CONTINUED

I was not making fun of the paranoids, I just think some of your ideas do not pass the feasibility quotient. I mean look how many people now support Bush and his policies. If things get worse, I think this country might slip into revolution, which would be a worst case scenario. Maybe, if this happens, we could learn from the past and make it a "velvet revolution."

I am just trying to see that all may not be what it seems and you should consider other possibilities before diving off the deep end with conspiracies. Fear is a negative thought process and once it gets a hold of you it is hard to shake loose. The other things is fear spreads like a disease, so be careful how you use it. I just don't think it is healthy for people to be walking around feared out of their mind's of our government. I know it is a scary period of time currently, but you can't do anything about it now.

I would just like people to have an open mind and not close in on one train of thought, especially if you don't know the full story. I believe in the future anything is possible. I will though never be afraid of the government cracking down on the most basic freedoms of life.

There is no reason to fear, just talk out against the problems and people will hear it, that is what is so great about the internet and places like ATS. It gives us a forum for discussing these issues that are very important. The one thing is if you wrap everything up into a big conspiracy to take over the world, people will not listen what you have to say. Some may, but many will dismiss it without thought, because taking over the world by one group big or small would be an amazing feat. You just lose credibility every time you say things like Al-CIAda (which is clever) and NWO conspiracy.

I know this a conspiracy forum, whatever, this is just my opinion.

I know everything sometimes looks like a big conspiracy, and I guess in a way it is.

Sorry for being off topic.

Originally posted by JRCrowley
Uh, I think you may have somewhat misinterpreted the supposition behind my post.

I understood your point quite well, and I think we're on the same page with a lot of ideas.

The internet is, and has been, a monitoring device since it's inception. But, with the ongoing "War on Terror" it's not the internet that I'm concerned about. It's the everyday lives of American that are continually being striped of any sort of privacy it once had. The government has been using phone taps for years ... but not so ruthlessly and rampantly as it is allowed to today. With Americans communicating more and more on digital devices, our freedom to privacy suffers a continual erosion because these devices are designed to be easily tracked and any average Joe could get a frequency scanner to listen in.

I'm not saying that I don't think we should have these methods in effect, I'm just saying there should be a watchdog group that makes sure such monitoring doesn't get out of control. I don't believe the government should be logging information to sell to corporations, or futile information of citizens such as what political party they have affiliation to, or what religious denomination they conform to.

Logging information such as this leads to the real problems. When in times of trouble or persecution, leaders of countries turn to drastic measure to ensure their power. In 1939 it was the Jews that were enemies of the state in Nazi Germany. It's not quite that bad today, but in Capitalist America it's the Muslim "extremist" that is the enemy. Anyone that cannot see the correlation between the two, doesn't want to understand the truth behind our Gestapo-esque tactics our government agencies function behind today.

Any inch the government gains on public monitoring is a loss in the battle to maintain our constitutional freedoms. If we lay down on the way agencies monitor us on the internet, it's a foot in the door of our homes.

This isnt about Facebook its about the entire Internet being one huge BigBrotheresque monitoring device. With one little difference: As much as they can spy on us we can also spy on THEM. Nobody is safe from snooping much less the snoopers themselves.

Originally posted by tyranny22

Originally posted by JRCrowley
Uh, I think you may have somewhat misinterpreted the supposition behind my post.

I understood your point quite well, and I think we're on the same page with a lot of ideas.

The internet is, and has been, a monitoring device since it's inception. But, with the ongoing "War on Terror" it's not the internet that I'm concerned about. It's the everyday lives of American that are continually being striped of any sort of privacy it once had.

I'm about to make a statement here and I don't want you to take it the wrong way. Now, I realize that ATS is essentially an American board. I know that most people on ATS are probably American. Why the hell is it that you Americans tend to look at global issues and phenomena as if they only matter to Americans, as if they only relate to Americans? The Internet is global. The Internet is universal. Everyone on earth connects to the same network. The Internet is an internetwork of networks! So why is it that Americans sometimes referred to issues around the Internet as only affecting them? Sorry, I guess that was my statement. Like I say, not to cause a fuss here, but this kind of stuff -- I see it too much and I find it frankly annoying. Bitching over...

