Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

KOOL, you can hold guns in the UK without the gov keeping records. OK, then you guys won't ever become a police state. However, a little questioning over this new PM. May I present example A of the UK Gov's refusal to see reality:

Gordon Brown has banned ministers from using the word “Muslim” in connection with the terrorism crisis.

The Prime Minister has also instructed his team – including new Home Secretary Jacqui Smith – that the phrase “war on terror” is to be dropped.

The shake-up is part of a fresh attempt to improve community relations and avoid offending Muslims, adopting a more “consensual” tone than existed under Tony Blair. . . .

Mr Brown’s spokesman acknowledged yesterday that ministers had been given specific guidelines to avoid inflammatory language. “There is clearly a need to strike a consensual tone in relation to all communities across the UK,” the spokesman said. “It is important that the country remains united.”

source: sayanythingblog.com...

[edit on 19-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Defend tyranny with all your might! CCTV is good and no constitution is fantastic. I especially love the new law that you can't protest near parliament without a permit. The smell of freedom at least you have gun owner... oh sorry you don't have that either. Well my mom told me stories of the Bobby not being armed so why would you need guns. Oh wait they have weapons now.

Many of the anti-terror initiatives taken in u.k. were to defend against the I.R.A. now they they are gone i guess you can scale back the surveillance but wait what about islamic jihadism must stop the terrorists.

I don't want to compare U.K. to U.S. or any other nwo nation because its like deciding what tastes better bleach or draino. They are all tyrannies that scare us then pass laws, scare us and pass laws and then repeat until we are all living in little tiny terrace housing and can be managed better.

The U.K. is just further along because the House of Windsor is there and the Rothschild bankers are there and they are very scared of the public. Anyway i love the British stiff upper lip but direct national pride to your government who will continue to slowly remove your rights bit by bit. NWO is the enemy and they have no nation they are globalists.

Gorman91- Do you have any idea how much people get pissed off when the 'Muslim Jihad hates freedom' bull# gets said?

Hell, i get annoyed at it and im an atheist.

War on Terror? Complete and utter trash. Its the US finding an excuse to use their pretty weapons against a country which can hardly fight back, and then calls the people terrorists when they fight back the only way they can (suicide bombing)

I just saw an interview with a US weapons researcher, it sickened me. He was literally excited when he said that the Iraq war gave them the chance to use their "Weapons of mass carnage against a live enemy" (His words, not mine.)

If you want a war on Terror you can also look in your own borders, remember the Oklahoma bombing? That was an act of Terrorism.

Also, labelling Muslims as Terrorists just pisses people off to no end. It just proves to me more how Justified the Modern crusade against Muslims is.

Anyway, i live in Australia. John Howard has passed many laws giving them powers such as being able to hold a person for 2 weeks without a warrant.

do i care? # no. They can listen to my conversations and cover the cities with CCTV. If they listen to my conversations all they are going to hear is me abusing telemarketers. If they watch me they will see me going places i enjoy.

If any of this catches a terrorist, or a murderer or a rapist or any kind of criminal, its money well spent.

Rant over, but not forgotten

Sorry if this has been said but I believe its the case here in the UK that if you're arrested by the police and they take DNA swabs and then later release you without charge your details and DNA stay on their database.

Can a definition of a police state be one that keeps records on innocent people?

police state
–noun a nation in which the police, esp. a secret police, summarily suppresses any social, economic, or political act that conflicts with governmental policy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1860–65]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Originally posted by Octavius Maximus
Gorman91- Do you have any idea how much people get pissed off when the 'Muslim Jihad hates freedom' bull# gets said?

Hell, i get annoyed at it and im an atheist.

War on Terror? Complete and utter trash. Its the US finding an excuse to use their pretty weapons against a country which can hardly fight back, and then calls the people terrorists when they fight back the only way they can (suicide bombing)

I just saw an interview with a US weapons researcher, it sickened me. He was literally excited when he said that the Iraq war gave them the chance to use their "Weapons of mass carnage against a live enemy" (His words, not mine.)

If you want a war on Terror you can also look in your own borders, remember the Oklahoma bombing? That was an act of Terrorism.

