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The Douglas Bader Mystery

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posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by dowot
 


It's possible that a different provider was used - I think Desoutters suffered bomb damage, and if memory serves, Bader's stump casts were damaged. Don't quote me on that though, I'm not sure of it. I couldn't say if Desoutters legs were radically different from Critchleys. I suspect you're right, after the first war, there must have been many firms turning out prosthetic limbs.

Desoutter were one of the first to make aluminium legs, starting from about 1912 when they made legs for Marcel Desoutter who had been injured in an aircraft crash.

On radar - Chain Home, the first system to be put in place, had been extended right up the East coast to the northern tip of Scotland by September 1940.

One last point on the Dyce JU 88 though, it couldn"t have been tracked up the East Coast" as the aircraft departed from Kristiansand in Norway, If you join Kristiansand and Dyce, you see that the aircraft was flying virtually due west and straight at Scotland. Its likely that the first radar contact was made by the Peterhead CHL station or one of its near neighbours as the most Easterly sited station in Scotland. I doubt any of the other stations further south saw as much as a blip on their screens as the aircraft came virtually straight at Peterhead and was intercepted 15 miles due East of the station. Yes, I'm being a bit pedantic but the interpretation of such statements can be misconstrued if one does not seek to get behind what could just be a loosely phrased statement.
edit on 4-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 01:42 PM
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I attach an interesting photo showing Bader climbing out of his Spitfire which may give some colour to the descriptions of Baders mobility The aircraft bears his W/C pennant and personal DB code so was taken in early 1941





posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:24 PM
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Regarding Dyce. I was interested in timings, as it might have been built just because of flights from the Axis countries. Closing door after the horse has bolted, if you see what I mean. Must admit I had not realised that CHL was completed so early. I have always been intrigued by this aspect of the 2nd WW. Bournemouth Uni started to do some research, some years ago, I must find out what happened. I used to live down there and wandered the New Forest, finding all sorts of war left overs.

Back to DB.
If he was allowed to leave Germany, what would his flight plan have been? (I know he did not fly the plane, or did he? I believe he tried to persuade someone to let him have a go and I can see him asking, like I did when in Asia, I just had to have a drive!).
What would be the logistics of the round trip?

How about rations, everything was counted, so would he have had to have some sort of coupon and if so, the hotel would have had to have seen them, as well as hold them while he was there. That was the norm for everyone in those times I think.

When you think of how controlled everything was, it seems amazing anything could happen that was not known about. The fact that it did, just shows how difficult total control would be.

I uncovered an interesting post war recounting of an encounter with Bader in 1975. Gives a bit more depth to how the man thought. limblossinformationcentre.com...

There seems a range of designs and specs. for false legs, probably specific to each producer. I wonder if this could be in some ways useful.

Did I read somewhere that the replacement false leg, parachuted to him, arrived as part of some bombing raid? Or was this a dream? It seems it was delivered by a lone Bristol Beaufighter.

Records of this event are available, both in UK and German records, so would not there be some record somewhere if he had been released, the Germans were very careful about paperwork I think.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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Just a quickie, relating to the photo. That's a Spitfire is it not, I thought he flew Hurricanes..Now that would be fun, to find that that photo was post 1942!

Another photo on this page, showing how difficult it was to get into a Hurry. llic.design2.coreware.co.uk...



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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Interesting post and the article too. The raid that delivered baders leg was circus 81 - six Blenheim bombers from 18 sq with a fighter escort. Having dropped the leg near st Omer the circus moved on to Gosnay where the power station was bombed

Bader flew hurricanes with 242 but then spitfires with 19, 222, 66 and as w/c Tangmere Wing

by the way the photo of bader getting in is a spit too but that is a postwar photo !



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by SPM.45
 


SPM45

Whilst on the one hand you show a photo of Bader climbing out of an aircraft cockpit as though to prove that he was omnipotent, any thinkig viewer of the photo would immediately observe that there are three men close at hand in case Bader should fall or otherwise not make it as no doubt happened now and then, unless of course you can produce you usual set in concrete evidence to the contrary that I am sure you will!.