In regard to your post, I was actually thinking exactly the same way. We do seem to think the same way on this issue. The Internet is no longer -- and/or never was -- private. Let's face it, it was invented by the military anyway, so who are we fooling? How or why the heck with the military create something like the Internet without keeping the deck of cards in their favor? This goes way back, passed ARPANET, past Sputnik, past early forms of military communication and so on. So now were into the era of satellites, HAARP and God knows what else. And what about RFI? Ouch. This stuff is right around the corner. Sooner than many of us think, the implants are going to come out, promising us all kinds of economic and social benefits. I personally cannot wait until I finally get my first implant. (My tongue is firmly planted in my cheek in case you didn't notice)

Just for fun, let's look at a definition of privacy: "the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs". Think about this meaning for a second, and ask yourself, am I being intruded upon? Am I being disturbed? It's fascinating to think that her parents generation and their parents generation weren't as bombarded by television and other media as we are. I frankly find a lot of television very intrusive and very disturbing. Yet I sit there and watch for some nasty reason... I've been brainwashed! That's why! Turned into a vegetable and beaten-down by my own need to find entertainment, to escape reality for a while and to wind down after a hard day at the office. Constant nagging commercials, annoying television shows that I shouldn't be watching in the first place... and yet I put up with this stuff. I'm sure a lot of you guys do too. And they'll get you in public is well. Billboards, too much signage on streets and highways, noise everywhere... how can we not say that we haven't been disturbed and intruded upon? Our lives in this day and age have been turned into a noisy con, filled with rage, anger and frustrated social chaos. Times have changed. This is one of the things I think about fairly regularly these days. I often wonder how life has changed since the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s... and so on. Is it just me or do you guys not sometimes think of this as well? Is life really as chaotic and crazy in 2007 as I sometimes think?

[edit on 17-7-2007 by JRCrowley]

This thread shows examples of exactly what the government has wanted to happen since it's inception. Apathy. Apathy to real problems on hand, only to be skirted away by faux issues of little importance. Freedom is our lives, The freedom to think freely, the freedom to speak what you will without fear of reprecussions of your thoughts. This is the foundation of western democracy. And slowly this foundation has been picked at by the vultures of our governments, trying they're hardest to take it away to make best benefit of they're own greed and corruption. They've made us apathic to what they do through the constant bombardment of shadowy unseen enemies, untangible, and impossible to stop. The War on Drugs, the War on Communism, The War on Terror, all these wars, all for the constant demoralization of the people of democracy.

And here we stand, seeing the outcome of the mass media enforced brainwashing. The people of America, no, of much of the western world, have been demoralized to a point of apathy. Nobody speaks up when the US government throws away the bill of rights. The "conspiracies" of LSD testing and wiretaping by the CIA in the 70s were disclosed, and proven, not a peep? We shrug off the FBIs usage of warrantlessly activating your cellphone to listen in on you, all the while the media reports it as a small time PR story. We allow people to go to jail indefinitely because we've been told they're our enemy?

"If you have nothing to hide..."

well, Thats why I said it. Theres always a cause and effect. The CIA causes it blowback.

I believe a quote from Swordfish actually sums up the last 50 years of the United states:

Terrorist states. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city.

We terrorize Iran by mowing down people in the streets with machine guns, they take our people hostage, we blow them up, they blow us up.

Theres really no such thing as "pure evil people" that attack people for no reason. They always have some reason. Some Idealogical or politically based belief, a point or a purpose.

Maybe if we weren't attacking them for 50 years, they wouldn't have attacked back.

Just a thought.

I knew something was up with all these social sites..especially facebook. Some of the info they ask for makes me go "WTF!" sometimes.

Anywayz...to mislead is to gain advantage.

Originally posted by JRCrowley
Why the hell is it that you Americans tend to look at global issues and phenomena as if they only matter to Americans, as if they only relate to Americans?

It's fascinating to think that her parents generation and their parents generation weren't as bombarded by television and other media as we are.

I frankly find a lot of television very intrusive and very disturbing. Billboards, too much signage on streets and highways, noise everywhere... how can we not say that we haven't been disturbed and intruded upon?

I agree that we tend to think on a local level, but I think we could also probably agree that there's more greed, corruption and struggle for global domination in the United States than in almost any other country. I know that statement is subject to opinion, but I havn't seen Spain, England or India invade and occupy other countries in centuries. I apologies for making the statements directly from the US standpoint, but face it, if we eliminate the monitoring here in the states, we eliminate half the world's surveilence as well.

