Soldier shoots himself to avoid Iraq

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Idiot, definitely. Coward, probably. Victim? Of his own idiocy or cowardice.

To be fair, the individual might be very intelligent and extremely brave under fire, but his act was criminal and indefensible.

If he has PTSD or a related stress disorder, then there is help available. The military is more open to stress related disorders than ever before.

But, in the end, there is no justification for what he did short of Brief Reactive Psychosis, but from the information available in the interview, this was not the case.

Legally, he is a malingerer, nothing more, nothing less.


[edit on 2007/7/13 by GradyPhilpott]

Grady mindsets like yours is what keeps America corrupt. The idea we should simply lay down our lives becuase the country asked us to, is foolish.

Let me ask you this, why should a young man of 24 or 25, in good health with his whole life ahead of him..march into Iraq? Honestly how is he "helping his country"? What does dying in some sand ridden country, surrounded by a bunch of korans doing for people in america? Sorry we can't hold Iraqs hand forever. If we leave and the entire country breaks out in civil war, it's NOT our problem. Iraq is not America.

Furthermore, what will he get for risking his life? He'll come home to the same corrupt country that won't even review simple polices like stem cell research. Why die for a country that is insistant on being ignorant?

Just because our leaders say we shouhld fight a war, doesn't mean that we should. The truth is that most americans lost interest in the war, and could car less about iraq, or iraqis. So what valid reason should he have for going to war? He's not a coward in fact he's actually a hero. he risked permenent disability and even death, all so that he wouldn't waste his life in an unjust war.

The government doesn't care about the USA citizens. It's about making money and advancing their own agendas. The problem with the USA is that we are still stuck mentally in a way we were back in the 50's. People are still following orders because the guy before them said they should it. And people are still preaching that type of ignorance to their kids.

We need to stop this mindset that we must follow the rules and polices, just because those before us said they were just. Any civilized society must constantly reevaluate their laws and modify them to progress.

We also need to teach people to think for themselves. Even if the powers that be are pusing us to war, that doesn't mean we should march without question. If something seems morally wrong, then it is a persons duty to stand up against that.

A 6 year long war has done nothing for the average american citizen. In fact it's hurt us more than helped us. It's drove our gas prices up, cause virtually every market in the nation to experience inflation, given us a bad reputation worldwide, and also caused a great lapse in trust of the government, and overall morale.

So no this guy should not have to fight if he doesn't want to. Even the republicans are finally started to come around and have relized the war in iraq is wrong..or at the very least, unwinable. They are pushing for a withdrawl by next summer. Guess who said he's gonna Veto the Bill? When you have a leader in power, that literally only cares about himself and his personal agenda, i see no reason to ask a young able bodied man to throw himself away for that type of greed.

Serving your country is a great concept, but only a fool would blindly follow someone, who doesn't quite seem to be able to admit their mistakes. Only a fool would risk throwing his life away for a war that his own people dont' even support.

Do you relize that this is one of the most unpopular wars in history? It's even getting less popular than vietnam. The funniest thing is that we learned nothing from vietnam. WE obviously didn't learn that we just need to stay out of foreign countries, that do not oppose an imediate threat to us.

Morale and support for a war has never been this low in USA history. Bush's approval rating is pitifully low. The only person that seems hell bent on finishing it, is Bush. His own party thinks it's time to leave iraq, and the democrats have wanted out for years.

I am just glad they are trying to end the war before there is a draft, unless we are being seriously threated by a country i will never fight for the USA. Nobody will send me to die in some sand dunes.

Ultimatley this soljder made a good choice. He chose to pull hisself out the matrix so to speak, and made it clear he won't serve a system that stopped serving him long ago.

This soldjier is a victim, and a hero.

You have to feel so sorry for our soldiers who are having to do their tours in both of these illegal wars.

Sure they have signed up Grady and have to do as told,and its something that they would have known right from basic training.Trouble is a lot of them sign the dotted lines as they cant do anything else,and the military becomes the family that needs them rather than the family that ignores them.
Sure there are military familes out there spanning many generations but i have a feeling that a fair chunk of both our armies are poorly neglected social outcasts who are swapping families.