Sad to say SPM45 your bias shows in every post that you submit to this and every other Forum you have posted to .Take my recent posted info on the Dyce matter that is dated 8 years ago, not found on Google in the last few days or so. Every post that is submitted suggesting an avenue or motive for Bader to have visited Liverpool when he did, you put down staright away with pseudo authorative reasons why it could have never happened. You have never once over all these years ever conceded that it in any way shape or form it could have happened.

In view of this lack of useful dialogue I have to say that until such time that you can for example, provide concrete data to prove that Bader was really in that cooler for 10 days and be prepared to consider the possibilities that he wasn't there, there is no point in me being involved in discussions with someone who constantly trumpets that I have no proof when I already have long ago many times declared that fact.

You obvously do have a sinister agenda and I shall leave you to continue your negative and totally unhelpful campaign against me whilst I am confident that some day the story will break, I was just hoping it would do so whilst I am still alive but am happy in knowing that there is a growing band of believers in me and my story and they will raise a glass to me when I am gone.

The truth, someone once said, is always rejected at first, then considered and then finally accepted, or words along those lines.

Tallyho and can an eye for bandits coming out of the Sun

KW



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 12:48 AM
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Absolutely, a sensible precaution I would say. One man appears to be leaning on the wing as if to steady the aircraft from moving about. And -maybe- one of the other men would provide a steadying hand. Who knows. The positions of the men do not suggest that they are about to provide any thing more than a shoulder to lean on as he stepped down from the wing or are ready to catch him if he loses his balance This fits exactly with the descriptions of Bader - very able to get about independently but sometimes would accept a diplomatic helping hand. Neither of the men is holding a walking stick to hand over though! Youve said that he could not handle stairs without sticks but this photo shows a man quite able to do so as stairs are much less of a challenge than climbing in or out of a spitfire cockpit.

Certainly I do not believe that your story happened and every bit of evidence, when analysed, falls away. However you are wrong to say that I reject the possibility entirely, as of course you do also in discounting any evidence that conflicts with your view. As I said to you earlier, odd things do happen but there is a weight of evidence that suggests your version is incorrect and as you've said you have never tracked down any evidence.

I have provided concrete proof in the shape of the IRC and I even gave you the date. Its hard to think how much more concrete it could get short of an affidavit from bader himself. The IRC are reputable independent and the evidence stacks up with other known facts so I see no reason to question it

The evidence about the ju88 however is far less satisfactory when approached with a forensic eye. Firstly the incident has no direct connection to bader so is only persuasive of possibility. secondly the statements in the letter have a good deal of supposition in them - in the case of the flight path where there is no back up for the statement that the aircraft was tracked by British radar "right up the east coast" and as I showed this does not fit the most likely flight path. One cannot be certain but simple logic says that the aircraft would have taken the most direct path and knowing its start point and final destination makes it most likely that it did not fly up the east coast but straight across the north sea and into the radar coverage from the most easterly part of Scotland where it was then intercepted. Thirdly the previous flight into debden, taken as read in the letter, is questioned elsewhere as "suggested". Overall it can't be said that this proves regular flights by German aircraft into the uk and the fact that the aircraft was shot at by the airfield defences despite being escorted in by the intercepting spitfires would tend to suggest that the gunners were not used to seeing German aircraft flying in to dyce. None of this proves or disproves your story but taking a critical eye to it shows it does not really amount to much more than an individual incident.

I would put it to you that this is useful dialogue as such an approach removes the spurious. While I happily admit I am coming from the opposite side of the debate, I am simply applying logic. If that logic can be challenged then by all means do so as that is what debate is all about and the only way you will ever get to the bottom of your story is by challenging it. Simply accepting everything at face value will just give you a mass of uncorrelated and meaningless coincidence and hearsay which will prove nothing. Let's not get back into accusations of sinister agendas and all the rest. It's perfectly possible to reach alternative conclusions and lets keep this adult and civilised.
edit on 5-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 02:02 AM
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If it was not so serious it would be hysterica!

