Where do aborted fetuses REALLY go?

Forgive me for sounding harsh, but when people give the statement that it's not alive because it's not developed, I cannot help to think back to the 30's and 40's when the Nazis told all Jews, Gypsies, and the rest that they didn't deserve life because they were not consider a developed or equal enough race to Germany. Sorry, but its human, and that's that . You don't go kill something because you feel its not alive due to its not developed enough just like you don't go shoot Jews because you feel they are not developed enough to be "human". Since when did this become the norm. The only thing it will help is:
A) The lack of respect for life will make a revolution easier against the NWO
B) The lack of respect to life will make it easy for terrorists to justify their means by killing innocent people.

gorman--
a little off topic, but so am i
i guess,
but good words, all meaningful
you won't garner a response from the opposition
until it is too extreme to be posted here, belive me
thanks for helping to reveal the truth

Originally posted by cesar1981
gorman--
a little off topic, but so am i
i guess,
but good words, all meaningful
you won't garner a response from the opposition
until it is too extreme to be posted here, belive me
thanks for helping to reveal the truth

Yea alright, I'm off topic and I'll stop. But anywho, seeing as how this has been answered, I guess locking it would be appropriate.

So, I guess this topic has evolved somewhat since I last posted. Just to make a few points on the current debate...

From the moment of conception and possibly before that there is a strong argument that could be made that the fertilized cell is in fact a living organism. All living things have to meet certain criteria in order to be classified as such, namely (these are just a few of those criteria):

1. Reproduction by cellular division
2. The ability to metabolize raw materials and convert them into energy
3. Ability to respond to external and internal stimuli
4. The ability to change and respond to any given environment
5. Need to have a lifecycle
6. Be able to use energy and the ability to obtain it on their own (see no. 2)

If the above is not clear then simply remember that these criteria must be filled (in laymans terms) by the following:

1. Homeostasis
2. Organization
3. Metabolism
4. Growth
5. Adaptation
6. Response to stimuli
7. Reproduction

Although I don't prefer Wikipedia as a general reference source, it does a fairly good job at describing the criteria to meet a definition of Life as stated above: Definition of Life

A Zygote, which is determined to be the direct result of a fertilized cell contains two Haploid cells; an egg cell or "ovum", and a sperm cell. These two cells combine to form at Diploid cell, which is key to it's ability to undergo mitotic cellular division that fulfills one of the above criteria. The combination of these two cells form an embryo, which is classified as a multicellular diploid eukaryotic cell in the early stages of development. The key issue with this is whether or not individual egg and sperm cells can be called "living" or not. As described above the individual cells of sperm and egg do not meet all the criteria to be categorized as such because they are unable to reproduce and/or change by themselves, and unable to metabolize substances for energy. However, by the time the Embryo has developed it is somewhat able to fill most of the criteria listed above, and can therefore be classified as a living organism. Living organisms do not necessarily have to have a brain, or even fully developed organelles in order to be classified as such, and there are some examples of Unicellular organisms that are able to fulfill all the requirements needed such as bacteria, algae, and fungi. I won't go through every example of this because the post would run on into infinity, but if anyone needs further examples or explanation please ask.

So, the debate really ends up on the religious side of the argument, that is, whether or not a Zygote or Embryo has a "soul". Since humans are currently incapable of proving or disproving that a soul even exists (outside of religious texts) then the point becomes mute. We as humans, kill off lifeforms all the time...we kill plants if we eat or uproot them, we kill bacteria with medication, we kill animals for food, etc. etc....the point is that one must kill some other form of life to survive. Is killing an organism inside a woman to be considered anymore of a crime than killing all the other organisms that we are currently capable of killing? I guess it depends on whether or not you believe in a "soul", which is currently not based on any scientific observations or reasoning, but rather lies in the realm of speculation.

I personally go with the idea that speculation leads to ignorance, and ignorance often leads to remarkably inconclusive results. Scientific reasoning on the other hand, if done correctly and with no bias from the observer, can prove or disprove a Hypothesis or Theory. Whether the topic revolves around UFO's, Bigfoot, or the "soul" of an aborted fetus in this case, I believe science is the only one to trust for results. The existance of all three of the aforementioned topics are based around very little scientific evidence that we are able to draw conclusions from, but are based almost solely on speculation.

[edit on 19-7-2007 by Jazzerman]

Hey, I got an account "Clearskies", but I can't get my password at my alternate gmail address. I can't post too much till I get it

holy frig this thread makes me feel ill.


cheese louise!

