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Activist Group Considers 'Red-Light Cam' Lawsuits

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posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Activist Group Considers 'Red-Light Cam' Lawsuits


www.local6.com

An activist group is considering filing a lawsuit against the cities of Orlando, Apopka and even Orange County over red-light cameras on roads.

The Florida Civil Rights Association said red-light cameras that photograph and ticket drivers who ignore the signals are unconstitutional.
(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.ohio.com
www.myfoxwghp.com




posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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The argument used might seem to be novel, yet it kind of makes one wonder if in the future others will challenge the use of cameras or other mechanical devices as evidence in any crime since all are machines which cannot answer questions.

www.local6.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:48 AM
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There is a growing push by Local and State Governments to have traffic violations and DUIs removed from the list of things that you can request a trial for. This would nullify this group's arguement about not being able to confront your accuser. Remember many States have the view that driving is a privledge granted to you by the State and can be revoked by the State at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

It is nice to see a REAL Government conspiracy on ATS for once.


Take a look at the National Motorist Association website for information on this subject.
NMA



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:50 AM
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This is a bit confusing.

We have lots of red light cams where I live (nyc) and yes, I myself have received a ticket from one. Why? Um... because I went through a red light on the West Side Highway.

The photographs mailed along with the ticket presented very clear images of my car going through the intersection while the light was red. So, I paid the fine. Of course there are no points given on your license due to the fact that it does not know who is driving. The ticket is like a parking ticket. Your vehicle was here, it wasn't supposed to be, now pay the fine.

What's the next complaint going to be? Security cameras at banks or convenience stores, which help bust thousands of criminals a year, will be declared unconstitutional or unacceptable evidence?



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Djarums
.What's the next complaint going to be? Security cameras at banks or convenience stores, which help bust thousands of criminals a year, will be declared unconstitutional or unacceptable evidence?


That is the very thing that enterd my mind and hence the reason I asked the same questinos. If they can challenge one machine and win, one would assume that would set a precident for any case involving a machine.


The group cites a recent Minnesota Supreme Court ruling that the cameras violate due process because car owners cannot confront their accuser in court since the accuser is a machine.
Source


As you can see from the source article one state supreme court has already ruled aginst them and several other states are in the process of ruling if they are violating our constitutional rights.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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The group cites a recent Minnesota Supreme Court ruling that the cameras violate due process because car owners cannot confront their accuser in court since the accuser is a machine.


I admit I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a judge, but I feel like I'm missing something here.

In the example cited earlier... what about a security camera that captures a suspect's face? What about the cameras that caught the murder of a policeman in NYC this past week leading to the arrest of the 3 perps? What about cameras catching police brutality at protests?

The suspect in each of these cases is "unable to confront their accuser in court" aren't they? However, in those cases the evidence is seen as irrefutable proof. Here is a picture of YOU holding a gun in the clerk's face. Here is a picture of YOU pistolwhipping him. A case like that is a gift for a DA.

Now what? Cases will only be able to be tried if there is a human eyewitness? I understand the concerns of "too many cameras" but this is a very dangerous road.

We're talking about dismissing evidence that could convict, or exonerate people of very serious crimes.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:29 PM
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DO NOT GET A DRIVERS LICENSE AND GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS...

The state can do whatever it wants in its contracts, however it can not violate the State Constitution when there is no Contract by the people giving up their Rights.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled long ago that a traffic citation must be issued by a Police Officer ina Police Officer uniform, any ticket mailed from a camera shot is already Illegal and most people know this and don't pay them. The states continue this process because 50% of the people still pay the tickets. There is nothing illegal with sending you a ticket in the mail and you paying it if you choose too. So choose NOT TO, or better yet send them a picture of the fine money. My father in law thought I was kidding til he did it, sent a picture of 40 dollars to them...

I o not have a drivers License and I will not take one, I prefer to use the roads as part of my American Rights, and I prefer not to give up those Rights for police Jurisdiction and other Rules.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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I hear yeah Djarums and agree with all of your arguments as I too see them as you do. However it would appear this group wants to use their logic to get around the use of machines. Perhaps some day even challenge Breathalyzer test results in DUI cases. The later comment about the breathalizer is just my own opinion not thiers but it would seem to fit since they appeaar to want to challenge machines

No doubt states are going to challenge the state supreme court rulings and go onto SCOTUS where they will make the final verdict.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Djarums
Of course there are no points given on your license due to the fact that it does not know who is driving. The ticket is like a parking ticket. Your vehicle was here, it wasn't supposed to be, now pay the fine.

What's the next complaint going to be? Security cameras at banks or convenience stores, which help bust thousands of criminals a year, will be declared unconstitutional or unacceptable evidence?


There are no points put on your license because then the municipality that issued you the ticket would then have to split the proceeds from that ticket with the State. My main arguement with the red light cameras is the possibility of abuse. These cameras are installed and operated by an independant company, who gets a portion of each fine that is issued. There have been documentated cases where the amount of time that the yellow caution light is on has been reduced because the projected revenues used to sell the public on these cameras, wasn't being met. The link to the NMA's site in my previous post links to the reports on this.

Last year I was travelling in Ohio and a few weeks later I get a speeding ticket that was taken by a roadside camera. In this picture was my vehicle plus four others. I decided not to pay the fine and went back for the magistrate's hearing. While I was sitting in the waiting room I found out that the driver's of three of the other four cars were there for their hearings too. The company who operated the cameras had sent a ticket to every vehicle in the picture that they could get a license number for, even though their camera could only track one vehicle at a time. We had a discussion and agreed that who ever went first for their hearing, the rest of us would go along as "witnesses". It took about 15 minutes to get all four of our citations dismissed. I have to wonder how many times that this had happened in the past and the people involved just paid the citation and never looked into it?



