Why is there a problem in this? I thought in a competitive business world that people could get together to make deals as they see fit. I guess cutting out Israel and its other hand the 'US' is not perceived as being good for profits.

The aim should be to economically cripple Iran forcing them into demcratic reforms this is where deals such as this once could only extend the life of the current regime. The US has utterly failed to to deal with Iran's nuclear program and it is going to be an long time before the US has an true working and effective relationship with Turkey again.

Originally posted by xpert11
The aim should be to economically cripple Iran forcing them into demcratic reforms this is where deals such as this once could only extend the life of the current regime. The US has utterly failed to to deal with Iran's nuclear program and it is going to be an long time before the US has an true working and effective relationship with Turkey again.

Crippling the Iranian economy will hurt iranian citizens more than it will hurt the government. If instituting democracy in a foreign nation was only a question of outside forces crushing the economy, democracy would be rapant in most of south america. But instead, the area has a complete lack of economic and social liberties, justice for the few, poverty for the many. No crippling Iran's economy will simply victimize the population further.

The only way I see an air war against Iran being avoided is if sufficient deterrent could be put in place and the missile defence system is widely adopted. Also you have to remember that most South American countries aren't competing with the US for regional and global influence. The Soviet Union is the most famous example of an state caving in economical although it remains to be seen just how many of the reforms and freedoms will be retained in Russia.

Originally posted by xpert11
The only way I see an air war against Iran being avoided is if sufficient deterrent could be put in place and the missile defence system is widely adopted. Also you have to remember that most South American countries aren't competing with the US for regional and global influence. The Soviet Union is the most famous example of an state caving in economical although it remains to be seen just how many of the reforms and freedoms will be retained in Russia.

Granted, but the US National Security Apparatus deemed the social revolution in dozens of those countries as enough of a threat as to launch overt and covert strikes using direct military and indirect mercinary forces.

Besides that your statement was this:

The aim should be to economically cripple Iran forcing them into demcratic reforms...

My reply was this:

Crippling the Iranian economy will hurt iranian citizens more than it will hurt the government. If instituting democracy in a foreign nation was only a question of outside forces crushing the economy, democracy would be rapant in most of south america...

I dont really see the relevance of the level of competition between economic and social orders and the necessity of crippling an economy. What justification could possibly be offered when examining the case of south america and the fact that many of the governments crushed were fought for with the blood, sweat, tears, and voices of the people? How does one instill democracy by crushing the economy and what good is political democracy without economic democracy?

Putting aside the US involvement in South America for another thread I will deal with the other issues at hand. With economic power comes influence for example as China continues to expand economically there influence as an global power will only increase. So Iran's economic strength can be linked to the amount of influence they have in the region and globally.

Iran's economy is already in poor shape so it just needs to be pushed down the final sink hole. In order to restore economic growth Iranian leaders could be forced to give people greater freedom in order to free there minds and ideas . When you suppress people you usually supress there incentive and means to produce ideas and products.

The other option is that Iran could under reforms similar to what China did in the 80s and 90s while this wouldn't lead to an democracy which is the most desirable outcome the government of Iran would at least have to spend more money on education then they do on sponsoring terrorism.

As far as politics go, I would say Iran has less problems than the US does. In case anyone knows, they have business deals in the energy, manufacturing and technology sector with a multitude of country's in the world. The only people that have a beef with them now is the US.

India, Malaysia, South Korea, China, Russia, Turkey, and many other central and south pacific Asian countries have strong economic ties with Iran. I see no reason to why people would want to destabalize and cripple their economy. It is doing rather well on its own now without Western "assistance".

What are we to gain by destroying their economy? Can anyone explain?

Cheney is just jealous he couldn't build his pipeline through Afghanistan.

Why can't Iran have good relations with its neighbor and cut out a foreign power?

I don't see the big deal. We act in our best interest overseas, but as soon as someone else does that...Wow, what a travesty.

We should just bomb Iran because of their insolence!

Bah.

