HAARP punching holes in clouds?

I came across this on the C2C site. Apparently an article is writing it off as cold temperatures, air traffic, and unusual atmospheric stability. Well, I don't think so. Take a look for yourself at these links:

Hole in clouds with chemtrails

Nasa images

And how exactly would HAARP make these holes? Ah, but of course, HAARP can do whatever people want it to. Even when it's not switched on. In fact, I'm sure HAARP just made me a cup of tea!

Originally posted by Essan
And how exactly would HAARP make these holes? Ah, but of course, HAARP can do whatever people want it to. Even when it's not switched on. In fact, I'm sure HAARP just made me a cup of tea!

Go online to youtube and do a search for HAARP radar. I'd like to see how you would explain that one. And if you don't know how HAARP could make those holes, perhaps you need to do some research on the subject. Anything that can heat up the atmosphere to 1,600 degrees using one billion watts of power (and yes, that's coming from the mouth of the HAARP media rep himself) can punch a hole in the clouds.

[edit on 7/16/2007 by pjslug]

One billion watts is PERFECT for making me some tea! But seriously, what purpose does making holes in a cloud is there? i Will have to say none for this very simple reason. Clouds dissipate on their own, there is not much of a reason to "punch holes" in them as your imagination might hope.

Essan, couldn't the holes in the cloud be caused by the ionosphere above that area being heated? Eastlund describes exactly this effect in the patent. Have you read the patent at all, or do you think that Eastlund was wrong in his belief that heating sections of the ionosphere would cause areas of the troposphere (where the clouds are, as I'm sure you know) to be raised? The sudden raising of a section of the atmosphere would surely affect the area directly below it, how do you know what effect this would have on clouds?

What do you think HAARP does? Simply what is stated on the website? Then why are the US military involved?

Originally posted by pjslugAnything that can heat up the atmosphere to 1,600 degrees using one billion watts of power (and yes, that's coming from the mouth of the HAARP media rep himself) can punch a hole in the clouds.

HAARP doesn't have a gigawatt of output power, it has a gigawatt ERP, which is something completely different.

Where did you get the 1600 degree number? That butt-awful "holes in heaven" video?

edit: Made myself watch it again up to that point. Ok, he's not talking about troposphere, he's talking about exciting little patches of ionosphere. That's not quite the same thing. The ionosphere is a plasma. It has a high temperature anyway, it's in the thermosphere. Temperature is not the same as heat though: the density of the ionosphere is very very low.

More, given that 1,600 degree (probably K) number he's probably talking about the plasma electron temperature. That sounds like a lot but the plasma electron temperature gets a lot higher than that under normal atmospheric processes. It's pretty common for ionospheric plasma electron temperatures to idle about 1600K average during the daylight hours. Even the plasma ion temps can go over 1600K during thunderstorms. That's with no abnormal external inputs, if you have a CME, flare or gamma ray burster the temps go nuts.

It would help if he hadn't dumbed it down for the "documentary".

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by Karilla
Essan, couldn't the holes in the cloud be caused by the ionosphere above that area being heated? Eastlund describes exactly this effect in the patent.

No. Otherwsie, everytime there's an upsurge in solar activity all the clouds would disappear

Besides, how can HAARP pinpoint one tiny place on the other side of the planet? Or rather, hundreds of different spots all over the planet every single day of the year? These fallstreak holes may be rare, but they're not that rare.

Have you read the patent at all, or do you think that Eastlund was wrong in his belief that heating sections of the ionosphere would cause areas of the troposphere (where the clouds are, as I'm sure you know) to be raised?

I have a copy of the patent but must admit I've never read it in detail. But I think that what he wrote has been misinterpreted. Besides which, holding a patent for an idea or process doesn't necessarily mean it works

The sudden raising of a section of the atmosphere would surely affect the area directly below it, how do you know what effect this would have on clouds?

But there is no physical 'raising of the atmosphere'. Nothing actually moves. There is no change in pressure. And if the ionosphere had such an immediate effect on weather in any way, we'd see these changes occur every single day - as the extent of the ionosphere changes through the day (at midnight in winter it virtually disappears altogether)

What do you think HAARP does? Simply what is stated on the website? Then why are the US military involved?

I think HAARP is probably used to test ways of improving and disrupting radio communication by manipulating the ionosphere - which obviously has significant military implications.

