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What About My 72 Virgins?

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posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 02:09 PM
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One of the things we hear a lot about, is the alleged Koran promise of 72 virgins in heaven for the "faithful".

In the UK, young muslims talk about dead comrades as having been "72'ed" if they have died in the "service" of Islam.

It seems as though this is not really the case, but has been put forward by unscrupulous religious leaders as an interpretation of the Koran in order to make suicide bombers more susceptible to their propaganda.


Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
www.straightdope.com...


This is made even stranger by the fact that suicide,mentioned in the Koran, and mentioned in the Hadith as forbidden - although "martyrs" are not.


Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."
www.guardian.co.uk...


and this from a muslim scholar, for some balance:

In a published report, Hathout added, "There is nothing in the Koran or in Islamic teachings about 70 virgins or sex in Paradise. This is ridiculous, and every true Muslim knows that."[6] According to Hathout, "the worst-case scenario is that there is a deliberate spinning of the news. It is very fashionable now to present the Muslims as particularly susceptible to being crazy or blowing themselves up."[7] The Martyr's Reward in Islamic Tradition Maryati's and Hathout's claims aroused the ire of Sheikh Abd Al-Hadi Palazzi, head of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community. Sheikh Palazzi wrote: "The only ridiculous thing is that someone who claims to be an 'Islamic scholar' [i.e. Hathout] makes public statements which prove beyond any possible doubt that he has never read the Tafsir [Koranic commentary] of Ibn Kathir and the Sunan [religious rulings based on the customs of the Prophet] of Imam Al-Tirmidhi, which are basic books for the knowledge of Islam. Unfortunately, this attribution of chairs to ignoramuses seems to be the rule in American Islamic Centers controlled by the fundamentalist network of the Muslim Brotherhood."
memri.org...


It seems that the suicide bombers (or not-so-smart bombs) may be in for a bit of a surprise IF they get to paradise - after all, the Koran definition of martyr does not mention actually killing yourself deliberately, but it DOES forbid the killing of non-combatants or "innocents".


The Rules of War

On the question of rules of war, the Koran is quite clear: war itself is wholly understandable and acceptable (the first Moslems had to fight to maintain their faith), but must be conducted according to strict rules. It could be worthwhile to discuss how the other religious texts deal with the question of warfare. (Exodus 32 is a key text in the Christian theory of just wars.)

Many of these rules are contained in the Hadith, sayings attributed to Mohammed that post-date the Koran itself, but the Koran carries the seed. Islamic authorities emphasize the defensive nature of warfare, citing Koran 22:39-40. Surah 2:190-192 prohibit killing of noncombatants; 47:4 seems to set a limit on killing; 60:8 allows or advocates kindness to non-hostile unbelievers.

Historians of Islam note that the faith was often spread peacefully, by colonization, but that conquest was also important. Lapidus 42-45 summarizes the two "principles" implemented by the second Caliph, Umar:

The Arab conquerors were transformed into an "elite military caste who carried on further conquests…"

"[T]he conquered populations should be as little disturbed as possible. This meant that the Arab-Muslims did not, contrary to reputation, attempt to convert people … Muhammad had set the precedent of permitting Jews and Christians … to keep their religions, if they paid tribute. The Caliphate extended the same privilege [to newly conquered peoples]…. The Arabs had little missionary zeal."

As in other cultures, there is frequent debate in the contemporary Moslem world about whether all sides in a conflict are obeying the Koranic restrictions.

"Jihad"

This core concept has a range of meanings all based in the notion of struggle or striving. There can be interior jihad, of the struggle within one's soul. A frequently repeated report has Mohammed saying, after a battle, that the "greater jihad" is 'the jihad of someone against his desires." But jihad can include warfare, but it includes all other forms of struggle as well. There is an interesting discussion (one among several) of recent uses of "jihad" at:

www.washington-report.org...

Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr, who advised the Intellectual Heritage Program on the teaching of Islam while a member of Temple's Department of Religion, discusses jihad at:

www.al-islam.org...

Suicide and Martyrdom

The Koran makes it very clear that suicide is forbidden: 4:29. But it states several times that the martyr can expect an afterlife in paradise: they are "alive" (3:169), and have a blessed afterlife: 3:170-174,22:58. One man's "suicide bombers," then, are another's "martyrs." This makes it worthwhile to review the story of the founding figure of Islamic martyrdom, and one source of martyrdom's continuing appeal: the third Imam, Husayn, the grandson of Mohammed who was killed with a band of followers by the forces of the Caliph Yazid in 680
isc.temple.edu...


It's hardly news that followers of ANY religion are sometimes deceived by those they look to for spiritual guidance, but I would argue that, given the world circumstances at the moment, this is of particular relevance.




[edit on 16/7/2007 by budski]




posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 03:43 PM
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There is nothing, to my knowledge, which alleges that "martyrs" get 72 virgins when they die. It seems to me this has been a perversion of doctrine by some pretty twisted minds. I may be wrong, but that is the conclusion I have come to.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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Very twisted indeed and sad.

Who exactly are these 72 virgins and why is their fate to eternally service you?
Wouldn't sound like heaven to me if I were one of those women.

Seems like someone with a clear agenda is playing up on adolescent male lust to encourage a terrible act. Such a waste of life and such a shameful thing to do.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 04:11 PM
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72 Virginians. Big old farm boys no less.