Come on people, we are not policemen of the world. We don't have the right to meddle in other's business.

Let Iran and Turkey use gas as a way to boost their economy. Haven't we done enough damage in the area?

Bush may think this is an act of war, but its really not. His ignorant head can't wrap the idea that people actually don't like the way the US behaves in regards to its foreign policy. Maybe he does and couldn't care less...



Proposed Cheneyite pipeline:





To think, the military-industrial complex wanted a monopoly on natural resources.

I am so happy at least one country has enough cahones to stand up for what's right.

Maybe I'll move to Iran hm...

I think the US's anger towards Turkey stems from the initial invasion of Iraq. The US wanted to use Turkey as a staging area but I don't think Turkey went along as planned. Turkey has already drawn up plans to invade northern Iraq and has massed troops on the border. They have been pleading with the US to handle the PKK but nothing has been done. Turkey has to look out for itself only, not US interests in the area. This is a great move by Turkey imo. On a side note, China has recently invested billions of dollars in Turkey. I have Turkish TV so I have seen a lot of coverage on this lately.

In order to restore economic growth Iranian leaders could be forced to give people greater freedom in order to free there minds and ideas . When you suppress people you usually supress there incentive and means to produce ideas and products.

I believe you got it a little bit twisted. Its not Iranian minds that need freeing, they dont really have that problem. I think its the people in the West that need to get that done.

Iran has every right as much as US to have economic influence regionally and across the globe.

Iran, as a country, has done far less negative influence in their region, and the world at large in the last century than the West has done in only the last fifty years.

I dont believe Iran's economy becoming destroyed would benefit Us at all, because we would still not be able to instill a puppet regime as has been the case in at least a dozen nations since the Great Wars. The last one we put in was ousted, do you think its gonna to work a second time?

in any case, the us is the only one on the 'destroy irans economy' bandwagon. just do a google search on irans business deals. many of the US'S own allies have signed deals with them as well on energy and manufactuing. wondering why/ because most of the rest of the world is not blind, its the other way around.

Well Iran clearly has economic problems so you can hardly say that it is westerns who should make the changes in this case. While Iran has the right to have influence in the region the US is an competitor and Iran doesn't have the right to sponsor terrorist organisation's but that is another topic. As for the statement that the west has had an more negative influence then has had in the last fifty years well that is really an bit stretch but I will also leave that matter for another topic.

Well I sure would prefer that the like of the governments in Europe were on the bandwagon when it comes winning an economic war against which IMO is preferable to military conflict. I said that crippling Iran's economy is the way to force internal reforms I never said that the US should overthrow the Iranian government.

The US should really learn to keep its nose out of other countries affairs
so what turkey are dealing with IRAN, not like Iran has commited a crime

the only thing i see here is the US being pissed off that Turkey are doing business with the country

how the fudge do you change a country by economicaly disabling it?
the people of that country know its your fault so any change will still mean
they will have a grudge for destroying their enconemy

how does destroying an econemy help the youth?
how does it effect the average Iranian?

all of them will suffer in the short/long run

so for your idea for change millions would have to suffer

ok just seen

Iran sponsoring terrorists?
hazbullah are seen as political groups by most countries, and i dont see how thats relivent as they dont sponsor as much as the US does which is relivent as soon as you bring in sponsoring terrorist groups into the picture.

and Iran isnt China or anything like it

Originally posted by bodrul

how the fudge do you change a country by economicaly disabling it?

By forcing its leaders to implement reforms in order to improve the economy or for them to hang onto power.

the people of that country know its your fault so any change will still mean
they will have a grudge for destroying their enconemy

Even without sanctions Iranian propaganda would blame the US for the countries problems. If there are any pro democracy elements in Iran they could use the economic conditions to turn people against there leaders. Its not a good idea to send the message that the US will aid any uprising against the Iranian government but the message should be sent that if people want things to get better demcratic reforms are required.

how does destroying an econemy help the youth?

