Scotland and the UK...

Originally posted by stumason
In an ICM poll, 52% of people didn't want a PM who's constituency was in Scotland.

that poll was from 14th May last year.

plus, support for break up of the Union and Scottish independence has gone down now.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by stumason
In an ICM poll, 52% of people didn't want a PM who's constituency was in Scotland.

that poll was from 14th May last year.

Thats irrelevant, seeing as the question was specifically about Gordon Brown, our new PM.

If you discount a poll because it is a year old, can we discount elections in the same manner? No, of course not. If the subject matter is relevant, then the statistics will be too.

Originally posted by infinite
plus, support for break up of the Union and Scottish independence has gone down now.

Good! thats not what I want. All I want is equality for England. At the moment, we are being sold short.

Wales and NI are a different kettle of fish

How can you say that welsh and N/I mp's are a different kettle of fish? They vote on the same issues that affect england also. So you are actually saying it is oks for Welsh and N/I Mp's to vote on english matters but it is not oks for Scottish Mp's not to?

Have you read about the Barnett formula or are you just here to start an argument? You don't seem to be addressing either of the points I raised in any of your posts.

You commented earlier that you are not anti Scottish, seems to me you are, also it seems to me you are targeting scotland while leaving the other home countries out. Now who is the one who is trying to start an argument?


[edit on 15-7-2007 by spencerjohnstone]

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
How can you say that welsh and N/I mp's are a different kettle of fish? They vote on the same issues that affect england also. So you are actually saying it is oks for Welsh and N/I Mp's to vote on english matters but it is not oks for Scottish Mp's not to?

You see Spencer, NI and Wales don't have their own Parliaments and are subject to many of the same laws England is, so if they are affected by a certain law being discussed, as they invariably are, then they can sit.

Scotland, on the other hand, has it's own parliament and governs itself, mostly. For Scottish MP's to sit in on, and change the outcome of votes that have nothing to do with Scotland is wrong.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
You commented earlier that you are not anti Scottish, seems to me you are, also it seems to me you are targeting scotland while leaving the other home countries out. Now who is the one who is trying to start an argument?

You sound like a Yank now that cannot address the point in hand and claims "anti-Americanism". care to address the issues or are you just going to derail th thread?

For your info, I have several members of my family who are Scottish. DW will testify that I am not anti Scottish. if you feel raising these questions is Anti Scottish, then I think you have esteem issues.

Again, care to address any of the points in this thread?

Originally posted by stumason
Thats irrelevant, seeing as the question was specifically about Gordon Brown, our new PM.

a new poll today shows 53% of the Country feel he is better equipped to be Prime Minister.

so, voters don't have a problem with a Scottish PM.

And, the Tory "English votes for English laws" idea came about back in 1999, which became a rejected policy at the 2001 general election.


[edit on 15-7-2007 by infinite]

You sound like a Yank now that cannot address the point in hand and claims "anti-Americanism". care to address the issues or are you just going to derail th thread?

Excuse me, your opening comment was anti-scottish, an another thing next time do not bother sending me a u2u. Everyhing you have posted on this thread is Anti-Scottish... And not I wont even bother commenting on the points you said you tried to so call make. You targeted on country without targetting the rest Wales, Northern Ireland. So im done with your thread..

Originally posted by stumason
You sound like a Yank now...

Thanks. Since people of other countries can't do this, too, of course.

Just to throw a slight spanner into the "whose oil rigs are they" debate...

I seem to recall that many years ago when the Scot Nats last made a big meal of independence, (we must be back in the era of Margo McDonlad's by election in Govan I guess), the Shetland Islanders pointed out that the oil fields were actually in Shetland's waters and that they wanted nothing to do with an independent Scotland but wanted to become an independent state within the EU in their own right instead.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
Excuse me, your opening comment was anti-scottish, an another thing next time do not bother sending me a u2u. Everyhing you have posted on this thread is Anti-Scottish... And not I wont even bother commenting on the points you said you tried to so call make. You targeted on country without targetting the rest Wales, Northern Ireland. So im done with your thread..

And there I was thinking you could actually add something to the debate instead of bitching and whining. Hence why I U2U'd you, for your opinion. So far, all you have done is attack me personally and haven't addressed a single point.

You haven't actually offered up any counter points to why the situation is the way it is.

Your whole premise of NI and Wales MP's is mute, as I have explained twice now, but which you seem to ignore to highlight a non-existent point and to deflect the discussion. You stooping to the level of a troll. This discussion is not about Wales, or NI, it is about Scotland.

Wales is, largely, subject to the same laws as England. Hence, why, when a law or change in legislation is announced, it is referred to as England and Wales.

They have an "assembly" with limited powers, not a parliament.

NI, up until recently, was governed directly from London.

Scotland is the only country in the Union to actually have it's own Parliament, so, by default, it is the only country in the Union to send MP's to TWO parliaments.

