Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

Originally posted by mlmijyd
A Police state is going to mean different things to different people but and the 'Norm' refers to the anyone who wouldn't ask these questions.

On the contrary, a Police State is something quite distinct.

Originally posted by mlmijyd
So now that you have ‘said all that’.... lets see you challenge and indeed change the fact that we just have inherited Mr. Brown, or no don’t pay tens of billions every year for the oxymoron that is the ‘Health Service’ and immigration is a direct result of having a ruling party that has not the consensus of the people in this country,,,, but hey Mr. non-Police state lets see you a) Actually speak out about it and not get called Racist and b) Again, actually change it by ???????

You can speak out against it. Obviously, there are PC types, but it depends how you approach the matter. Shouting "Those damn immigrants, stealing our jobs and our houses!", is hardly conducive to a constructive debate.

However, there is plenty of debate going on about the very things you said you can't talk about. Do you even pay attention to what is going at all?

Originally posted by mlmijyd
Can’t you see that it (a police state) is a little more sophisticated and subtle than a couple of burly police men turning up at your door? Why would they need to you are just as ineffective as the sheep that would deny that such a state exists either here or in the US..

In a Police State, calling the PM a toss pot would have you banged up. I could, if I so wished, walk right up to Mr Brown and call him a toss pot. Nothing would happen to me.

Only a few years ago, someone threw an egg at the Deputy PM and got into a fight with him. He wasn't shot at dawn, just charged with common assault and fined. Someone else threw powder at the PM, again, they just got a ticking off.

If it was a Police State, they would be in some gulag somewhere, or worse.

Originally posted by mlmijyd
For goodness sake mate, you and I subsidise a bloody Royal family to boot!!!!

Actually, only £12 million goes towards maintaining the Royal Household, much of which is travel expenses for when they represent the country and maintaining the palaces, which do not belong to the Queen. We actually spend a heck of alot more on MP's "expenses" (new wallpaper for their offices and second homes in London, not to mention their inflated salaries and chauffeur driven cars ) than the Royal family.

Assuming you are a taxpayer, only about a pound a year of your money would ever be directed at the Queen. She mostly supports herself with her own money. The actual net benefit of having them is huge. they generate hundreds of milions in tourism alone, not to mention the business deals they help seal with overseas visits

A common misconception, yours.

I'm sure it's been said but it's worth repeating :

The UK is the most surveyed society on the face of the entire earth. For your protection of course. How's that working out by the way ? When the cops (military, whatever) executed that guy in the tube what was it that they claimed ? Oh that's right, that all the cctv cameras weren't working.

Who will watch the watchers ?

Cheers.

Discomfit, your linked article is from 2002

Its 2007.

How about some more relevant stats if you are trying to make a point?

North Korea, China, Communist East Germany, The Soviet Union. They either are or were Police States.

The UK is not one. Plain and simple.

So now that you have ‘said all that’.... lets see you challenge and indeed change the fact that we just have inherited Mr. Brown, or no don’t pay tens of billions every year for the oxymoron that is the ‘Health Service’ and immigration is a direct result of having a ruling party that has not the consensus of the people in this country,,,, but hey Mr. non-Police state lets see you a) Actually speak out about it and not get called Racist and b) Again, actually change it by ???????

ok....i'll....i'll vote for someone else! Like i have done for the past god knows how many years but such is the process of democracy, i vote, you vote, Fred votes and the party with the most votes becomes the govt. Just because i don't vote labour doesn't mean that labour shouldn't be in govt.....

I could quite easily say that the methods of border control in the UK are not adequate for the number of people coming into this country to my local MP and i doubt that i would be called racist, he may even agree. I think it has become imperative for the govt to act. Which i think Big Gord already has.....

Unified Border Force

Plus there are plenty of sources that will criticise the govt in the media...imagine John Snow () / Jeremy Paxman in a police state! lol!

I remember when prezzie got an egg in the face ha ha....fair play to him for fighting back though. If someone threw an egg in my face i'd do exactly the same.....

Egg in your face, egg in your face

UK a Police State...ha ha! imagine if you threw an egg at Stalin.....GULAG! or Siberia...or perhaps shot on site.

I do understand what some people are trying to say but having more (private) surveillance does not equate to a police state. Its simply a sad sign of the times in this country.

The United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is by far not a Police State.

Originally posted by Who Dares Wins
The United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is by far not a Police State.

But the infrastructure to run one efficiently with inter-linked database and surveillance technology is well on it's way to do so..