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Essan]

Just checking, are you saying that the sun has no effect on the weather? Just because I thought that heating caused air it to rise, creating low pressure. I have a barometer and live on a boat, so It would be useful to know for sure. To say that very localised heating would have the same effect as the sun covering an entire hemisphere of the earth seems wrong to me.

If you actually read the patent it contradicts your above statement that ionospheric heating can cause the affected to rise. I take the inventor of HAARP's word over yours any day. You should also read the section that talks about being able to affect ANY area on the planet, which is also covered by the same magnetic field lines. According to Eastlund, siting the facility in Alaska would enable most of the world to be within reach.

Why do you make such authoratative seeming comments regarding HAARP when you have not even done the minimum of research? There was no hint of a reference in your post to your comments being uneducated speculation and baseless opinion. Hardly the denial of ignorance, more an admission of such, if you ask me.

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Karilla]

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Karilla]

You should also read the section that talks about being able to affect ANY area on the planet, which is also covered by the same magnetic field lines. According to Eastlund, siting the facility in Alaska would enable most of the world to be within reach.

HAARP can't put out anywhere near the power density that Eastlund cites in his patent.

While HAARP is superficially similar to the Eastlund patent there are a lot of differences.

But Begich doesn't say that, does he?

Sorry, who is Begich? I also am unaware of the power requirements to carry out Eastlund's stated aims, but then so are you, or have you actually done these things, Tom?

What about Poker Flats and the alternate site that is said to exist there? Are you part of the US military establishment that you know for sure nothing goes on except that which is related on the HAARP website?

Edit to add: Here's a link to Dan Eden's (not his real name, although he does reveal his name toward the end of the piece) account of his experience at Poker Flats. You can follw his directions on Google Earth and find the site exactly where he said it was. Please read the whole article before responding, and given the serious nature of his claims I would suggest that a flat rebuttal without proof won't cut any ice with me personally. www.viewzone.com...

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Karilla]

Originally posted by Karilla
Sorry, who is Begich? I also am unaware of the power requirements to carry out Eastlund's stated aims, but then so are you, or have you actually done these things, Tom?

To do the things you see in Eastlund's patent, you'd need a power density on target of around 0.5 to 1.0 W/cm2. HAARP isn't anywhere NEAR that. Not by several orders of magnitude. And that's after the upgrade. Eastlund will tell you that, too.

What about Poker Flats and the alternate site that is said to exist there?

If you take a few minutes to look at other posts I've made on the subject, I don't disagree that there are other sites with ionospheric heaters. Hell, Arecibo is one. There is at least one in Antarctica. There is at least one other site that is, I'm given to believe, much more optimized to make radar mirrors at the expense of flexibility.

I wouldn't speculate on anything which may be at Poker Flat. There's an auroral rocket launching site I know about, and a moderately big radar setup, a Fabry-Perot spectrometer and a few other things.

Are you part of the US military establishment...

At times...

... that you know for sure nothing goes on except that which is related on the HAARP website?

Who said that except you? Actually they put more on the HAARP website than I would have thought. It's run by NRL and AFRL, what do you think? Yes, I know of a couple of projects you probably don't, I'm sure there are others. But most of what I just had the misfortune to read on "viewzone" is junk.

Edit to add: Here's a link to Dan Eden's (not his real name, although he does reveal his name toward the end of the piece) account of his experience at Poker Flats. You can follw his directions on Google Earth and find the site exactly where he said it was. Please read the whole article before responding, and given the serious nature of his claims I would suggest that a flat rebuttal without proof won't cut any ice with me personally.

Yeah, I read it. There's a lot of crap there, as I figured there would be. It's a work of fiction, but the problem is, it's a lengthy one. I want my hour of life back.

You have to give him that, he put a lot of work into it.

Do you have the coordinates of whatever you found in Google Earth? It's probably going to end up being PFRR.

So , to recap, HAARP does the following:

control your mind,

Punch holes in clouds,

Control the weather,

Communicate with alien species,

Kill people by boiling their blood anywhere on the planet,

Can bring down airplanes,

Give the military a tool to replace the electromagnetic pulse effect of atmospheric thermonuclear devices,

Replace the huge Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) submarine communication system operating in Michigan and Wisconsin with a new and more compact technology,

Provide a way to wipe out communications over an extremely large area, while keeping the militaries own communications systems working,

Be a tool for geophysical probing to find oil, gas and mineral deposits over a large area.