SPM45 The probelm is that you just can't help yourself. More put downs more rebuttals that you believe show I am wrong on evry bleedin count! You go so far as to virtually say that the three men in your photo were just bystanders!

You have not even mentioned the thrust of my post about verifying that Bader was in the cooler, why? Because you just don't want to even think that he came to Liverpool or can bear to think it could have happened because you mate, are besotted with Bader who sadly in many other eyes was an utter bore and you know exactly what I am talking about.

Take this paragraphf rom you last post...

Certainly I do not believe that your story happened and every bit of evidence, when analysed, falls away. However you are wrong to say that I reject the possibility entirely, as of course you do also in discounting any evidence that conflicts with your view.....SPM45 you are the one that has a view, I am the one who has had the real 3d life experience! with Douglas Bader!

There is obviously no point whatsover in continuing this discussion/ argument with you and I have new and better things to do in my declining years. My new Fujifilm X-10 advanced digital camera arrived to-day and I will soon be totally iinvolved in setting up its many parameters and then having a great time using it.

I don't have any idea of what you do for kicks but I caanot imagine that under any circumsstances I would wish to swap places with you for al the tea in China!

I hope you at some later time in your life get over your terrible bitternes, envy and the need to espouse your biased and often badly flawed views on the world diminis,h and you are able to step back and look at yourself, a very sad and lonely old man.

Take care

KW



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 02:07 AM
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Oh dear here we go again.

I hope everyone will note just who is refusing to debate in an adult fashion
edit on 5-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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Royal Navy Medic has left the building......



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 04:44 AM
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Well that's a shame. It was beginning to look like we could have got some clarity on your story but your inability to discuss alternatives sensibly does you no favours
edit on 5-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 05:05 AM
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Originally posted by dowot
Just a quickie, relating to the photo. That's a Spitfire is it not, I thought he flew Hurricanes..Now that would be fun, to find that that photo was post 1942!

Another photo on this page, showing how difficult it was to get into a Hurry. llic.design2.coreware.co.uk...


Bader transitioned to Spitfires at Tangmere when he was promoted to Wing Commander in early 1941. When the wing transitioned from Spit II's to Spit V's, He was noted for taking a 8 ×.303 Browning armed Spit Va for his personal machine over the Two 20 mm Hispano/ 4 .303 Browning offered by the b wing Mk.V's saying the greater volume of fire power of the 8 ×.303 gave better results vs. the BF109E/F's.

In individual cases of airmen possessing superior marksmanship, possibly he was correct however he was shot down prior to the introduction of the FW190 which were more robust than their stablemates.

Here he is returning from a rhubarb flight over France with Spifire Mk VA serial W3185 "D-B", the aircraft he was flying when shot down.



Regarding the topic, I am enjoying the exchange. I believe RNmedic1942 is sincere and by no means a Walter Mitty however I have seen nothing to convince me that Bader was anywhere but Colditz until 1945.

A good story but....



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 07:57 AM
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I really don't undesrtand where the stalker is coming from or if he can even comprehend what my quest is all abou,t so for the umpteenth time and for others getting involved without any idea where I am coming from, see if you can follow this.

(a) The stalker complains endlessly that I am not willing to engage in sensible debate. What does he mean sensible debate? I didn't come here to debate reasons and theories as to why I am supposed to be wrong in his VIEW and listen to the stalker putting everything I have to say down. Not by any means, I came here looking for HELP in finding the reasons why Bader came back in 1942 so any form of debate is not what is needed.

(b) What was/is needed is HELP in looking for clues and reasons for his visit not reasons why he couldn't have come back. The stalker has made it very very clear the he does NOT believe my story and never will, so tell me, what I am supposed to debate?????

(c) All he wants to do is endlessly repeat that it never happened and has nothing else to do but keep on trying to make himself some kind of supreme expert as well as the judge, jury and executioner. So stalker, why no go to a debating club somewhere and debate your little socks off.