Also, labelling Muslims as Terrorists just pisses people off to no end. It just proves to me more how Justified the Modern crusade against Muslims is.

Anyway, i live in Australia. John Howard has passed many laws giving them powers such as being able to hold a person for 2 weeks without a warrant.

do i care? # no. They can listen to my conversations and cover the cities with CCTV. If they listen to my conversations all they are going to hear is me abusing telemarketers. If they watch me they will see me going places i enjoy.

If any of this catches a terrorist, or a murderer or a rapist or any kind of criminal, its money well spent.

Rant over, but not forgotten

The army's thinking sucks ass because of general patton leathers rather then general pattons. But:

en.wikipedia.org...

Most terrorists attacks in the past few years are from the middle east and not to the US, but the West in general. Open your eyes. There is no NWO, no secret world gov, no crazy folks. (ok, maybe a NWO, but it has already failed miserably)

The US is far too big and far too deverse in opinion to EVER be control by the gov. The gov can pass all the laws it wants, that doesn't mean anyone will follow them.
The terrorists are out there, and thank God for Europe as a shield. Yea it sounds cruel, but its true.

And the Iraq's have PLENTY to fight with. Anything from 30 year old USSR AK's from old storage centers to the tons of arms from hamas across the western border.

Do you defend the captivity of women in the east? do you defend the slaughter of children as sacrifice to Allah? (pakistan recently had this) Do you defend a degrade back to the 9th century?'

Just because an asshole is in command doesn't mean that the war is fake. its over oil, yes, but have you ever been there? Do you know what women go through? Do you know what people go through under the control of corrupt mosques that preach hate? The US screwed things up, yes, but that still doesn't mean that there is no war on terror.

What about the Sudan aboriginal and Christian citizens being destroyed by Muslims in darfar?

What about the fact that of British muslims support terror against the West?

What about the riots of France and Denmark and the fact that the new president was a conservative, and that he is now PAYING off Muslims to leave?

You are blinded by you're little hole in the ground and your computer. Ask any refugee from Iraq what the truth is. Not over the Internet, in person.


[edit on 20-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by stumason
Indeed. I've been nicked before, but was perfectly civil and polite. I ended up being treated very well, up to the point where I was given freedom to roam in and out of my cell to use the toilet or go for a smoke. A Policeman even joined me for a fag at one point!

A damn good example of why the UK could never be a 'Police State'...politeness is just too ingrained in our culture to go the whole Stalin 9-yards...although if it were to happen, queue-jumpers would be the first to be incarcerated without judicial process



And for Stumason..

You have voted Stumason for the Way Above Jack Dee Award. You have 2 more votes left this month

Gordon91-

All i hear from this site is to "open my eyes" but they always follow with a completly different idea.

I think instead of "open your eyes" you should say "agree with me, for i need comfort"

Most terrorists attacks in the past few years are from the middle east and not to the US, but the West in general. Open your eyes. There is no NWO, no secret world gov, no crazy folks. (ok, maybe a NWO, but it has already failed miserably)

Most...not all. You cant just look at percentages

The US is far too big and far too deverse in opinion to EVER be control by the gov. The gov can pass all the laws it wants, that doesn't mean anyone will follow them.

And you say you are patriotic. Please. if your not prepared to accept the tiny husk of a government that you have now, how will you handle it when someone decides to finally take charge?

The terrorists are out there, and thank God for Europe as a shield. Yea it sounds cruel, but its true.

it is cruel, i know where i would prefer all the bombs to go, though.

And the Iraq's have PLENTY to fight with. Anything from 30 year old USSR AK's from old storage centers to the tons of arms from hamas across the western border.

yes, do you know what will happen if they followed your ideal scenario?

*come out, shoot, be shot, be bombed, be annihilated*

That is what will happen. So they are fighting using the means which is effective.

Do you defend the captivity of women in the east?

I was hoping someone would bring this up. The Shah was a great leader who was lessoning all of these things. Then, of course, you blundered in and made everyone scared and when people are scared they look to their ancestors and their old ways.