GeneralT's wife, Glad you got an account.

fattyp, Yeah, there was a warning in the first post.

As far as a fetus being a living thing, yeah, it's alive. Yeah, it's human. But it's not a person. It's not a baby. That's like calling a seed a tree.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
GeneralT's wife, Glad you got an account.

fattyp, Yeah, there was a warning in the first post.

As far as a fetus being a living thing, yeah, it's alive. Yeah, it's human. But it's not a person. It's not a baby. That's like calling a seed a tree.

A seed IS a tree. Its just not growing leaves. That's like saying a mutant or premature baby isn't a baby because it didn't develop enough. What's the difference? Is a mountain of dead Jews not human because the Germans thought they were not? It doesn't matter what you think. If it lives then it has a soul. If you don't believe in the soul then it's alive all the same.

[edit on 19-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Someone's got to close this thread or rename it as it has gone WAY off topic

[edit on 19-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by GeneralT.
I didn't know I was violating any rules. Before now all the discussions I've had were not important to gender. What am I supposed to do if my husband has an account and I become interested in a topic? Keep my mouth shut like some neandrethals would like? I started out helping my husband with spelling and grammar. He wrote his profile, along with "My bigfoot story" and many others. I don't believe in split personalities, etc....Neither I nor my husband is gay. Me being an hipocrite is far-fetched because I didn't have anyone to help me make the right decision when I needed it, even though I asked. People, including some family said that I didn't need to raise the baby on welfare, so I should end it , and when I did, they just looked down thier noses at me! There's no shame in living on welfare until you get on your feet. I never thought that the God of the Bible was real until I realized how depraved men and women are. I was a stout feminist, believing in human effort and chance, but Jesus forgave me!!! I try to help others the way so many never reached out a hand to me. What to do about my own account?

thefatlady replies:


Oh, I hope you didn't think I was reffering to you when I used that term. My comment was directed to benevolentheretic and the grody pizza poster's comments. Don't worry about what other people think. They're full of hot air. Nobody has a right to criticize your decision, they weren't there to help. They don't understand the desperation involved. That's why I want it illegal, because I don't think it's a choice. I think most women are acting under the worst kind of duress even if it's only their circumstances forcing them and not some sick perpetrator .

Originally posted by coven

Originally posted by GeneralT.
I try to help others the way so many never reached out a hand to me. What to do about my own account?

still doubting your story... but anywho


those little buttons at the top... At the far right is the log out button. hit it... the hit create account... simply put it is still a T & C violation as you are using someone elses account, but i have a strong feeling by the constant lack of paragraph formatting, slight grammatical errors, and the simple fact you talk about jesus forgiving you for being a feminist... still not convinced...


sorry, doubt your going to change my mind.

thefatlady replies:

Don't twist what she said. She asked His forgiveness for her abortion, not for being a feminist. It's not PC in Christian circles to be one though, because our cause got clouded up with so many unrelated issues and we lost our moral compass that the movement started out with----which was granting men, women, and children dignity and fairness. Eliminating domestic violence and porn and the sex trade. Recognizing the value of mothering and homemaking as a proffession. Protecting children.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by thefatlady
Benevolent Heretic: .....

Probably the most unwarranted, uneducated, and most abusive rant I've read on ATS in a while. (not to mention hardest to read due to lack of proper punctuation, sentence and paragraph structure).

Thefatlady, you may have specific religious views, but just because someone doesn't subscribe to your exact view doesn't give you the right to call them stupid or fat (I'm not sure where that one came from BTW).

Aside from that, if you could back up any of your claims with evidence, maybe I would take you seriously. Until then, you're just someone who rants about topics in which they seem extremely uneducated.


MOVING ON!!

thefatlady replies:


I said he WASN'T a blob of tissue, neither is a fetus, and that if he ignores the law of gravity and jumps off the roof of my apt building , he's stupid. Reality doesn't go away just because you wish it. Nor does it go away because of my poor punctuation. And, by the way, 160-180lbs is not fat for most men !

Benevolent heretic: much apologies, thought you were male, am very new to all this. Will need to read more carefully before I reply!.