Britian has adopted a notion of self policing it's citizen's with 24-hr surveilence, but to my knowledge there hasn't been too much fussed raised about it. Even when I've seen the issue discussed here, people may not agree with it, but that was about as far as it went. There was little if any arguement raised. Honestly, if the US did the same thing, I don't know if I'd be so bothered by it either ... which brings me to my next point:

I don't like the way that we as "consumers" (I hate that capitalist term - rings of "cattle") are bombarded with intrusive advertising, but the fact remains that when we're in our cars, on a bus, in the mall, or practically anywhere but in our homes – we're still in public domain. This is space that no one in the world owns and is subject to the whims of the social economy. We decide to drive to work and we make a conscious decision to accept all that it entails, including the over-sized, obnoxious billboard advertisements. More and more I disagree with the disturbing effects of this type of society. But, there's not much that can be done about living with capitalism. It seems to be the catalyst for the order of this new world.

It's only when the intrusiveness drops below this level and into the daily lives of Jane Doe or John Smith. When information such as religion, ethnicity, political views and other private data that we have the right to protect as private are catalouged and mined daily is when these intrusive efforts become dangerous. Such information can be used to single different sects and parties out and such information can be turned against them. Such as when it was the "Muslims" that bombed the church, or it was the "Catholics" that molested the children, or it was the Republicans who ordered the mass killings, or it was the Latinos that took away your jobs. Such information, when attained and applied in a manipulative manner can be much more effective at swaying one's views.

I guess I tend to speak in a manner which is inclusive to the United States because that is where I see the most problems. If it weren't for the US we wouldn't have the wars in Afghanistan, or Iraq. I think the US has done some good around the world, but not as much as it's hurt the world. If it wasn't for the United States looking after it's own interests during the Afghan/Soviet war, then 9/11 would never have happened and the world wouldn't be in the situation it is in today. I know I've just opened up and big jar of worms with that statement and now I'll give everyone a chance to attack and slander me for such a statement. Have at it!

[edit on 19-7-2007 by tyranny22]

Yes it is, i've started a group on facebook, informing everyone it was owned by the CIA, hopefully it will spread, and people will boycott. I suggest if others have been tricked and pressured into making an account by their friends (as i have) create such a group also.

Thanks for the info ADVISOR.

I believe the internet has changed dramatically since its inception. I still believe that the internet should be a place of a certain anonymity. For example, how many people here would post under their real name? A majority wouldn't, why is that?

It's the ignorance (and in some cases, stupidity) of people who use sites such as Facebook to "stay connected" and defend it with whatever reasons they can come up with. Don't get me wrong, these sites would be fine and dandy (to a certain extent) if they weren't being controlled and used for "dislikable" purposes. Anything that has the hands of the government in it should be examined thoroughly...

Originally posted by WolfofWar

...Facebook was designed to data mine College students, 18-25. People that have a political say, people that are the "current generation" that have enough information that can be used to skewer and make agendas on.

Things have changed that much in AmeriKKKa since the '90s?

That comment is interesting, since you seem to have more enemies than even I do -- or is that only at ATS not the "real" world?

But I'm just a early '90s college grad in mom's basement who can't read or write, so what the hell do I know?

Originally posted by duplicity

The reason that people still use these sites is because they either don't believe the government is doing such a thing, the government wouldn't even care (see some of the posts on this thread), or they don't care.

Or alternatives and the empowerment of John Q. Public to create his own alternatives is lacking -- a problem that that deserves multiple threads covering every angle.

Most likely only a few percent of the population cares anyway.

The truth is a useless commodity that will hang around your neck like an albatross -- all the way to the homeless shelter. And if you think that the million or so people in this country that are really interested in the truth about their government can support people who would tell them the truth, you got another think coming. Because the million or so people in this country that are truly interested in the truth don't have any money."

-- (supposedly) Jeb Bush

Besides, (almost) everything here and elsewhere ends up mined by google. It should be possible to figure out your real identity if say, for example, you've used your real name and email address and posted on news servers (USENET).

I never really bothered to hide my identity, since for long before the Internet there had been no privacy for a very long time.

Have you ever voted in primaries? Guess what, whether you registered Republican or Democrat is public information. Does your house have a whole house air conditioner? Voter registrations are a gold mine, as are real estate tax records. One compound word: PUBLIC RECORD!!!!

[edit on 4-8-2007 by autumnofburnoutcommie67]

[edit on 4-8-2007 by autumnofburnoutcommie67]