The Douglas Bader Mystery

Ken, your story is intriguing and I am actually inclined to believe you. BUT, you have to understand that ATS isn't every other website out there. We do things a little different here.

For example:

Courtesy is Mandatory

General ATS Discussion Etiquette.

Civility and Decorum are expected

Please take the time to read those links. They will better help you understand how we do things around here. If you have a problem with another member, send a complaint and the whole staff will have a chance to look at it.

I have just finished going through this thread and the only person I see making direct attacks against another member is you. Now those posts are over and done with. Lets start fresh and try to remain focused on the subject of your story WITHOUT the personal attacks.

If you haven't already, although you agreed to them when you signed up, please read the Terms and Conditions of the website.

We really do value every member here and your no exception. As I all ready stated, I think your story is intriguing and believable but you must abide by the rules of the forum. I think having you here as a contributor is important and adds a lot to the credibility of your claim.

If you want to talk to me personally, send me a u2u.

reply to post by GAOTU789


GAOTU789

Thank you for your calming words of wisdom - Nice to know that there is more than one of you on this Forum who is prepared to openly accept that my story COULD, at least, be true - When the truth is finally out, you will have the pleasure of being one of the thousands who also had an open mind and so will be rewarded by self satisfaction!

When your very identity and even war record is being questioned by disbelievers it is very hard and particularly in your twilight years to not react and blow a gasket! I did this a few times on the AVIATION FORUM but with a lesser scar on my record than from here. I am sorry that I lost my temper but am not sorry for the reasons this happened and will try to keep calm even under what is more often than not, extreme provocation.

I think the next step for any semblance of considered debate to commence is for APM45 to produce the evidence that he claims refutes my account of meeting Bader in 1942, without that evidence being produced, the discussion is as they say, dead in the water.

Sorry, but I cannot because of my prehistoric computer contact you other than like so.

Kenneth Williams

As has been stated over and over again, the only way for the "Bader Mystery" to have any credibility is if the reasons are iterated that Ken had in 1942 to be so certain that this person was Bader. Without that, there is no case to answer.

I have an entirely open mind as my discussions with DogHead show. I do not believe a word of this "Mystery", but that is because Ken has not, or cannot, produce any fundamental reason that I should do so. Should it turn out that Bader was released temporarily from captivity in 1942, I will be very surprised, but if that is the truth then so be it. So, let that truth be shown by proof, not assumption, guesses and wild surmise. Ken, you started this, it is for you to show that you and your story are worth serious consideration. By the way - there have been no lies or misinformation made by this party, I have consistently asked you to stand behind your assertions, nothing more. You say however in your recent post that you have no evidence, thus your enticement for me to give you my full identity that that you had "morsels concerning your time with Bader" seems to be misinformation at least.

Make your case, man!




[edit on 13-2-2008 by SPM.45]

As I very recently suggested could be the case, the prospect of further meaningful discussion and/or debate IS DEAD IN THE WATER.


Kenneth Williams - True to myself to the end.

Ken,

Meaningful debate is only being stifled by your refusal to articulate the source of your conviction that the person that you met was Bader.

Such refusal can really lead to only one conclusion - that the only source you had was that you were told by a third party - your manager or whoever - that that person was Bader and there was no other contemporary corroboration and, inter alia, such an fundamental admissal makes the entire Bader "Mystery" untenable.

SPM.45

I honestly cannot imagine that Bader, in a secret and obviously delicate mission in the UK (when he was supposed to be a prisoner of war in Germany) would have booked a room in any public hotel. I seriously cannot imagine that any bellboy would have been granted permission to undo his shoelaces while he was there.

Providing Bader WAS in England at that time, I am sure that his presence would have been kept as secret as any best kept secret could be kept. The possibility of him been given a room in Downing Street would be far greater than the possibilty of tracking him down in a liverpudlian hotel.

Bader was a hero. If he had turned up anywhere in the UK at that time clearly others would have noticed this other than Kenneth Williams.