Did I miss anything?

Originally posted by Tiloke

Replace the huge Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) submarine communication system operating in Michigan and Wisconsin with a new and more compact technology,

Provide a way to wipe out communications over an extremely large area, while keeping the militaries own communications systems working,

Actually, those two are true.

Be a tool for geophysical probing to find oil, gas and mineral deposits over a large area.

I have heard this one discussed more in the context of looking for voids (i.e. bunkers) but I don't know if it's true.

Did I miss anything?

In 2005 they declassified the function of bleeding high energy electrons out of the inner magnetosphere, so you have that going for you too.

To do the things you see in Eastlund's patent, you'd need a power density on target of around 0.5 to 1.0 W/cm2. HAARP isn't anywhere NEAR that. Not by several orders of magnitude. And that's after the upgrade. Eastlund will tell you that, too.

So let me hear this right. They don't have the power now. Well wouldn't NOW be a good time for we the people to SHUT THEM DOWN?? By the time they do blast 1 billion watts of ELF radiation into our ionosphere, it's too late. That one little hole, at the very least, will allow Solar Radiation down at it's full force potentially giving 10s of thousands of men and women skincancer.
HAARP needs to be taken APART

Originally posted by Karilla
Just checking, are you saying that the sun has no effect on the weather?

I said nothing of the sort. I just pointed out that increased solar activity - resulting in a 'heating up' of the ionosphere - does not makes clouds disappear. There is speculation that sunspot activity may have a medium to long range impact on weather patterns but this idea is generally dismissed by most meteorologists and so far as I know no detailed studies have been carried out to verify (or otherwise) the theory.

Just because I thought that heating caused air it to rise, creating low pressure. I have a barometer and live on a boat, so It would be useful to know for sure. To say that very localised heating would have the same effect as the sun covering an entire hemisphere of the earth seems wrong to me.

Heating of the ionosphere does not cause air many miles below to rise Heating of the surface does that. Eastlund's patent makes no mention of being able to make holes in clouds nor have any small scale effect on local weather. He merely speculates (incorrectly in my opinion) that

Weather modification is possible by, for
example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering
solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of
atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing
device.

Such weather modification might - if it worked - cause medium range change in weather patterns.

he also suggests that

large regions of the atmosphere could be lifted to an
unexpectedly high altitude so that missiles encounter unexpected
and unplanned drag forces

Again, I'm not sure whether this would work in practice, but there is no implication that this would have any effect on the lower atmosphere.

I take the inventor of HAARP's word over yours any day.

But the 'inventor of HAARP' does not appear to support your conjectures on what HAARP can do?

Note that the primary function of it - according to Eastlund's patent - is to cause communications disruption. Exactly the sort of thing that a heating of the ionosphere would be expected to do.

And of course, as previously mentioned, owning a patent doesn't actually mean that all ideas expressed in that patent work in real life

There was no hint of a reference in your post to your comments being uneducated speculation and baseless opinion. Hardly the denial of ignorance, more an admission of such, if you ask me.

I would humbly suggest that thinking HAARP creates fallstreak holes - and dismissing out of hand any meteorological explanation - is rather further into 'uneducated speculation' territory

Originally posted by Tiloke


Did I miss anything?

It makes very good a cup of tea

OK, make my slice of humble pie a small one, I've already had breakfast.

Tom - I have lost the screenshot I saved, but I started from Fairbanks, Alaska, followed the Elk river east and found the local AFB. The site in question appears to be about 5-10 miles WSW from there.

Can we play 20 questions regarding he bits you are'nt meant to talk about?

Essan - OK, yes, heating of the surface. I knew that (ahem). Is the ionosphere simply too thin to affect the denser layers beneath it? Oh, and as regards sunspot cycles and weather, did you know that Robert Fitzroy (Captain of the Beagle, amongst many, many other things) achieved a better than 50% accurate weather forecast, incorporating the 11 year solar cycle? Apparently the Met Office doesn't use this cycle as part of their modelling, otherwise their accuracy could be in the upper 90% range! (From the book This Thing Of Darkness by Somebody Thompson. I would be more specific but my brother nicked the book).

Originally posted by Karilla
Is the ionosphere simply too thin to affect the denser layers beneath it?

Yes, I think so.

There's a good description of the ionosphere on the official HAARP website

www.haarp.alaska.edu...

