First Ever F-22 Raptor "Shot-Down"

The 57th Adversary Tactics Group undertook some interesting tactics not contained in the overall [scripted] intelligence scenario. These involved surprise threats, generally Red Air [enemy] fighters, entering the air battle unexpectedly. White Force [exercise control] staff would confirm that the threat was Red and Blue Air [the “good guys”] had to react. The tactic worked. An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 kill in Red Flag. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM: “At least half of the 94th FS crews had less than 50 hours in the F-22 and no matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake. The beauty of Red Flag is that we were able to go out and practice our tactics in a challenging scenario, make a mistake, learn a lesson, and be that much better prepared for actual combat.”

more @ warisboring.com...

Although this incident does not reflect on the Raptor's awesome capabilities, it just goes to show that nothing is invincible if there's a human factor involved.

p.s : The article also hoaxes the super hornet "kill" of the raptor that made rounds not very long ago.

[edit on 14/7/07 by Stealth Spy]

This is a great article for everyone here on ATS. It proves a point that I have been trying to push home over and over. While it is a great asset, stealth technology does not make an aircraft invincible. It is great to use as a force multiplier, but that doesn't mean everything needs to be stealth. It's the strategies and tactics that the pilots of stealth aircraft use that makes them so survivable.

The lessons from this exercise will improve the ability of F-22 pilots to survive in combat.

Tim

It's probably for the better that this happened. Every plane gets shot down eventually, and it's better that the F-22 get shot down in a simulated combat situation rather than a real one. At least this way the F-22 pilots can learn from the mistake and improve the survivability of the plane in actual combat.

As the pilot mentioned in article, this is why we have Red Flag. To practice, learn, and improve.

This is old news, the posting on that website is an update not a recent event.

Here is FredT's original thread covering the tropic... Notice The Date

And here is my post which put the Rhino "kill" BS to rest a long time ago.

(Note: The original link does not work but I still have the explanation in full for anyone who wants it)

Originally posted by Ghost01
While it is a great asset, stealth technology does not make an aircraft invincible.

No one has said that is does. Now, before you and others get carried away an explanation is in order...

The Raptor in question was shot down because it's pilot was unaware that a previously "downed" red pilot had "regenerated" (in the middle of the fight) and that he had placed himself within attacking position of the Raptor. The Raptor pilot thinking this aircraft was "out" ignored it and got shot down. In this way Red Flag is not realistic at all but it is a necessary way of simulation a constant and large force with few aggressor aircraft. In this case the F-22 pilot cant really learn anything other than to keep his SA up to date. Given that in a real fight downed enemy pilots will not magically come to life again and place themselves at a Raptor six this "kill" is a moot point. What this does prove however is that if you can get close enough to an F-22 while it's pilot purposely ignore you, then yes, you can down it just like any other jet.

Also, the article is biased against the F-22, in virtually all exercises it is the force flying against the F-22 who demands "controlled" scenarios. Such as forced visual ACM (see Hornet kill), simulated SAM's, updates of the F-22's position via GCI, "regeneration" etc...

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

The 57th Adversary Tactics Group undertook some interesting tactics not contained in the overall [scripted] intelligence scenario. These involved surprise threats, generally Red Air [enemy] fighters, entering the air battle unexpectedly. White Force [exercise control] staff would confirm that the threat was Red and Blue Air [the “good guys”] had to react. The tactic worked. An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 kill in Red Flag. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM: “At least half of the 94th FS crews had less than 50 hours in the F-22 and no matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake. The beauty of Red Flag is that we were able to go out and practice our tactics in a challenging scenario, make a mistake, learn a lesson, and be that much better prepared for actual combat.”

more @ warisboring.com...

Although this incident does not reflect on the Raptor's awesome capabilities, it just goes to show that nothing is invincible if there's a human factor involved.

p.s : The article also hoaxes the super hornet "kill" of the raptor that made rounds not very long ago.

[edit on 14/7/07 by Stealth Spy]

A while ago an F-18 with a newer APG-79 shot down a F-22

Originally posted by YASKY
A while ago an F-18 with a newer APG-79 shot down a F-22

Perhaps you should read the post(s) above you before commenting on a thread? Just a thought...

I think the Raptor went down only because the pilot lacked the aviation skills that the contender held.


Just better piloting skills if you ask me? I mean come on who really wins dogfights? The ones who hold the better tactic..















In my opinion I still think the Raptor is better btw hahahha.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
I think the Raptor went down only because the pilot lacked the aviation skills that the contender held.

Well, yes and no, sure experience helps but it can only do so much. Still, given that at the time of this Red Flag half the pilots of the 94th had less than 50 hours in the F-22 the results (which I posted on another thread) are astounding. I'm sure in this one instance the intimate knowledge of Red Flag rules and regulations regarding "regeneration" sure helped the Red pilot in downing the F-22. It was not a classical "dog fight" rather as I said before an instance where lack of situational awareness allowed the Red pilot to go unchallenged and shoot down the Raptor. The lack of any other F-22 losses should demonstrate quite clearly than under realistic scenarios, and even under most unrealistic ones this bird is very effective at what it does...

This is a perfect example of why we have training schools like Red Flag and Top Gun. You can have the best fighter on the planet, but if its being flown by someone who hasn't been prepared then its just so much scrap metal(or plastic in this case).

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by YASKY
A while ago an F-18 with a newer APG-79 shot down a F-22

Perhaps you should read the post(s) above you before commenting on a thread? Just a thought...

There is no post talking about the F-18 downing of a F-22 so whats you point??

Actually there is... Recall this link from my post above.