There are people who believe that it was not the Titanic that sunk, but her sister the Olympic. These people defend their theory by stating that the two ships were swapped at the builders yard in one week for some gigantic insurance fraud. These people don't seem to realise that there were some 15000 people working at that yard at that time. Do they possibly believe that every single one of them would have kept quiet after the loss of the Titanic and that appaling loss of life?

If Bader HAD been in the UK when he was meant to be a prisoner of war, why is it that NOBODY noticed apart from Kenneth Williams? How did he get to that hotel? By taxi? By train? Did he have his own driver? Why didn't anybody else notice? After all he was appearing in public! Where did he go to after he left the hotel? Why didn't anyone else see him?

To me the answers are clear.

My ten cents!
Peter

reply to post by Peter Garner


Peter,

I'd say your ten cents are top dollar!

I now find your present stance on the matter of if Douglas Bader was briefly in Liverpool or not in1942 somewhat baffling.

For many months if not years you and some of your associates from another place have been hounding me incessantly and you in particular have steadfastly shouted to the rooftops that I am variously a liar, a deluded old man, an imposter, and an enemy of the once great Douglas Bader etc.

Your cry has always been that as DB was a POW from 1941 until 1945 and that is the official line, and it is set in concrete in the history books, therefore there can be no way that he came back to England in 1942 as I not only claim with a conviction greater than yours, but not to forgot that that regardless of what you, the history books or the Government want to feed to the world at large, I know that he was there and nothing will EVER change my testimony.

Suddenly however, you have changed your attitude and are now not quite so sure in your attempts to put me and my story down but, are now basing your argument against me along the lines of “How do I know it was Bader that I was involved with at the Stork Hotel?” I thought that you were totally convinced that he could not have been there or indeed in England at that time?

Believe me, you and any other doubters, if you had been confronted by Douglas Bader perched on a shabby wartime backwater hotel room chair in his underpants and vest with the stumps of his amputated legs exposed to full view and, his artificial legs lying on the floor next to him, you would have known who you were with!

Then when you tried to make conversation with a man who is now regarded by many but not all who came in contact with him during the war to have been a nasty ill mannered, ill tempered self centered bully who regarded those such as I, a common waiter, to be so far below his social standing that I was working class scum, you WOULD know as I did that this was not some senseless jape perpetrated by those with much more important duties to perform. Then notwithstanding the fact that you were being treated like a piece of excrement by this “Great Hero” you did, without any experience or medical background do what he curtly told you to do and massaged his stumps with methylated spirits then helped him to install his legs and in return did not even get a pleasant thank you just a non committal grunt of dismissal.

I now ask you all, who, why and for what good reason would anybody present such a scenario as a prank, jape or joke on an intelligent 19 year soon to go off to war?

THAT IS HOW I KNOW I WAS DEALING WITH DOUGLAS BADER and you and this Forum are the first people ever who have been given that fuller description of my encounter with Douglas Bader.

Now back to you APM 45. I am amazed that as you want so badly to prove my story bogus why now, as you claim to have a gilt edged witness who can with conviction debunk my story, do you not make every effort to produce her or sworn evidence from her to prove her authenticity and provide her genuine account of what you now regard as the TRUE events back in 1942?

Do this and you will have won the argument I presume so what are you waiting for? But should you fail to do this, you are obviously history.

To reiterate, those who would have read all my story from day one three years ago will know that I went to great pains to concede that I HAD NO EVIDENCE to substantiate my story and that any theories that I put forward to support my claims were and STILL are just that, THEORIES. I also said that the whole thrust of my publishing the story was to hopefully find supporting evidence and, I AM STILL TRYING despite the efforts of the sadly out of step SPM45’s of this world!

Please don’t keep on telling me I have no supporting evidence – I KNOW!!!!

However, other supporting evidence WILL be produced sooner or later when the Government releases some more WWII closed files – IT WILL HAPPEN be sure, with the proviso, of course that your star witness provided via “The Man from The Planet of The Apes” and fully authenticated can prove me hopelessly wrong.

Now please leave me in peace and let me know when “Ruby” is available for interrogation. I have many questions that will quickly prove her authenticity or otherwise.