Also, the ionosphere itself varies in extend depending on the time of day and time of year. It's not a fixed region. It's simply the region of the outer atmosphere where ions are heated by the solar wind (so it's always strongest above the equator at midday and weakest above the poles at midnight)

In my experience, many of those people who promote ideas about HAARP and what it can do don't actually understand what the ionosphere is.

The impact of solar activity on weather is another matter - that's interesting to hear about Fitzroy using sunspot activity for his forecasting. I think most people accept that longer term cycles do have an impact - like the Maunder Minimum being responsible for a cold period in the 17th/18th century - and indeed there's an acceptance that increased solar activity is partly responsible for some of the global warming during the 20th century. I know some people who are convinced that sunspots lead to a more active Atlantic meaning stormier conditions for the UK, especially in winter - but such weather can have other causes and I guess it's a major project to determine over a period of time whether any direct connection can be observed. Until then, few professional meteorologists look likely to take much notice, although there are always a few 'mavericks' who think otherwise!


Edit: btw anyone who is willing to eat humble pie is a friend of mine

[edit on 17-7-2007 by Essan]

Originally posted by pjslug
So let me hear this right. They don't have the power now. Well wouldn't NOW be a good time for we the people to SHUT THEM DOWN??

The point being, it's not the device in the patent. It's sort of like building a laser pointer, and then some guy coming along and saying "MY GOD!! Don't you know that if you make that 10 million times more intense, it could destroy airplanes! We have to crush that right now!!!11!"

By the time they do blast 1 billion watts of ELF radiation into our ionosphere, it's too late. That one little hole, at the very least, will allow Solar Radiation down at it's full force potentially giving 10s of thousands of men and women skincancer.
HAARP needs to be taken APART

HAARP doesn't transmit ELF. It's a HF rig. And it's a billion Watts ERP, not a billion Watts output. The actual power output is more like 3.6 MW.

Originally posted by Karilla
OK, make my slice of humble pie a small one, I've already had breakfast.

Tom - I have lost the screenshot I saved, but I started from Fairbanks, Alaska, followed the Elk river east and found the local AFB. The site in question appears to be about 5-10 miles WSW from there.

I just have to look. I don't get up there much. I am betting it's the PFRR, but it will be interesting to see. There are also some long range radars in Alaska for spotting polar-orbit reentry vehicles.

I read your guy's site, at least until I just got too tired, that was somewhere around the point where he hits some 'proto-Canaanite runes' which somehow proves his point, about there I started thinking it wasn't worth proceeding. I don't know - something great might have come after that but up to then what it reads like is he got a copy of Begich's "Angels don't play this HAARP", wrote a bad movie script based on it, was rejected, and turned the plot into a website. Frankly, it doesn't enhance my impression of his perceptions with the every page "so we sat down and smoked five bowls for Duane Allman" references. I think I know where he gets some of his more dramatic material.

It's a target rich environment. Tuesday is my act-like-a-grad-student-day wherein I have to proof read masters' theses, clean up and what not. So here in a few minutes I'm gone the rest of the day. However, when I can spend a minute on it I'll point out a few of his more blatant mistakes. Maybe I can get to it tonight. There's both technical and procedural errors - very basic ones, and lots of them.

If you get a chance today, you ought to either ask some of the old timers here or go look for yourself. The questions for today are -

What are the functions of each of the 15 organizations that comprise "the US intelligence community"?

What are their scopes of operation? Each organization has a mission, or set of related missions. While there are facets of those missions that aren't discussed, you don't see 'NRO agents' planting bugs in Venezuelan governmental offices, for example.

You'll see what I mean, first point up on the cutting board is going to be his repeated error related to this. He seems to be getting his info from movies.

Here's the 'admitted to' list o' the 15 in no particular order:
Army Intel
Air Force Intel (AIA/AFOSI)
Navy Intel (ONI)
Marine Corps Intel
DIA
FBI
NRO
DOE
Dept of the Treasury (OIS)
State Dept (and in oh, so many more ways than INR, trust me)
Coast Guard
DHS
CIA
NGA
NSA

In addition there's a couple of non-discussed ones, one biggie is out of the JCS/SecDef's offices. But they don't really count here.

Ok. This is certainly not the only time he does this, and it's not the only mistake by far, but it's one that always catches my eye.