The thing is, though, that you have no right to tell them that they are wrong, do you. Muslim families come to Australia and nothing really changes, they keep their dress and stuff and noone really cares. You cannot say that it is wrong. (That isnt my belief though, its the belief of the constitution. The brainwasher of the US)

Just because an asshole is in command doesn't mean that the war is fake. its over oil, yes, but have you ever been there? Do you know what women go through? Do you know what people go through under the control of corrupt mosques that preach hate? The US screwed things up, yes, but that still doesn't mean that there is no war on terror.

Im not saying that, goddamn it. Im saying that it is physically impossible to fight terrorism in a conventional way. You cant go to war with these kins of organisations. Its like attacking your front lawn. you can go and stick flags in it, and do all manner of things. But a few days of neglect and itll grow back.

You are blinded by you're little hole in the ground and your computer. Ask any refugee from Iraq what the truth is. Not over the Internet, in person.

Well i dont have any refugees close, i do have a couple of Australian soldiers though. We told him to be careful and he said that he wasnt going to get hurt, theres a few thousand American soldiers before him.

The main annoyance i have with this moronic war is the damage. Iraq has some of the most wonderful history. Beautiful architecture and artwork which is completly irreplaceable.

Each minute you stay there with your guns and flags you risk damaging or destroying these things.

So help me, though. If you decide to attack Iran, Iraq, anywhere, and damage ANY of the sites at places like Persepolis, Deir-el-madina or anything else. I'd want to bomb America myself.

My closing thought, as always. Get the Hell out of Iraq! Youve pissed them of beyond patience now. The only way to stop attacks on the US is genocide, and its your damned fault.

Goddamn this forum makes my blood boil sometimes.

Octavius Maximus, I hate the war in Iraq, I'm not defending it. Hell, if it was up to me, I'd sneak in assassins in, kill sadam, and let the people settle it. The idiots in the gov now have no brain what so ever. "I like to call them patton lethers rather then general pattons" is my personal favorite quote of the leadership. What I do know is that the Muslims (the radical ones) need an attitude adjustment. And trust me, if they're not afraid to die and use suicide bombs, their not afraid to take old AK's and the likes. The world is in a certain problem now. If the US falls, the West falls. If the US stays, the world gets corrupt. You can be assured that the American people are going to take it into their own hands. They're going to take back their gov and fix it by force. In the time during this, the US will leave world affairs to deal with its own problems. during the re alignment, the world will fall to tyranny and death. When the US is back in order and under civilian control, then we will be the last becon of hope, and have to fight WW3 to fix the stupid world. it may not be believable to most, but its going down that way by the looks of it. I can honestly say though, that we screwed ourselves. because once we leave Iraq, it will fall to Iran. Then Israel will be nuked. Then the Asian Alliance (Russia, China, Iran, And N Korea) are going to screw the world up. All that requires this to happen is an American Revolution. It will all go to hell, then come back to peace.

Originally posted by neformore
OK.

After a few days of research, have a guess at how many camera's I pass on my 8 mile journey to work and back every day, and while I visit the local supermarket which is about 3 miles away from me.

Heres a clue. I don't live in London. Its 200 miles away from me.

Wow....quoting myself.

Anyway, as no one took up the challenge, I'll tell you.

The answer is none. Zero.

Yesterday I drove 164 miles, and passed approximately 10 traffic monitoring cameras (used by the highways agency to monitor traffic flows) on the motorway network and one speed camera off it, and no other CCTV cameras.

Police state my arse.

[edit on 21/0707/07 by neformore]

There's a point that needs be made in this debate, and that is the difference between a Police State and a Surveillance State...while I agree with Stu's OP that the UK is certainly not the former, we are most definately living in a surveillance society.

Originally posted by citizen smith
There's a point that needs be made in this debate, and that is the difference between a Police State and a Surveillance State...while I agree with Stu's OP that the UK is certainly not the former, we are most definately living in a surveillance society.

yep but, who watches the watchers. The police do have ultimate power, and you see now how they want to bring in unlimited time to hold suspected terrorists

Originally posted by andy1033
yep but, who watches the watchers.

We, the public should!