Kenneth Williams

It's not evidence that is needed at this point but the basis for your conviction, and if I read you aright, you thought this guy "must" be Bader because he was rude, not even saying one word to you, and he had artificial legs.

So - the Bader "Mystery" all hangs on a guess that a legless, rude man must be Bader. Hardly gilt edged. I'm somewhat confused though - in a previous post you said that you couldn't release this information owing to its "sensitive" nature and I struggle to see anything here that is remotely sensitive.

There's clearly no mystery here. Bader was a POW in Germany 1941 - 45.




[edit on 14-2-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by SPM.45


Bring on Ruby


KW

reply to post by SPM.45


AND, There's clearly no Ruby here. Bader was in Liverpool ibn 1942.

reply to post by SPM.45



Hey, if you can't arrange to bring on Ruby. O.K. I'll settle for Molly!


KW

There are another few non-sequiters in Ken's account.

Ken says he knew this was Bader due to his manner - but in 1942 how many people would have known Bader to be such a man? The wartime press certainly did not do down the national heroes in the way the modern press does and so it's most likely that the general public would have had no idea about the character of Bader. Even after the war, this aspect of Bader's character did not really reach the public ear - Reach for the Sky, in both book and film, only hint as to the real character of the man. So this as an identifier seems to benefit more from hindsight than any contemporary knowledge.

Similarly the description of a man sitting unkempt in his underwear with the legs on the floor goes against the description of the man - Reach for the Sky relates how Bader learned soon after becoming legless to prop his legs within reach - while I acknowledge that RFTS is something of a hagiography that seems an unlikely thing for Brickhill to have tried to "spin". So again, the witness account does not really add up.

Ken, Doghead has already addressed you on why there is no need to "produce" Ruby further. You have her testimony, it is as valid as your own unsupported word. I find Doghead a credible source.

I am now certain that Ken helped a legless man in 1942 that he took to be Bader, but it was not. Naturally proud to have helped a national hero, as he thought, he most likely would have told his family and friends of this incident. Later, Ken became aware that at the time that he was at the Stork helping this unknown amputee, Bader was already in captivity and in an attempt to understand the contradiction, managed to speak to Bader on the phone. Bader, for whatever reason, "remembered" Ken and from that moment the "Bader Mystery" was born.



[edit on 14-2-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by SPM.45


There is clearly no "Man from The Planet of The Apes" as clearly as there is no Ruby.

Douglas Bader was in Liverpool in August 1942.

KW

Simple gainsaying is no substitute for reasoned analysis, or rebuttal, Ken.

We have seen that your basis is without certainty, your identification without merit and all the basic facts open to question.

The case collapses.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by SPM.45


NOTICE TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS

To be able to sensibly and fairly question the authenticity of my narrative and the claims therein, it is ESSENTIAL that those who would attempt to deny the truth of my story be FULLY familiar with my narrative.

From the last two posts from SPM 45 it is patently obvious that he is totally unfamiliar with my narrative and in particular the events leading up to my meeting with Bader, the time lapse until speaking to him again in Sydney many years later, and the vitally important comments I made on this aspect of my story. SPM 45 does not know of these vitally iimportant aspects of my story or he does, and chooses to ignore this information.

I cannot and will not continue to stand toe to toe and argue with someone who has so obviously not read my FULL narrative and who answers questions put to him by further questions and denials.

Therefore I will discontinue further discussion with APM 45 and all who do not know what it is that they are discussing but, will be happy to talk to anyone who is FULLY aware of the subtext of my complex story.

I hope now that having disposed of those with blinkered vision and closed minds that some sensible and fruitful investigation can commence.