These poor people are being asked to die in this ponitless and bloody conflict that is based on a lie.I ask any of you who support this war to be a man,do the decent thing and join the armed forces and serve your country so we can bring back our boys who have been lied too!

The heroic chest pounding and tunnel vision of the armchair warriors who hide behind the safety of the net with faceless accounts is amusing to watch but tires after a while.

So come lads,if your in the right age bracket and agree with the reasons for this conflict please do us all a favour by joining/rejoinng.That way our boys can come back,you take their place and the net will suddenly become less false than it has in recent years!

On a side note can the arabs out there stop targetting civilions around the world!The IRA lost a lot of support in the 70's when they targeted normal people.Your conflict is with the warmongers,just because some muppets here voted them into office isnt good enough to target us.So go for legit targets related to the war machine,and you will slowly kick these liars out of your countries

this was in response to a previous post...but well, for some reason the wrong quote posted??

he didn't need to see it all over the news...he has experienced it firsthand...he already served time in Iraq or maybe even a few tours.....he didn't want to serve ANOTHER ONE!!! how many times has some of these people been sent into that chaos?? they've already missed their baby's births, their birthdays, their anniversaries, holidays, ect. ect....they've already sacrificed all those things and for many alot of their sanity. tell me what have you sacrificed for the war effort? or are you just gleefully watching you stock portfolio grow from the effort?

it's simple, if we can't fight the war without having to stretch the men's tours over there to illegal levels....then it is time to increase the size of the forces...and yes pay for that increase. heck pay for a draft if that is what is necessary. and while we're at it, pay for them to have their equipment provided to them, and repaired when needed. some better leadership on the top levels would probably do wonders also.

but, if we can't at least do this, then maybe we need to just bring them home! I mean why ruin completely good troops in a war we obviously don't intend winning!

[edit on 14-7-2007 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Let me ask you this, why should a young man of 24 or 25, in good health with his whole life ahead of him..march into Iraq? Honestly how is he "helping his country"? What does dying in some sand ridden country, surrounded by a bunch of korans doing for people in america? Sorry we can't hold Iraqs hand forever. If we leave and the entire country breaks out in civil war, it's NOT our problem. Iraq is not America.

just to point out Iraq is your countries problem
due to the fact that by invading the country the US has crippled it and sent it into sexterian violance.

so in many ways its the US's problem and the US is obliged to fix what it has started.

as the saying goes dont break something unless you can fix it
or was it break it you buy it

also what do you mean by surrounded by a bunch of korans doing for people
doesnt make sense

[edit on 14-7-2007 by bodrul]

not nit picking or anything, but well, we had a few freinds along for the ride when we invaded...I believe Great Britain was one...

if the purpose was to get rid of the wmd's, well, we are now the owner of the majority of the wmd's in Iraq....seems to me, by pulling out and taking our toys with us would do wonders for accomplishing that goal..

if the purpose was to liberate Iraq from the Saddam regime, we've accomplished that.

if the purpose was to bring freedom to the Iraqi people, well, think we've done that one too, the people seem to be free to kill each other off quite efficiently.

all these people managed to live next door to each other in peace while Saddam was in charge, why can't they now? My guess is they were probably too afraid to do much of anything that wasn't 100% endorsed by Saddam.
My guess is that we would either have to bring in enough troops to instill the kind of fear that Saddam provoked in the people and go a little slower on this freedom bit, or just step back a little. try to take as much of the outside influence (like al quada) out of the picture as we can, and let the Iraqis find their own way, which would probably mean a short term blood bath for them while the different groups contested each other for power .

i guess desperate situations call for desperate acts.

but as far as admitting the plot publicly...that puts him in the dumb-&-dumber section. That blunder is unforgivable.