When I identified myself they asked if I would please step outside the office where they flashed NSA (National Security Agency) credentials. I was subsequently invited for coffee at the Westover Air Force Base in nearby Chicopee.

www.viewzone.com...

Now, this is part of the tale in conjunction with finding out the secret of Poker Flat. He's been told this story by two ex-Navy guys at the supposed secret Navy base there. So, some time later, these NSA guys show up and take him to Westover, interrogate him for hours and what not.

Now, I'm pretty sure it's not the only time he invokes NSA guys, I haven't taken the time to scour through the story again this evening. But here's the issue. The Navy guys that supposedly breached were Navy, and their security clearances and any NDAs would have been Navy.

NSA doesn't have squat to do with breaches of national security, despite the name. NSA has two missions - SIGINT, and Information Assurance, which is another name for crypto. IA develops, for instance, crypto parts and algorithms that go into military comm gear, and they spend lots of time breaking other people's crypto. If you used a SINCGARS, for example, the SAVILLE algorithm that's in the radio came right from IA.

The SIGINT guys are the ones that listen to your cell phones and internet traffic, and run the Echelon system. They buy lots of DSP boards and high speed numeric processors, and when you see stories in the news about the latest quantum this or that with a few teraflops of performance, like as not it's the SIGINT guys that want it. They are the world's foremost consumer of DSP, vector and array processors, and supercomputers. Or at least they still were last time I looked.

Now, if you leave IA's little binary files with the SAVILLE algorithm lying around in the open, an NSA guy with a badge will come a'callin and knock you on the head with a rubber hammer. They are very antsy about that sort of thing.

But for the most part, to work at NSA you don't need to be Jack Bauer, you need to be a mathematician, a physicist, a cryptographer or what not. They hire LOTS of EE's. They also like linguists and CS majors; if you're good with reading political news and picking out patterns they like that too. But there's not any openings for NSA headknockers to amount to anything, because it's not their mission. They have a Ft Meade NSA police force, but that's about it.

Now in the movies, you see a lot of stuff like Enemy of the State where they run around with minivans watching from satellites with physically impossible resolutions in real time, and they're all murderous villains. In reality, the ones I've seen drink Jolt, eat Cheetos and are pasty faced and overweight from too many hours at work, living on snack machine food and working under fluorescent lights.

What doesn't happen in real life, is that you have "NSA agents" who run around enforcing NDAs. If you see anyone claiming "NSA agents" do this, it's a red flag. He didn't mistakenly type that either, he says NSA card, NSA ID, NSA this that and the other. NSA not only doesn't have headknockers, they don't even surveill US citizens unless it's under really oddball circumstances. There are some NSA field agents that collect SIGINT in the field, there's a few IA guys that come drop off your crypto if you're into designing encrypted comms for the gubmint but no Jack Bauer/Sgt Joe Friday types. That's not their mission, it's not their profile, it's not in their charter, they can't do it.

Seriously, if you see someone saying they were NSA and in the course of their job they assassinated someone or whatnot, you can immediately adjust your perception of their truthfulness. Not that there aren't people that do this, there are, just not the NSA. It would be like someone from NGA or NRO coming over. "Hands up, we're with the NGA!!" Nuh-uh.

Anyway, if you were active Navy, what would happen is that the ONI guys would come pay you a visit, or if you were on base the Navy MPs would show up and take you into custody. Retired Navy, you still signed that agreement with the Navy. What would happen to ME on the Army side of things is I'd be arrested by Army Intel in conjunction with the FBI. I'd expect the Navy solution would be similar - a tag team ONI/FBI would pick you up. The FBI has law enforcement jurisdiction. They can have local law enforcement nab you as well and hold you for delivery. They can also use US Marshals to do it. In a pinch I'm pretty sure the military police could come to your house and grab you, although it's my understanding they probably wouldn't. But what you would NOT see would be CIA (unless you absconded to another country) or NSA. You'd be held in a federal detention facility and prosecuted in the federal court system. Active military would be court martialed.

I'd also give you a small percentage chance that DIA might catch you having violated an NDA with a military service IF they got intel that a military system had been compromised, and had sufficient info to link it to you. But in the end, the punch line is that they'd get in contact with the Navy and turn you in, and you'd still see the FBI a-knockin'.

The fact that this guy creams over the secret NSA police force that's enforcing his informants' Navy NDAs tells you a lot about the rest of the story.