Them martyrs sure are gonna be happy when they git there.

Corrupting the mind with religion is centuries old. Twisting the words of the (insert your book here) to work in conjunction with some grand scheme is also an age old trick. God said to do this on page...... see, it says right here....what? oh, that's just how they spoke back then. no, really, god said unto jerry, strap that bomb on your chest and blow yourself up....no, they didn't have bombs back then but they didn't have cars either and yet god is telling you to blow yourself to bits in front of the quickie mart which, by the way, did exist back then. jesus worked the slushee machine on weekends, not on the sabbath tho. that would have been wrong



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
72 Virginians. Big old farm boys no less.

Them martyrs sure are gonna be happy when they git there.

Corrupting the mind with religion is centuries old. Twisting the words of the (insert your book here) to work in conjunction with some grand scheme is also an age old trick. God said to do this on page...... see, it says right here....what? oh, that's just how they spoke back then. no, really, god said unto jerry, strap that bomb on your chest and blow yourself up....no, they didn't have bombs back then but they didn't have cars either and yet god is telling you to blow yourself to bits in front of the quickie mart which, by the way, did exist back then. jesus worked the slushee machine on weekends, not on the sabbath tho. that would have been wrong



Got picture in my mind of 72 farmers stood around in paradise scratching their heads and saying "any of those sumbitches comes near me gets a pitchfork up his ass"

As for the rest?
Spot on - nothing like a bit of power from above to corrupt.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 07:30 PM
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Yeah and what about my 'e' and my porn and sex slaves. How about crap on the TV and unions and cheap fat food. Then we got cheap credit and politicians that are puppets.

Everybody has their 'stuff' they get high on it seems. But a lot of the religious texts are not interpreted correctly that is for sure. I'm hoping that a lot that is written in the Torah is wrong too.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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Why anyone would want 72 Virgins is beyond me..

I'd rather have few women that knew what they were doing, than 72 who needed to be taught....



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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It's just another sad example of people wanting to believe in something, and being sold a pig in a poke by people manipulating them for their own ends. It just goes to show, some people will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous, and upon absolutely no evidence.

It's this sort of abuse of believers that has led to HIV+ men in Africa raping virgins, even as young as a year old or less -- all because some witch doctor said it would cure them.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 12:52 AM
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Ok sorry to any woman who might read this, but it still is true for you gals too.....................Who in the hell wants to spend forever with 72 girls that dont know what to do in the sack. Give me 72 hard core biker chicks any day over 72 virgins.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 06:08 AM
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I think this is more about how some people will twist the words/text of their religion for personal/political gain, than about the pro's and cons of virgins.

Some believe that in islamic paradise or heaven, they will be able to indulge all the "guilty" pleasures denied them in their earthly existence.

There's nothing new about it - people from ALL religions have been making promises based on opinion for centuries, if not millenia.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
Why anyone would want 72 Virgins is beyond me..

I'd rather have few women that knew what they were doing, than 72 who needed to be taught....


LOL

Yea you are right

I would personally be more happy if it was actual love with just one woman/girl though lol.. No need to have 72 lol..
I think having to satisfy 72 woman all at once every night would be a 'hell' of a
job for 'junior' down there LOL



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:19 AM
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Is this any different than Catholics saying that killing Muslims is not the same as murder because they're damned anyway?

(Crusades)



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Is this any different than Catholics saying that killing Muslims is not the same as murder because they're damned anyway?

(Crusades)


Only insofar as the crusaders weren't promised various "gifts" when they got to heaven - although if I remember rightly, they were told that there was a place in heaven reserved for them for fighting "gods enemies".



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:44 AM
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I'm a bit confused on the whole 72 virgin thing........

Do they get 72 Virgins, then as they use one, she dissappears and another one replaces her or......

Do they have 72 Virgins, then after gettin buzy with them all have 72 wives with 72 kids, you'd have to work 24 / 7 to feed all them mouths, that don't sound like heaven to me.


Peace..



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:47 AM
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It certainly doesn't sound much like heaven for the virgins, either.

Yet another example of women not being seen as people, but as property and as props for a heavenly existence.

If I was one of the virgins, I think I'd have to lead a revolt.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:53 AM
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Logistically it just doesn't work out, unless 72 virgins are killed every time a martyr dies.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Is this any different than Catholics saying that killing Muslims is not the same as murder because they're damned anyway?

(Crusades)


First of all, not only Christians were involved in the crusades but, wait for it, so were MUSLIMS!!!

By the way, your comment was way off topic, this has nothing to do with Catholics or the Crusades.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:01 AM
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Chill out SoT

I was pointing out that the major Abrahamic religions have more in common than they'd readily admit. Especially when it comes to control and manipulation.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by Rock Ape
I'm a bit confused on the whole 72 virgin thing........

Do they get 72 Virgins, then as they use one, she dissappears and another one replaces her or......

Do they have 72 Virgins, then after gettin buzy with them all have 72 wives with 72 kids, you'd have to work 24 / 7 to feed all them mouths, that don't sound like heaven to me.


Peace..



well, that's the whole point - according to the Koran - they don't get ANY

Geez people - read the OP before commenting!



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420

I was pointing out that the major Abrahamic religions have more in common than they'd readily admit. Especially when it comes to control and manipulation.


With that I agree... I just get tired of people talking about Catholics like they are the freaking spawn of Satan or something. It is out of control on this board.



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