Originally posted by stumason
Andy1033, if you were British, you probably wouldn't refer to those in the UK as English, unless specifically speaking about English people. Seeing as the topic is about the UK. that premise is out the window..

Also, you speak about them in the 3rd person, which to me says you are not, but are instead some Johnny Foreigner type spouting rubbish.

Who are you exactly and why the need to talk out of your bottom?

Imagine that someone that is white and born in london in 1975, who has there life wrecked by the police state that is england. I have every right to speak out about the stuff that is going on. I am not a johnny foreigner, i just had the misfortune of talking to people that abused a sytem that exists in england to destroy my life.

I would never call myself english or british, but my details would be seen as that. What is going on is beyond belief sometimes, and how they get away with what they do. Oh yep, police are only human(that was used in nazi trials years ago, just doing my job). The police knew all too well that i never did anything, they just took people made up fantasies and labeled me this and that, so they could wreck my life. No one will ever be prosecuted, and to this day people can still stick to made up fantasies(whats that chinese proverb, Get three people to tell a lie and it becomes a truth).

What was done to me will be done to all the population one day, and they will not even know it. Once these geezers do it ot one person, they will know they can do it to anyone they want.

So what happened to you Andy? to make you so bitter and twisted?

Andy, if you feel that you have been 'victimised' or that an abuse of you rights has taken place, please go to the IPCC. (not the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change...)

If a complaint has been made by a member of the public, it is the job of the Police Force to investigate said complaint and to gather any evidence which would either support of refute the complaint. Once again, if you feel that this has resulted in a breach of your rights as a member of the public, the IPCC can help you to get to the bottom of the issue. Please see below as an extract from the Independant Police Complaints Commission.

You can make a complaint if you are a member of the public who:

Has been the victim of the misconduct by a person serving with the police. Misconduct could include a police officer or member of police staff being rude to you or using excessive force. It could also include unlawful arrest or an abuse of your rights. For more information please see the police code of conduct.

Hopefully they can help. Read up on them first to give you a feel for how they operate.

You know what, I'm happy to concede that we don't (normally) have police arresting people in the UK for speaking their mind (although some Anti-G8, Anti-Animal testing protesters may disagree?). My point is that the common held view of a 'Police State' is outdated (again we are so controlled that they don’t need to enforce in this mode anyway) and isn't how we are policed in the UK but we are still entirely policed, in my experience of living here.

However, it would be worth people having a look at the following linked publication
The Police State Road Map I think that it would be very easy to see both the UK and US in its findings.

You know what, I'm happy to concede that we don't (normally) have police arresting people in the UK for speaking their mind (although some Anti-G8, Anti-Animal testing protesters may disagree?). My point is that the common held view of a 'Police State' is outdated (again we are so controlled that they don’t need to enforce in this mode anyway) and isn't how we are policed in the UK but we are still entirely policed, in my experience of living here.

However, it would be worth people having a look at the following linked publication

www.policestateplanning.com...

If you define a police state as the overt suppression of liberty, then perhaps we're not there yet in the USA or UK, but all the apparatus for it is in place in both countries. The kind of behind the scenes persecution that Andy describes has been going on for a long time though, and to many thousands of people. You need only tick off the wrong person for your life to be made a living hell. It's the Stasi come to the West.

However you label it, being surveilled 24/7 is no way to live, and should be resisted with anyone with any spine at all.

Originally posted by neformore
Discomfit, your linked article is from 2002

Its 2007.

How about some more relevant stats if you are trying to make a point?

North Korea, China, Communist East Germany, The Soviet Union. They either are or were Police States.

The UK is not one. Plain and simple.

Oh ok, never mind, you said the UK isn't a police state so it must not be. Countless government run cameras watching your every move. I read just the other day that now some cops are going to get `helmet` cams. None of this of course has anything to do with a police state. The UK is entirely too friendly and polite for such rubbish.

North Korea is a militaristic dictatorship with concentration camps, hardly just a police state.

2001

The UK has more closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras than any other country in Europe - upwards of a million, with some estimating twice this number.

The BBC

Big Brother, loving you :

2007

Six cameras were installed in the city two weeks ago to enable control room staff to speak directly to those behaving anti-socially.

So far 20 people have been warned about dropping rubbish and one man has been given a £75 fixed penalty.

The cameras are on trial for six months to see if they can have an impact.