There are 2weeks every year (I forget when) that the public can request to access and view any public-record not exempt from the Official Secrets Act, such as an MP's accounts&expenses reports, or access any building in the public domain. Perhaps CCTV monitoring stations can be included (if not already) and requests made by any member of the public for a civil-inspection.

Gorman91- please, the Western world began in Greece and was oh so very strong long before the US had anything to do with it.

Saying that the US is the Lynchpin of the Western world is the most arrogent thing ive ever heard.

The UK is becoming a PC Nanny state with a few new laws that on 2nd look are perfectly designed to raise extra revenue for the Treasury.
We have lots of cameras,and I can see why someone from overseas could feel paranoid about the state spying on you.

The sorry thing is we need those cameras in the cities as the binge drinking culture can produce a lot of swaggering,belching and farting Tysons leaving the many bars and clubs in the early hours of the morning-and thats just the ladies.lol

We are not perfect by a long shot but those cameras are there to protect us-I dont do anything wrong so have no reason to fear them.Put it this way if i was assualted in the streets of London the 1st thing I would demand from the police was for them to search ALL the cams on that street and find the person quickly

I do think our media is becoming the goverments voice,our main fear here is that the media will roll over and print whatever the labour party tells them too.The recent Queen,Brown and contest rigging rows to dirty the BBC came just before the Cash for Honers whitewash!
The labour goverment have been untouchable for a long time and it seems the media will roll over backwards to say what there told


latest polls say Labour will win next election with the pension thief warmonger scottish mp staying as Englands primeminister!With the amount of mud been thrown at the other parties i am not surprised

I have read this topic from top to bottom,very good arguments for @ against,fact being the U.K.is not a democratic country,leastways compared to a few years ago.
I personally think it is all to do with the "E.U,"as they seem to be given the rights to tell us what to do, this has been slowly signed away by previous political parties.
As previously stated, we do not have enough police on patrol,do not need them,cameras will do it for you.
No it is not a police state,but this country is in a helluva state,I could make a list as long as anybody else,fact of the matter as far as I am concerned any country that was democratic there laws rights call them what you like are being eroded,and for once it really concerns me,the future generation.

Octavius Maximus, I'll give you a night mare scenario.

Imagine the US is attacked multiple times and the US calls an emergency senate meeting. Now imagine a nuke goes off killing all the US gov's line os succesion. I guarantee you the War Czar would demand to be put into leadership, and would fight over it with some other lower level managment of the gov. While the US enters civil war, this would be the world

ASIA
With the US out of the way, Iraq is taken over by Iran and Saudi Arabia forms a pack in attempt to defend themselves (Sunni Shiite battles) Iran wins because it has a more powerful army (yes, it does). Israel is destroyed by Iran.

N Korea, not having any thing to worry about, invades S Korea, and Japan next (yes, they would, they hate the japs for ww2).

Russia, no longer in competition with the US, can go a few ways.

Scenario A is a revolution by southern Russia by white supremacist nazis south of Moscow. A Nazi Russia is created and wants its lost land from the USSR back.

Scenario B is that the Russian gov cracks down on revolutionaries, forms an Asian alliance with China and Iran (its already in this direction) and unites into an Asian Union. One that controls the Oil industry, and much more.

I'll go with scenario B, because even if Russia has a revolution, the Nazis are likely to join the Chinese and Iranians.

EUROPE

With the USA out of the picture, NATO collapses without its biggest fund giver. Many nations in Europe begin to decay without US support. England is in all out riot by Muslim extremists. France could go into riot if the Muslim extremists aren't removed, but because today they are paying them to leave, France will likely go on. Denmark collapses via Muslim revolution. Eastern Europe collapses into fire because the US isn't there to stop anything. The UN is likely to collapse due to world wide stresses and the UN building has obviously been moved out of the US. the EU is likely to stay together, but lose members.

AFRICA.

Without US and European support, disease will spread out of control and kill many. African members of the UN will be cut off from Europe when the UN collapses. And African Union is likely to form. One that will likely be in the south and focus on economic and civil unity and strength.

