizens who would offer unfettered advice on issues of public interest and which would have unlimited power to investigate within the government. No SECRET Executive Orders to block them. They would then issue their non-partisan report to the public. The Transparency Group. 3) Add a prohibition against capital punishment to the 8th Amendment. 4) The electoral time frame would be dramatically shortened. All candidates or possible candidates would sign up in January of the election year. Every FCC license-holder would be required to give an electoral commission 12 hours per week for each party, chosen by lottery each week, to be used giving equal time to the party’s candidates, for 2 months. Twice all of each party’s candidates would appear together to answer RESPONSIBLE questions. No thanks, Mr Blitzer.

On April Fools Day, we’d have our first primary. All double digit people would pass to the second primary. We’d repeat this scenario in the months of April and May, holding the second primary on May 31. Then the top candidate in each party would stand for the general election. NO public campaigning would be allowed until Labor Day when the fall campaign starts with the general election held on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November as it is now. Each wining candidate would have $2 per voter in his party at the last election and NO more money. NO 527s etc.

ALL campaigning would end on the Sunday before Tuesday’s voting takes place. A quiet time for the voters to reflect. The newly elected president would take office on December 15, following the newly elected Congress taking its seats on November 30.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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I do like your new photo - avatar - and I say, keep it up!

More later.

reply to post by xpert11

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A terrorist attack on US soil would be a disaster for the Republican party because the notion that Bush has kept America safe post 9-11 would finally thrown out the window for good . Even if the US political system was fundamentally changed the same elected officials would corrupt the new system of governance so I don't how the US would be any better off.

Talk of “border security” is deceitful at worst, disingenuous at best. We rant about 12 million undocumented workers inside the country and wring our hands over what to do about it. Five Swift & Co plants were raided and out of 5,000 workers, 1,700 were undocumented. 70 workers were arrested for using stolen Social Security cards. (The illegals had bought the cards, and were not the ones who had stolen the cards). NOT ONE Swift & Co managerial employee was detained. No one on the Board of Directors was called to testify. Swift’s CEO, COO, CFO, CLO and PIO were never interviewed. I assume you can see just what it was that ICE was trying to accomplish? I can’t. How hard would it have been for the SSA to issue new SS account cards to the 70 victims and block the old cards? I remind that bribery is a rich man’s crime, so also is hiring illegals a rich man’s game.

I said all that to say this. It must surely have occurred to any thoughtful person that if Osama bin Ladin had wanted to make another attack on the US of A he could have. Several times. Consider this: as much as Israel tries to have iron-clad security yet, now and then, a suicide bomber gets in. And remember, despite our own high tech and high cost of “drug interdiction” we have more cocaine and more heroin on the streets than ever, based on the low cost of either. $5 a “hit” for crack cocaine. And etc.

And never overlook the 25,000 to 30,000 cargo containers “off loaded” into the US daily. We can inspect only 500 to 1,000 a day. Not nearly enough US Customs staff. (That’s due to the Reagan doctrine of small government is better). Instead we "depend" on the shipper's company and country to "keep us safe." So all this braggadocio over Homeland Security is crapola. GOP style. Come quick sweet Jesus!

[edit on 12/31/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by Justin Oldham

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I do like your new photo - avatar - and I say, keep it up!

I'm actually 24 pounds lighter in my new picture. It's one of many new images that have been put on my new and improved web site. I hope to lose 30 pounds in 2008.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Hello Justin,
I sent you a u2u but dont know if it went through, anyway I am keenly interested in knowing your take on the post I started on PTS:

www.abovepolitics.com...

Please think about it and add your valuable 2c to this possible bombshell,gwhint

Originally posted by gwhint
reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Hello Justin,
I sent you a u2u but dont know if it went through, anyway I am keenly interested in knowing your take on the post I started on PTS:

www.abovepolitics.com...

Please think about it and add your valuable 2c to this possible bombshell,gwhint

I have replied to your message. Hope it helps.

reply to post by gwhint

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I am keenly interested in knowing your take on the post I started on PTS: www.abovepolitics.com...Please think about it and add your valuable 2c to this possible bombshell, gwhint

Mr Gwhint, I tried to use the link provided above, but my computer must have some short-fall as I could not reach the thread. Perhaps you could spell out the title of the thread for me?

Don W

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