And here is my post which put the Rhino "kill" BS to rest a long time ago.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I'm sure in this one instance the intimate knowledge of Red Flag rules and regulations regarding "regeneration" sure helped the Red pilot in downing the F-22.

Westpoint23,

Respectfully, After having read the article 4 different times, I believe you may be confused about the circumstances of the simulated F-22 shootdown in question. This has nothing to do with the famous "Regeneration Incident". This simulated shoot down was the result of a clever tactical menuver by the IP flying Red Force.

The one you are talking about is the result of a situation born of the training environment. This has nothing to do with a "killed" aircraft regenerating.

Tim

Tim, the incidents are one in the same, read the posting form the linked website again...

...the 94th ran headlong into the F-16s of the 64th Aggressor Squadron and suffered its first simulated shoot-down. Somehow the news escaped me, but Airforces Monthly has all the dirty details in its July issue:..

The posting is an update with information just coming out in the AF's July issue relating to the original event which occurred in February while the 94th FS was deployed to Nellis for Red Flag 07-01 dubbed "Colonial Flag".

Notice the dates...

2/14/2007 - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. (ACCNS) -- The F-22A Raptor is flying in its first Red Flag exercise that started here Feb. 3, showcasing its stealth, super cruise and other advantages absent in legacy fighters.

Within the exercise, pilots from the 94th Fighter Squadron, Langley AFB, Va., are flying F-22s against Red Flag aggressors, with pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force of Australia, and the Royal Air Force of England. This is the first time the F-22 has flown with coalition forces.

The 94th FS deployed 14 Raptors and 197 personnel to play in the Red Flag exercise, which ends Feb. 16. Including the F-22s, more than 200 aircraft are participating. Among the foreign aircraft involved are the RAF's GR-4 and RAAF's F-111C. In addition, the F-22s are flying with the B-2 Spirit and F-117 Nighthawk, the aircraft that pioneered stealth. Other typical aircraft at Red Flag are the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon and more.

Source

ONE F-22 LOSS AT RED FLAG ATTRIBUTED TO BAD TACTICS:

The U.S. Air Force says that its F-22 fighter's debut in a Red Flag aerial combat training exercise with coalition forces underscored the known attributes of the stealthy jet, though the demonstration did not include trials of its most exotic electronic attack capabilities. Employment of electronic attack tactics, which are inherently offered by the F-22's Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, was not included in the exercise that took place this month. The friendly "blue" force lost one F-22 during the exercise, Col. Tom Bergeson, who was the air expeditionary wing commander for the Red Flag, says.

He attributes the loss to a confusing "mulligan," whereby an enemy "red" fighter regenerated or re-entered the fight unbeknownst to the blue forces. "We made some tactical mistakes and one slipped through," Bergeson said. Bergeson also praised software developers for a quick turnaround after the four lead F-22s of a 12-ship deployment to Kadena Air Base, Japan, recently encountered navigation computer problems upon crossing the International Date Line. "It wasn't anything catastrophic," Bergeson said, though the computers would not have been able to provide accurate navigation data to divert locations without the fix. But the decision was made to send the aircraft back to Hawaii as a "better-safe-than-sorry approach." (Aerospace Daily & Defense Report)

Source

As I said before this topic was covered before and the incident happed due to the inherent and sometimes unrealistic conditions of Red Flag.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by WestPoint23]

What a bunk "kill." Thats pretty unrealistic, an dead enemy resurects it's self after being vaporized. Well not in real life. and in real life nothings been able to "shoot Down" a raptor unless it was under botched or unrealistic scenerios that wouldn't happen in real life.

That kill was about as legitamit (and as legit as my spelling) as getting taken out in that counter strike game because some dude respawned right behind you while you were camping and caps you point blank in the back of the head.

not saying the raptor is invincible though which is a good point.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Tim, the incidents are one in the same, read the posting form the linked website again...

He attributes the loss to a confusing "mulligan," whereby an enemy "red" fighter regenerated or re-entered the fight unbeknownst to the blue forces. "We made some tactical mistakes and one slipped through," Bergeson said.

Source

As I said before this topic was covered before and the incident happed due to the inherent and sometimes unrealistic conditions of Red Flag.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by WestPoint23]

Whoops, I misread the article.I thought this was a different incident. I wasn't expecting an update on the same story.

Thanks for setting me straight Westpoint! That what happens when you try to speed read during your lunch break at work.

Tim

[edit on 7/17/2007 by Ghost01]

Good find guys, Im glad were undergoing such simulations that will save lives in the future.

I love that new nose the F-22 has.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by topsecretombomb]

What new nose does the F-22 have?

that said the first f-22 red flag was in february...but i was out there in january 2 weeks earlier for red flag as well, and the raptor was there, and they said that was the first red flag it was participating in....

p.s.

www.nellis.af.mil...

1/11/2007
This is the first of three scheduled Red Flags for this year, and for the first time, the F-22/A Raptor is participating.

but the same site says the february one was the first.....they are confusing themselves

[edit on 8-8-2007 by wenfieldsecret]

F-22s have been to Nellis many times over the last few years. But that doesn't mean that they were participating in Red Flag. They flew Raptors out to Nellis in 2003 and 2004, but Red Flag isn't the only reason for Nellis. The only F-22s that were part of Red Flag were in Red Flag 07-2 Period 2. Period 1 which was in January didn't have F-22s participating.

The second Red Flag of fiscal year 2007 (Red Flag 07-02 "Colonial Flag") took place from January 13th through February 17th. Red Flag 07-02 consisted of two periods of two weeks each separated by a one week break. As Zaph pointed out Raptor's only participated in Red Flag during the second period, but that does not mean they were not at Nellis for Period One. So really there is no confusion on the part of Nellis or the Air Force.

[edit on 8-8-2007 by WestPoint23]