Jazzerman

I realize this is maddeningly subjective, but we have multitudes of extremely bright children describing events in the womb they could have had no other knowledge of, events that can be well cooroborated by the adults who were present, including the exact words spoken and circumstances surrounding conception at times. I don't believe in reincarnation, but have talked with too many persons who seem to recall even a few moments before conception. More maddeningly subjective, I knew most times the exact moment I got pregnant and find a lot of women describe that, though most are afraid to talk about it. I don't think it's paranormal, I think it's just a matter of being tuned in to it: more attentive. I also felt the life go out the exact moment my unborn baby died, even very early in preg when I miscarried. In fertility clinics when sperm meets egg, there's a flash of light no one can explain. I put it to you babies have conciousness right from the begining, AND that the argument that killing a fetus to survive is anything like the other killing we do to survive is specious. Very very few abortions are done to save the life of the mother, a tiny percentage. The argument is irrelevant. In any case, we have the technology now to save the baby and the mom in virtually all those cases. The only reservation I have about making it more widely available is the prospect of high tech kidnapping and the courts depriving parents of their children before they're even born. We live in a cruel culture. What makes the infant any more or less a human being based on a few minutes and a shift of about 12-15 inches in location? They cry in utero. They suck their thumbs in utero. They practice breathing in utero. They drink and pee in utero. They yawn. They respond to light. They respond to pain. They respond to sounds in utero. They drink more of the amniotic fluid if a sweetener is put in it. It's a baby. It's ahuman being. Period. The law of gravity is immutable. It's not going away. The truth is immutable. It's not going away.

Benevolent heretic:

One last thought I'd like to leave you with, I said that YOUR life is sacred!!!
It was sacred IN your mom, and is sacred NOW.

Originally posted by thefatlady
the argument that killing a fetus to survive is anything like the other killing we do to survive is specious. Very very few abortions are done to save the life of the mother, a tiny percentage. The argument is irrelevant.

Jesus! I can't believe the arrogance (not to mention ignorance) in that statement. Bill O'Reilly didn't get away with it, either.

Risk of Ectopic Pregnancy

Approximately 100,000 ectopic pregnancies occur each year
...
Ectopic pregnancies are the leading cause of pregnancy-related deaths in the first trimester and account for 9% of all pregnancy-related deaths in this country.

Pre-Eclampsia

New work shows how the developing placenta may cause the potentially fatal condition pre-eclampsia to develop through attempts to take over the mother’s metabolism for the survival of the foetus.

Pre-eclampsia can strike up to 10% (around 75,000) of pregnancies each year. ... It can lead to fits, and even the death of mother and baby.

In any case, we have the technology now to save the baby and the mom in virtually all those cases.

There is no way to save a baby of ectopic pregnancy.

Originally posted by thefatlady
Benevolent heretic: much apologies, thought you were male

No problem. You're not the first. And it's not like it's an insult. Men are cool.

Originally posted by thefatlady
One last thought I'd like to leave you with, I said that YOUR life is sacred!!!
It was sacred IN your mom, and is sacred NOW.

Well, ok. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But this is not about life being "sacred" whatever that means to you. It's about a woman's choice to treat her own body as she sees fit and NOT the government making that decision for her.

If you think life in the womb is "sacred", then don't have an abortion. But don't force your religious beliefs on other people. I know that's probably too much to ask...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you think life in the womb is "sacred", then don't have an abortion. But
don't force your religious beliefs on other people.
I know that's probably too much to ask...

Benevolent hit the nail on the head.

this thread should be closed because it was started for one reason only.

don't force your religious beliefs on other people.

nail on the HEAD...

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF A HIGHER POWER MOD's THIS THREAD HAS RUN ITS COURSE!!!!!!!

*Imagines he has the power*

lol, thread closed.

aborted fetuses are either incinerated, given to scientists for stem cell research, or are used in clinical trials to cure a variety of diseases. Some of which are turetts, ms, ect., ect. and by the way, im sorry you had to see that.

Very interesting topic,I am sure there is a lot more info out there,subscribed to thread.Reminds me of the movie "Soylent-Green"starring Charlton Heston @E Borgnine.

Originally posted by thefatlady
Benevolent heretic: much apologies, thought you were male, am very new to all this. Will need to read more carefully before I reply!.

Haha, That's why I thought you were calling BH fat. 160-180 may be normal for a dude, but for a woman it's usually a bit above average. Sorry, I thought you were going for a low blow there.

Jesus christ.. What a thread...
Well, to be completely realistic.
-Nobody eats babies, come on.
-The fetus's are incinerated/buried
-Pro-life, Pro-choice? Whatever, I'm a strong believer in the
"My P*ssy, my choice." motto. I just cant get the
image of an R2D2 filled with dead babies out of my
head... GAG