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
The company who operated the cameras had sent a ticket to every vehicle in the picture that they could get a license number for, even though their camera could only track one vehicle at a time.


The above confuses me to a point. Are you saying the camera companies are the ones who send out the tickets and not the police? That alone would seem to be unconstitutional since they are not police.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by shots
The above confuses me to a point. Are you saying the camera companies are the ones who send out the tickets and not the police? That alone would seem to be unconstitutional since they are not police.


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. The companies are under contract to the municipality to operate the cameras and to print and mail the tickets. In the case of my so called "speeding ticket", I recieved a copy of the picture from the camera and a citation stating that I could either mail a check for $254.40 and the citation, with the Guilty box checked and my signature or I could appear at the Magistrate's office on a certain date and time.

One more thing. Most traffic violations are not criminal acts, they are violations of the State's Motor Vehicle Code. When you obtain a driver's license you enter into a contract between you and the State that you will follow the Code. When you enter into this contract you also agree to waive some of your rights. This is the loophole that allows DUI checkpoints and the suspension of your license for refusing to take a breathalyser test.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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While trying to research this story more and find out all there is to know, I came accross more then one site who claim their devices will twart the cameras. You can view one of them here with two videos as well as other products.

Now I wonder if some states have banned these products like the did with radar detectors



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 05:27 PM
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Yeah products have been around to defeat the cameras since the cameras first came out.

Films that go over your plate, sprays, plastic panels. The goal of all of them is the same, when the flash hits the plate it reflects the entire flash back into the camera causing the surface of the plate to appear like a white glow, and certainly making the numbers unreadable.

The laws governing such things vary state to state.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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Didn't they have an episode MythBusters that said they didn't work?

I don't know if that is correct or not though....why would they go tell people how to cheat cameras on TV.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by enjoies05
Didn't they have an episode MythBusters that said they didn't work?

why would they go tell people how to cheat cameras on TV.


If they did carry one I assume as normal they used their own methods rather then the actual product so their results could vary from the ones sold on TV.

As to why they would tell peple on TV about it one could assume just like we do here to let others know what is going on in the world.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by JIMC5499
Remember many States have the view that driving is a privledge granted to you by the State and can be revoked by the State at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

Which is not true, as long as it's a privately owned vehicle being used for personal purposes...But driving a vehicle as part of your employment to another will still require licensing. Reading the laws (& the discussions of the laws), as found here & here, raises a question?

If the States can't even enforce the issuing of "private class" licensing, can they expect to successfully barter the idea of dropping those specific traffic violations in order to "go around" the Amendment that those cameras violate in the first place? It seems to me that people should challenge the States concerning licensing as well as getting the States to "unprogram" the machines to issue citations by themselves.


Originally posted by Djarums
Now what? Cases will only be able to be tried if there is a human eyewitness?

Or, if the camera does record the incident & then sets an alarm for a human police officer to view the camera's evidence before any citations are issued, perhaps.



Originally posted by shots
Perhaps some day even challenge Breathalyzer test results in DUI cases. The later comment about the breathalizer is just my own opinion not thiers but it would seem to fit since they appeaar to want to challenge machines

Actually, if you've obtained a State-issued driver's license, you've already given up your Right to refuse "roadside DUI testing" by an Officer. Having that license just tells the Police that you've already contracted for your obligation to submit.

BTW, the two links I posted were originally posted by theindependantjournal, in another thread right over there...Credit where credit is due and all that.


[edit on 17-7-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by enjoies05
Didn't they have an episode MythBusters that said they didn't work?

I don't know if that is correct or not though....why would they go tell people how to cheat cameras on TV.


I believe that the episode you were referring to was concerning radar guns. It's near impossible to defeat those short of making a car that resembles an F-117. Defeating a camera though isn't all that hard apparently, I'm pretty sure that those films and such do indeed work.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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Hopefully I can clarify the reason why "camera-issued tickets" are technically unconstitutional, but why bank cameras are allowed as evidence.

It all comes down to the accuser and witness.

In order for there to be due process and a fair trial, one must be able to "face their accuser in court". As in, a living, breathing person who is actively accusing them of the crime.

A camera can provide evidence in support of the accusation but cannot actually go up on the witness stand, delivery testimony, and accuse the driver of having committed a crime. Even in cases where there are no witnesses to link the suspect to the crime, there must still be an accuser for the trial to take place (ie. the bank manager, a detective, the people vs., etc).

A traffic-cam is not an accuser, yet is being treated as if it were, circumventing the whole rules of due process. It cannot be held up to cross-examination, blah blah blah. It's an inanimate object.

Hope this helps clarify things.

What's going to get REAL sticky is when AI are sophisticated enough to actually testify in court and be a legitimate accuser.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 03:17 PM
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So let’s clarify this. I am most likely going to get one in the mail soon as all of my friends have. If I don’t pay they can’t do anything right. Also, if I would have to appear in court, would the judge make me pay even if I present the case and have evidence saying its unconstitutional? He or she would make some other case against me and use other legal mumbo jumbo and ultimately declare me guilty.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
Hopefully I can clarify the reason why "camera-issued tickets" are technically unconstitutional, but why bank cameras are allowed as evidence.

It all comes down to the accuser and witness.




Ok now tell us why a bank camera is accceptable and a red light camera not? Both are cameras are they not?



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