The BBC

CCTV

Originally posted by discomfit
I could go on, but I've already pretty much reached my 4000 char limit

Nah. You carry on handpicking items off the web to support your argument.

I'll carry on living here and keep laughing at the straws you choose to clutch.

Originally posted by neformore
Nah. You carry on handpicking items off the web to support your argument.

I'll carry on living here and keep laughing at the straws you choose to clutch.

Excellent rebuttals !

That part where I quoted a former anti-terrorism chief was a real reach for straws, you got me there. And the part where I used only UK based papers (mainly the BBC) was a real reacher too, I admit.

You jumped up real fast to demand I provide sources from recent history. I gave you as much info as one ATS post would allow and this is the "reply" you give me ? I have enough experience on forums to honestly say I'm not surprised at all.

One doesn't even have to look hard for the evidence. I found this on ATS.

Oh ya baby, gimme some of that non-police state freedom goodness :

Five million people in peaceful environmental organisations such as the National Trust and the RSPB have become the subject of an extraordinary legal attempt to limit their right to protest.

In legal documents seen by The Independent, the British Airports Authority has begun moves that would allow police to arrest members of 15 environmental groups to prevent them taking part in demonstrations against airport expansion.

While the threat of terrorism and consequent security checks have been dominating the headlines during the start of the summer holidays, BAA has been planning a pre-emptive strike against environmentalists.

link

Some nut bag, David Bean, Chairman of the Bar Council, in 2002 :

A senior lawyer has described recent police attacks on the state of the justice system as extreme and warned against becoming a "police state".

The BBC, AGAIN

Some rag called the "The Times Online" espoused :

When Tony Blair honoured the dead at the Cenotaph in Whitehall on Remembrance Day nobody interfered. But when a peace activist tried to do the same in virtually the same place, two police sergeants and 12 constables arrived in haste to arrest her.

When a mother said on the radio that she thought gay couples should not adopt children, the police were soon in touch. When an evangelist was physically attacked for carrying a placard denouncing homosexuality, he was the one prosecuted. And when a former No 10 spin doctor revealed that the prime minister had once blurted out “f****** Welsh”, he too found the boys in blue wanting to know more.

Some crazy rag

I was going to say "we could do this all day" but it's really just me doing the work.

Feel free to reject everything I said out of hand.

I suppose you live in the UK.

Guess what, I live in America, I don't see secret prisons in my city but guess what - I know they're real.

People get this notion in their that if something doesn't effect them it must not be real.

Originally posted by discomfit

Excellent rebuttals !

I could take my time attempting to rebut them, but what would be the point, really?

I could quote a whole load of stuff off the web about how crap it is to live in America. Off the top of my head I can recall a story about a 70 year old being arrested for having an unkempt lawn, a pensioner visited by the secret service for criticising the president, a 14 year old kid hauled out of class for something similar...I could keep repeating the stuff over and over. It would be rebuked by people who live there and I could keep on and on about it.

But it would just be examples of the worst cases, off the web, with no experience. I could paint the US out to be Dante's Inferno if I wanted to and at the end of the day, would I actually know better than the people living there?

No.

You are sitting 4000 miles away, don't live here and have made up your mind already. Nothing anyone from the UK says in this thread (and theres been lots said rebutting this "Police state" stuff, and lots of explanations already offered by people from here) is going to make a shred of difference because you THINK you know better so all I can really do is wish you well in your ignorance. Enjoy.

Originally posted by Nerevar
Andy, if you feel that you have been 'victimised' or that an abuse of you rights has taken place, please go to the IPCC.

Or, indeed, go to the papers ...... Oh, but wait, we're a police state - so all newspapers are state controlled and thus they'd never print anything criticising the govt. Likewise the TV stations......

It is worth noting that CCTV cameras across the UK are predominantly either privately owned or operated by the local authorities - which for the benefit of those that do not live here - is funded for locally by council tax.

I imagine that the central government does have some CCTV cameras for either enforcing congestion charging, traffic monitoring and for staging at important government sites.

Six cameras were installed in the city two weeks ago to enable control room staff to speak directly to those behaving anti-socially.

So far 20 people have been warned about dropping rubbish and one man has been given a £75 fixed penalty.

The cameras are on trial for six months to see if they can have an impact.