? now what drove him to that desperate act?
Was it that the Tours-of-Duty had changed? that the length of stay and the Rotation dates were changed?
to his and others' detriment?
? Sure he signed up, but the rules & the contract kept changing,

so that it would be a miracle to get outta that kill-zone un-injured...

it may seem to him and others that the administration is changing the game ... And ... "Stacking The Deck"

Originally posted by St Udio
? Sure he signed up, but the rules & the contract kept changing,

so that it would be a miracle to get outta that kill-zone un-injured...

it may seem to him and others that the administration is changing the game ... And ... "Stacking The Deck"

Bingo, that is the key to all this outrage against the military and government.

This profiteers of war are having the government play with the rules of the game.

And then expect the soldiers to abide by any new rules and be happy.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Idiot, definitely. Coward, probably. Victim? Of his own idiocy or cowardice.

To be fair, the individual might be very intelligent and extremely brave under fire, but his act was criminal and indefensible.

If he has PTSD or a related stress disorder, then there is help available. The military is more open to stress related disorders than ever before.

But, in the end, there is no justification for what he did short of Brief Reactive Psychosis, but from the information available in the interview, this was not the case.

Legally, he is a malingerer, nothing more, nothing less.


[edit on 2007/7/13 by GradyPhilpott]

I don't think this poor soldier did the right thing or approached it the right way.

But In combat, the fear grows everyday, and gets to the point where you can barely breathe. Seeing these young men and children in some cases scream for their mother while they die can really F__ck a person up for life and some will never be the same. Some of us come home and begin to live normal lives but these memories start to fester and get just as bad or if not worse.

I have to laugh about there being services for our soldiers who face mental problems. The only time i have seen some sort of counseling was for drug and alcohol abuse. I have seen soldiers who have had problems and attempted to get help and was black listed and labeled cowards. I have even seen Chaplin’s slam a young soldier for seeking help with his fears and problems. The Chaplin said he wasn't being a good soldier; That Chaplin was a real good man of god, what a joke.

And for the poor soldiers who serve their time and make it home. Their marriages fall to pieces, they can't find jobs, and they push their families away. They find some courage to get help and they go to the VA and face a whole new battle and they lose this battle in many cases.

I also blame the military for preying on these young people at 16, 17, 18 years old. They make it look so cool and fun and you get over $50,000 for college. The military even run adds to convince parents to allow their children to enlist early. The National Guard has a program where during a HS junior’s summer break they can go to boot camp, and then the next summer they get AIT, I think we are pushing it a little to far. I love when I take my Kids to the mall during the summer and I see the recruiters working the food court, Arcade, and Movie Theater. Maybe if some of these recruiters’ would leave these kids alone and let them grow up a little they would not be shooting themselves or getting a friend to shoot them.

I think we all should serve our country, but not everyone is cut out for the Military. People serve their country by paying taxes, following the laws, serving their communities, providing jobs for other people, we all don't need to serve in the military.

Yes when you sign on the lign you are agreeing to follow the rules. Some just don't have enough to information to sign on that line, there is far to much deception when enlisting people into the military.

my 2 cents.

i will be the odd man out and say i applaud him and i think he is a victim.
yeah, he enlisted and all that. ok. he went to iraq. ok
we don't know what kind of horrors he saw. was he almost killed?
sure, that is a risk but off paper, out here in the real world, people handle things differently.
maybe the time in iraq ans seeing what he has seen has caused him to rethink his life and rethink the fact that he wants to be at home with his woman.
maybe he has rethought fighting in this illegal war.

maybe, people/'they' should be looking at the fact that something is seriously wrong if a soldier is willing to take a shot in the lg to get out.

in the end, good for him. the faster our people get out of there, the better

spawwn and jase, good posts guys.

they do make it look glorious. i see commercials all the time that talk about cash and school and computers...where is the real stuff.
my younger brother was recruited into the marines out of highschool. he went into an early enlistment before he was even 18.

why do recruiters go to our schools to talk to our children who are not adults yet? is that needed?

if you lived around here you would notice that at our mall, the 'dirt mall' there are recruiters there every day....literally.
now, travel 20 minutes east to westlake or one of them hitter areas and hit their mall. you won't see a recruiter, ever.
why?
they go to th epoor/lower class areas and they friggin prey on our young people.
damn straight

Originally posted by Spawwwn
(post is huge)

No, mindsets like that are called honor. "Keeping your word." He shouldn't have enlisted. The reasons you've given are powerful and motivating ones - for someone deciding whether or not to join. But it was too late; he had already signed an agreement to serve for x amount of years. He was called on his promise.