Without US and European pressure, Sudan is likely to go on with genocide, likely spreading into Chad and Ethiopia. Christian and Aboriginal populations are likely to seek refuge in the African Union (AU) and they are likely to cause population disturbances much like the illegal immigrant problem in the Ex-US.

Due to Arab take over in the North, Radicals will likely begin to come in and crush all non-Muslim populations.

AMERICA

Without the US, the North American Union likely in place by this time will collapse due to civil war. The Civil war in the US is likely to spread into Mexico where Conservative and Liberal battles will grow. Mexico is likely to go into civil war as well. Canada is likely to close off the border to the US, where displaced US citizens will seek refuge. Canada will likely have difficulty in keeping millions of displaces Americans from coming in.

Venezuelan is likely to go into a Police State and a revolution will likely follow against Hugo Chavez. Much of South America is likely to go into revolution without US support. Drug dealers will likely lose business in the US and use their money to cause revolutions further.

AUSTRALIA

Australia will likely close itself off from the world. It is likely to be harassed by the Chinese who will want one of he Last remaining "westernized" nations. Terrorism will likely spill over into Australia before the Chinese do.



So, this is what is likely to occur if the US goes into civil war. Now, I live here, and you can be guaranteed that I will join the revolution if they take our right to bare arms away. I don't care if I cause all the death and destruction around the world by helping the cause of freedom. I want my rights, and you know Americans are radical when it comes to rights.

So, hope the best to you Octavius Maximus. Because although you are likely to be the last to feel the stress of the US revolution, the effects will hit you soon enough.

Tiny things in completely separate parts of the world can cause massive problems world wide.

I don't think that there is an argument to be honest.

The UK has regional police forces that are independent of the gov't....yeah but who watches the watchers??

the Independent Police Complaints Commission is there to take up any complaints against the police. Anyone can log a complaint and there will be an investigation. Landmark cases are published so that anyone can access them.

Have a look for yourself

As far as i understand things, parliament is ruling with delegated authority from HRM Lizzie II so when there is a big decision to be made (such as a declaration of war) Lizzie would have to give her Royal Assent, with the best interests of the people in consideration. Lizzie has to remain politically impartial....obviously she would see the same info as the PM to make these kinds of decisions....saying that...i can't recall a time when she hasn't given her assent......[gulp...]

info on parliament

There are plenty of checks and balances in place to stop the UK becoming a police state or dictatorship...the first thing that would be necessary is the removal of the Royal Family and i couldn't imagine that would go down very well with the army or the other nations of the commonwealth. (remember she is their head of state too...)

CCTV camera's are for public safety and as has been said most are privately owned anyway....posting pics of traffic monitoring / congestion charging cameras doesn't really hold that much sway for me.

To be a true police state there would need to be a government controlled 'secret' police force and/or military and insignificant or no opposition to the ruling party IMHO (no I'm not referring to the Tories!!)

just my thoughts.....

Originally posted by Gorman91
EUROPE

With the USA out of the picture, NATO collapses without its biggest fund giver. Many nations in Europe begin to decay without US support. England is in all out riot by Muslim extremists. France could go into riot if the Muslim extremists aren't removed, but because today they are paying them to leave, France will likely go on. Denmark collapses via Muslim revolution. Eastern Europe collapses into fire because the US isn't there to stop anything. The UN is likely to collapse due to world wide stresses and the UN building has obviously been moved out of the US. the EU is likely to stay together, but lose members.

Its really, really nice to know that you have such a high opinion of your own country to the extent where you think it has a hand in everything everyone across the world does.

Your crassly arrogant assumptions do, however, manage to miss out the fact that the countries you mention have their own governments and indigenous populations, all of which are perfectly capable of running themselves, and do so already, quite effectively.

Originally posted by uknumpty
Sorry if this has been said but I believe its the case here in the UK that if you're arrested by the police and they take DNA swabs and then later release you without charge your details and DNA stay on their database.

Can a definition of a police state be one that keeps records on innocent people?

And near where I live theres a lady very happy about that as she was raped many years ago and DNA samples were taken from her of her attacker. Quite recently a man committed some type of crime and was DNA swabbed and his DNA matched the rapist of that woman.
He was confronted with it and confessed.

It aint all bad you know