I have no interest in you now whatsoever, you are like a faulty 78 rpm record with the needle stuck in the groove.

My challenge to you is go find and publish ON THIS FORUM evidence that Bader was in the cooler for the FULL 10 days, publish the source of your evidence and full documentation to support what you claim. I am sure that you will find this just as difficult to produce as I am in finding evidence to support my true experience.

Any interested readers please note that I have thrown down this challenge to the stalker and note what his response, if any will be and judge HIM on just that, nothing else!

If you don't believe my story that's fine with me but just make your point and then move on as I been there, done that before so many times. I am looking for bright enquiring minds who can dispassionatly help me look for answers unlike the stalker who is totally biased and unproductive and should have moved on long ago but..HE HAS AN AGENDA!

KW



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by Drunkenparrot
 


Drunken Parrot

It is sad when people like you make broad statements as you have just done stating that Bader was nowhere else but in Colditz until 1945.....WRONG............ do your homework an dfind the FACTS!



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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What you want is for everyone to cowtow to you. It's not going to happen. If you make statements on a public forum that you can't back up without shouting like some petulant child then that's your problem.

I've made it very clear I will engage with you in a civilised fashion. My stance regarding your story is of no import, anymore than a counsel for the prosecution in a court. If you can't deal with that then you should never have brought this matter into public forums

edit on 5-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by RNmedic1942
reply to post by Drunkenparrot
 


Drunken Parrot

It is sad when people like you make broad statements as you have just done stating that Bader was nowhere else but in Colditz until 1945.....WRONG............ do your homework an dfind the FACTS!


He was nowhere but Colditz from mid 1942 untill 1945, after his stay at the hospital in St. Omer France and brief time at Stalag Luft III in Zagan, Poland.

I believe the evidence shows that Bader was in Colditz during the time in question.

Happy?



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Drunkenparrot. You'll soon come to realise that rnmedic has two standards of proof - one for him ("i have no proof but I'm right") and one for every one else ("I challenge you to present concrete evidence")

:-)

Apparently the international red cross report documenting bader in a german cell at the time is a lesser standard of proof than rnmedics dodgy 70 year old memories

You really couldn't make it up



edit on 5-4-2012 by SPM.45 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 07:00 PM
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Firstly.....

My challenge to you is go find and publish ON THIS FORUM evidence that Bader was in the cooler for the FULL 10 days, publish the source of your evidence and full documentation to support what you claim. I am sure that you will find this just as difficult to produce as I am in finding evidence to support my true experience.

Secondly.....

I now know what you about SPM45, you are one these people who likes to question other people but when YOU are asked a question you will ALWAYS respomd with another question and the reason you will not discuss the 10 days Bader allegedly spent in the cooler is because you know damn well that your precious statement by the IRC that Bader WAS in the cooler does in no way indicate or otherwise prove that he was there for the whole 10 days, and you also know damn well that these facts are pivotal to that my proving my story is true as I have evidence that he was not in the cooler for 10 days by virtue of the FACT that he was in Liverpool for part of that 10 day period, so for you to prove me wrong you must now sort out the cooler story.

From this day on, any inpiuts you might make will be always answered by the first paragraph of this post,

As for you drunken parrot (what a great name), because what you are publishing on this Forum.is not a reflection of the true facts you are now in the eyes of SPM45 his ally and friend but I suggest to you that you check again what you have said to avoid making a fool of yourself.

Over and out

KW



posted on Apr, 5 2012 @ 10:56 PM
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PS for SPM.45

Hey! what about tis guy Drunken Parrot (must have had too much) We are BOTH wrong about Bader and his accomodation whilst a Prominente POW in Germany......The truth according to DP from the Ozarks no doubt is that Bader was at St.Omer, then Stalag Luft III and finally Colditz!

Geez! I am mortified to think we both have been barking up the wrong Stalags for all these years!

Hurry away and correct all your records and give thanks to the man from the Ozarks for putting us right.

KW

edit on 5/4/12 by RNmedic1942 because: spelling corrections



posted on Apr, 6 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



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