It has to be noted that anti social behavior is a major problem in the UK. If they are piloting schemes to try to curb this kind of behaviour it is long overdue. See below for info:

Title: A Guide to Anti-social Behaviour Orders and Acceptable Behaviour contracts

Number of pages: 86

Date published: November 2002

Anti-social behaviour has a wide legal definition – to paraphrase the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, it is behaviour which causes or is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more people who are not in the same household as the perpetrator. Among the forms it can take are:

graffiti – which can on its own make even the tidiest urban spaces look squalid

abusive and intimidating language, too often directed at minorities

excessive noise, particularly late at night

fouling the street with litter

drunken behaviour in the streets, and the mess it creates

dealing drugs, with all the problems to which it gives rise

Source: Home Office Crime Reduction Partnership

Originally posted by discomfit
Security guards at Welsh assembly buildings in Cardiff Bay were caught turning CCTV cameras onto nearby homes and hotels, it has emerged.

Five employees based in Cardiff Bay received "significant" disciplinary penalties for the misuse of the cameras within the last two years.

Ok, so they abused the system and were punished. How many people use the internet at work? how many of these people get punished? I'm glad you used this example.

Doesn't that illustrate that these CCTV cameras are NOT intended to be used to monitor the population and that they are in fact used to monitor place that may come under some sort of terrorist attack? Which is why the 'cyber-terrorists' were arrested. To conspire to murder people is a crime in the US isn't it? To conspire to blow things up is also a crime in most countries and it doesn't matter if you conspire over the phone, face to face or over the internet. You may not have heard about Guy Fawkes and the gunpowder plot, but were a little jumpy when people say that they are going to blow things up in the UK....especially with all of the terrorist activity in this country at the minute.

the gunpowder plot

I've reached my limit in dealing with your post, hope that satisfies you

Originally posted by mlmijyd
You know what, I'm happy to concede that we don't (normally) have police arresting people in the UK for speaking their mind (although some Anti-G8, Anti-Animal testing protesters may disagree?).

When talking about Anti-animal testing 'protesters' you need to point out what types of protest they use i.e. death threats to scientists etc. If the 'protesters' start attacking the police, they will be rightfully arrested. The police are there to monitor and ensure that it is a peaceful protest. Thats all. When talking about 'Anti-G8 protesters' it is worth noting that most of these have links to anarchist groups. They will also be arrested if the protest becomes anything more than a peaceful march...

Good day all

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by Nerevar
Andy, if you feel that you have been 'victimised' or that an abuse of you rights has taken place, please go to the IPCC.

Or, indeed, go to the papers ...... Oh, but wait, we're a police state - so all newspapers are state controlled and thus they'd never print anything criticising the govt. Likewise the TV stations......

I tried that years ago(going to the papers), never got a reply. Tried the ipcc, waste of time.

Originally posted by discomfit
People get this notion in their that if something doesn't effect them it must not be real.

Well said, its always the same. If the stuff that happened to me, did not happen, i would probably also say the uk is not a police state, but what i have been through i saw that it is, and people abuse these things.

Originally posted by neformore

Its really, really nice to know that you have such a high opinion of your own country to the extent where you think it has a hand in everything everyone across the world does.

Your crassly arrogant assumptions do, however, manage to miss out the fact that the countries you mention have their own governments and indigenous populations, all of which are perfectly capable of running themselves, and do so already, quite effectively.

True, but many of the gov's around the world are like babies to milk. The US feeds, funds, and runs a majority of nations via its support of aggression to them. NATO I could not see going on without the US as a civil war here would virtually defeat its purpose of existence. The UK is continually killing itself by denying the fact that it has internal unrest. Its like watching India's independence movement all over again only there is violence unlike Gandhi. Tell me, without the US, where would Russia get its billion dollars a year from? Who would be the major undertaker in Eastern Euro peace? Without the US pledge to support the economies and gov's of NATO an the UN, who would protect it? Europe has many times in history liked its military superiority only to find it destroyed by an external force. Huns, Barbarians, Mongolians, Russians, all have had an effect of European self defense, from civil war to invasion. Without the USA to save Europe but like WW1 and WW2, how will Europe stand up against a re-energized Russia ALONG with internal unrest from Muslim extremists? That's fighting the home front AND foreign front at the same time. Judging from the past, this never works out good. The US sends crap loads of money toe Europe and Asia to basically pay off wars from happening, or to happen. Without US money, it all goes to hell.

Every time you see Europe in trouble, something from far away helps it along. From Muslim knowledge pre Crusades to Chinese gun powder to Foreign colones to help its economy. Europe rarely pulls itself out of trouble without help from a far away land.