One of which, when it passes laws for England and Wales, still has Scottish MP's voting on those issues, even though Scotland isn't affected. In some cases, these Scottish votes have enabled Governments to impose things upon those in England and Wales that the Scots themselves have rejected!

How is that fair?

How exactly am I being anti-Scottish? Please, point this out to me.

Just because I question the whole Barnett Formula and the MP's in Westminster situation? Can you honestly say it is fair for the rest of the UK?

Honestly, if you cannot give me a reason or debate a point without getting your knickers in a twist, I don't want you commenting on this.

Originally posted by infinite
a new poll today shows 53% of the Country feel he is better equipped to be Prime Minister.

so, voters don't have a problem with a Scottish PM.

Neither do I to be honest. He seems alright. If he does half the things he says he wants to do, things could get better in this country.

Originally posted by infinite
And, the Tory "English votes for English laws" idea came about back in 1999, which became a rejected policy at the 2001 general election.

Actually, the whole idea started back in the 1970's with a Labour MP called Tam Dalyell,, but I won't quibble over dates....

Also, the Conservatives haven't dropped it. Both them , the Lib Dems and even the SNP see the problem and vote in line with English MP's on English Laws.

Well guys, I just think we'd better give the Scots what's left of their damned oil and gas and let them get on with it.

Trouble is, places like Aberdeen - where my ex hangs out - have made a fortune out of the so called oil boom. Shame to the point out though, it's about to run out!

Then what happens to the thousands employed to put the rigs together? I suppose we English will have to fund their lavish lifestyles when they sign on.

So let them keep their frigging oil or gas. Don't need it anyway, not with my footy team's boss' mate in his back pocket.

Originally posted by stumason
Now, is it any wonder that in Scotland they can have free University places, free prescriptions and whatever else they get (happens in Wales too), whilst in England we are expected to pay TOP UP FEES (despite a previous manifesto pledge not to introduce them.....) for University and increasing costs for prescriptions.

For what it's worth, I think English students get more generous grants and bursaries (and a greater proportion of students are eligible for this money) than people who study in Scotland.

Originally posted by stumasonBut on the other hand, Scotland wants autonomy.

Well, the SNP does. Whether Scotland as a whole does is very debatable... the majority of votes and seats in the Scottish Parliament went to parties which support the Union, remember?

Originally posted by stumasonI just find the blatant hypocrisy sickening, to be honest. The SNP bang on about how great Scotland is, with it's free this and that, but it's being paid for by England!

And that's exactly how the SNP want the English to think. I bet they've been rubbing their little hands with glee at those polls carried out by the Telegraph earlier this year that showed a great deal of dissatisfaction amongst English people over the position of Scotland in the Union.

Alex Salmond and his chums are very clever people, for they have realised that to destroy the union all they have to do is manipulate the population of the largest Home Nation - England. Scots might be very unsure about independence, but the SNP know that if they can upset the English enough by making Scotland seem like the land of milk and honey compared to England, then Scotland may end up being strong-armed into independence by the English because they perceive it as 'unfair'. It's a very clever but very dirty tactic. It's just a shame that so many English people have fallen for it.

How do we solve the situation? An English Parliament isn't the answer. England is too big to be effectively governed by a single devolved parliament - it won't be effective since it can't deal with the big discrepancies between, for example, north and south (the North of England needs a vastly different strategy of local government to the South - take into account population differences, economic differences and so on). Thus, I can see only two ways out of this:

1) England stops grumbling, realises it has an absolute supermajority of votes in the UK Parliament (literally... only approximately one seat for every six goes to Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland) and makes do with being the senior partner by far.

2) A series of regional parliaments/assemblies are set up, splitting England up into regions covering about the same number of people as the Scottish Parliament does. It might not massage the egos of English nationalists, but that's not the important thing - it means that power is brought closer to people and allows regions to work on things in their own way, with the central UK Parliament controlling the economy, taxes, defence, foreign affairs, central education policies and so forth.

Give Sctoland independence if it's what the majority truely want. I can't say I'm overwhelmed by the amount of English people who are clamouring for this myself seems to me more a case of bait and switch on the part of Scottish Nationalists. I think dissolving the Union is a bad idea, and I don't think scenearios involving civil war are so very implausibale, at least at some point down the line.

Interestingly it's only been quite recently that the English voice has been added to this debate after years of sniping from certains sections of Scotland (I'll reiterate SOME not all) who seem intent on bearing some puerile grudge and investing in the kind of bigotry and racism that would be flat out condemned if it was against anyone else other than that old scapegoat middle England. And if that's not anti English then it's no more anti Scottish to raise concerns about seeming concerns we have about the balance of power regarding how England is governed too.

Some of the responses are sounding a little to scripted by Mel Gibson at his woad covered best.

Have to agree with ubermunche about Mel Gibson, but there is a much better quote from Braveheart.

Patric McGoohan says to his generals (in a slightly shakey, high-pitched falsetto) 'The trouble with Scotland, is that it's full of Scotts!'

I doubt that very much, because they're all in England, in the House of Commons, voting on English legislation!