It might motivate them to effect change in there country.

how does it effect the average Iranian?

Well the Iranian people already face oil rationing so they would face other shortages.

so for your idea for change millions would have to suffer

They are already suffering thanks to Iran's leaders and on some level the government of Iran is sponsoring the insurgency in Iraq but I want to leave that for another thread.




[edit on 18-7-2007 by xpert11]

Originally posted by xpert11
By forcing its leaders to implement reforms in order to improve the economy or for them to hang onto power.

hasnt Iraq shown you nothing?
how many children have died due to sanction
how many new borns have survived a couple of hours

The US is in no place to try and force or implament change in Iran
by doing this they arent improving Irans econemy infact they dont even have any trade relations with them so the US should really fudge off when it comes it that.

at forcing reforms. yea right by ensuring that no country trades with them thats really going to work.

Originally posted by xpert11
Even without sanctions Iranian propaganda would blame the US for the countries problems. If there are any pro democracy elements in Iran they could use the economic conditions to turn people against there leaders. Its not a good idea to send the message that the US will aid any uprising against the Iranian government but the message should be sent that if people want things to get better demcratic reforms are required.

like the pre Iranian revolution?
when the Iranians where controled by a US backed goverment

the second revolution backed by the US this time to get Iran back in the club USA

only except its done by throwing iranians into poverty amd support of a proxy group. sorry but when you say the US will help on another revolution it makes me laugh. the US has been fudged over by almost every country it has meddled in. why would it want to fudge with the same country twice.

you and your reforms, you really think you know whats best for Iran (not saying i do. hence why im not conding sanctions and things like that on the country)

messge should be sent to you guys
learn from history

Originally posted by xpert11
It might motivate them to effect change in there country.

yeah right

almost all iranians agree with their country and nuclear power
and tey support that.

hows that motivation? more like that would blossom support for their leaders as this will just show what type of people are out there.

Originally posted by xpert11
Well the Iranian people already face oil rationing so they would face other shortages.

and you condone this?
damn. they face oil shortages due to restrictions on equipment Iran can purchase from western countruies due to the US.


and you seriously think more restrictions will make like better because it will motivate them. you have a weird way of motivating people

Originally posted by xpert11
They are already suffering thanks to Iran's leaders and on some level the government of Iran is sponsoring the insurgency in Iraq but I want to leave that for another thread.

yes keep this out because it just as easy to impicate the US and sponsoring groups in Iran,Turkey and other countries.

personaly i think its retarded that people always bring in Iran and sponsoring terrorists when the US sponsors far more then IRAN

not saying the Retarded comment is aimed at you (just to clairify the last comment)

[edit on 18-7-2007 by bodrul]

Iraq is an differnt story and the lesson from Iraq is that when the chances came up to take Saddam out before the 03 invasion the US failed to take them. After the Gulf War Saddam wasn't looking to be an influential player in the region. But alas Iraq and Saddam is another topic.

Never underestimate how powerful weapon economics can be the Cold War certainly demonstrated this. You fail to grasp that I am not advocating that the US directly overthrow the Iranian regime. Well provided that the US can counter the regimes propaganda the economic and tied in social problems should be enough to either invoke reforms or cause an greater number of calls for change from inside Iran.



I would support any measure that would work towards the goal of crippling Iran's economy. Iran's economy is already in the toilet so all we have to now is make sure that the toilet is flushed.

sorry buddy you are quite wrong about iran's economy. thats part of the 'free your mind' from baseless propoganda. rationing gas temporarily does not mean your economy is about to collapse. obviously iran is not a member of the trillion dollar+ club, but that is due more to physical size of the country and population than anything else.

it really is irrelevant anyways how or why you feel that iran's economy needs to be destroyed, because dozens of countries that are trading with them on a regular basis, and signing new energy, technology, and manufacturing deals with them on a monthly basis disagree with that theory.

if the world believed it was in their best interest to destroy the american or european economies in order to make political reforms, i am sure you would be singing a different tune.