Kenneth Williams

Well then! Providing Bader WAS in Liverpool in 1942, what was he doing there? Surely there must have been some agreement between the cabinet and the german high command; otherwise why would any german authority be prepared to let a prisoner of war dash home on a secret mission? The fact that Bader was chosen for this mission makes Bader substantially unsuited for it. I can just picture him limping across a field in the middle of the night towards a parked Lysander with its engine running with those onboard rolling their eyes begging him to get on with it so they can get back to safety. Besides: WHY would they chose Bader in the first place? What did Bader have that any other RAF officer in Colditz did not have? Nothing! On the contrary: what did any other officer in Colditz have, that Bader did not have? A great deal! At least they could - should it be necessary - walk or even run properly. And: they wouldn't be recognised in public.

Should the german high command and the war cabinet have come to some sort of agreement to let a POW travel home on some sort of secret mission, the german high command would have observed this POW intensly to make sure that the german interests were well maintained during this mssion. What sort of agreement could this have been? A peace Mission? In 1942? When the german high command was convinced that they would win the conflict? With Douglas Bader as an secret agent? C'mon!

I can assure you that the german high command would have been very upset indeed with Bader jeopardising this secret mission by popping up in a Liverpool hotel! I would even go as far as saying that this would have garanteed him being shot on his return.

What pressure would the german high command put on Bader to garantee his return after the successful completion of this mission? "Vee vill shuut oll yor fello inmates shood yu not retön by zen-and zen!"

I have to admit that I have never studied Bader intensly. I have seen "Reach for the Sky" more than once, and I have stumbled accross his name every now and then when reading about the Battle of Britain. However, I do realise that he was difficult person to deal with, who was only interested in one thing: himself! What then would then force him to return to Germany after succesfull completion of his mission?

But let's get back to the germans. I really can't see that the german chancellor (Herr Hitler) would have approved sending a prisoner of war back to his home country on any kind of secret mission; and most certainly not Bader. They could have just as well sent Herman Göring instead! Providing any other authority decided to do this behind Hitler's back this would have resulted in any thoroughbred nationalsocialist nearby tittle-tattling this action to his superiors and thus garanteeing that the aforementioned authority would be shot at dawn.

You will see: it's not as easy as saying: he was here on a secret mission! It was Bader because I saw him!

reply to post by RNM1945


There's nothing complex here, Ken - your story is fantasy built on assumption. Your story has been sensibly and fairly questioned, and the result of that is that it is clear that the bottom line is that you assumed this was Bader, and that simply is not tenable. Ignoring me or adding flannel about assumed subtexts do not change that basic truth.



[edit on 14-2-2008 by SPM.45]

Peter - Exactly. This is from one of my earlier posts which follows your lines of thought:

Bader was classed by the Germans pretty much from day 1 as a hostile prisoner owing to his attitude towards them - this was what got him the room at Colditz. It seems unlikely that the Germans would select someone so hostile to them if they were to attempt to broker some sort of a deal. If Bader was on some sort of covert diplomatic mission, quite apart from the unlikely timing of it, can you think of a less diplomatic candidate to select? The Germans had far more useful prisoners such as Giles Romily, Churchill's nephew. A covert operation that employs one of the most distinctive people imaginable? Hardly likely.

In the same way, were this really a mission so covert that papers are still secret, would the main protagonist really would be housed in a public hotel where his presence was openly disclosed to junior staff? We also know that Bader jealously guarded the privilege of his batman, as Alec Ross' experience in Colditz shows, yet we are asked to accept that he was alone in the hotel and needed the hotel to send up a lad to assist him.

If his presence was to do with his legs, why was he not at Roehampton at the leg hospital? We know from the photos of him with Galland that the legs could be worked on by the German staff and if he needed a new stump cast making, this could have been arranged via the Red Cross. In 1942 the Germans were not co-operating with repatriation even of the most desperate cases so it seems most unlikely that this was a medical requirement, and again this would hardly seem likely to require 100 year sealed papers.



[edit on 14-2-2008 by SPM.45]

reply to post by Peter Garner


Peter Garner,

You, like your new found friend AMP 45 have no right whatsover to publish to this Forum the rubbish that you have just completed.

You have NO IDEA of what you are talking about as there is no way known to man that you have the slightest idea what my Bader Enigma story is about or trying to solve or have even read one word of it.

Go away and play somewhere else!

Kenneth Williams