All he did was manipulate the system to get out of it. Some hero.

[edit on 14-7-2007 by Johnmike]

Since this man voluntarily enlisted then I feel no sympathy for him ... as a matter of fact I was his CO I would shoot him on grounds of cowardice and desertion in face of the enemy.

I really dont get all these people who join the military and then cut and run when it comes time for war, what is it that these idiots think the military does? Sit around and do nothing all day? Anyone who signs that line (even after being told that signing that line may result in your going to a combat zone) and then refuses to go to the said combat zone or deployment is an idiot and a coward and deserves nothing less then a long stay at the US Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, KS followed by a dishonorable discharge.

I would not blame this young man for not wanting to fight a war to make Bush's friends and supporters rich beyond their wildest dreams. And that is exactly what it is. If it weren't the president of Halliburton would not be over 100 million dollars richer. War profiteering like that was not tolerated in WW2. Contractors were as patriotic then as the men they were supplying to fight. Imagine how much more equipment the men would have if contractors were not allowed excess profiteering, imagine how much more armor, bulletproof vests, hot meals and showers the excess profiteering would buy. Imagine how much better life would be for young men like this who are facing death daily. Some people are not made to be cannon fodder and figure it out too late. I hope this young man finds his peace and is allowed to leave the military without penalty.

I am sure most soldiers signed up to DEFEND their country not to fight a stupid pointless war in a country that posed no threat to their own



[edit on 14-7-2007 by PlayeR87]

This guy is a victim. There will be other factors, but primarily he is a victim of a war that is should not of been fighting. Were the Iraqis threting him, his border, his or his families/friends safety? (before he flew over)

Nope.

It's all well and good thinking about other peoples situations, but you always have to think about #1 first. I feel this man was duped like many others.

Personally I would of started talking to the TV and running away from kittens instead of shooting my self in the foot, but I will never be in the armed forces for eye sight reasons any way - so my comments are not worth as much as anyone’s whose been in his situation.

why do recruiters go to our schools to talk to our children who are not adults yet? is that needed?

You can thank the "no child left behind" law for that. It was designed to give the names of all high school juniors and seniors to military recruiters. The rest of the law was camouflage.

Do an internet search for "self inflicted wounds" and name a war. You'll find this behavior has happened throughout the ages and wars.

True, there are ways to leave the military, so self-inflicted wounds could be similar to killing one's spouse instead of asking for a divorce. OTOH, was it due to "battle fatigue", "combat fatigue", "shell shock", "traumatic stress", again the names change throughout history.
Many times, even though the punishment is usually death, the soldier receives prison time.

Originally posted by Now_Then
This guy is a victim. There will be other factors, but primarily he is a victim of a war that is should not of been fighting. Were the Iraqis threting him, his border, his or his families/friends safety? (before he flew over)

Cry me a river. He signed up, he got paid. Was he drafted? No. He volunteered.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Now_Then
This guy is a victim. There will be other factors, but primarily he is a victim of a war that is should not of been fighting. Were the Iraqis threting him, his border, his or his families/friends safety? (before he flew over)

Cry me a river. He signed up, he got paid. Was he drafted? No. He volunteered.

How do you get minus points?

The individual here is just illustrate of a bigger picture, as others have posted why do they recruit in schools? By your logic they should find the recruitment office themselves.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Since this man voluntarily enlisted then I feel no sympathy for him ... as a matter of fact I was his CO I would shoot him on grounds of cowardice and desertion in face of the enemy.

I really dont get all these people who join the military and then cut and run when it comes time for war, what is it that these idiots think the military does? Sit around and do nothing all day? Anyone who signs that line (even after being told that signing that line may result in your going to a combat zone) and then refuses to go to the said combat zone or deployment is an idiot and a coward and deserves nothing less then a long stay at the US Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, KS followed by a dishonorable discharge.

Wow, you would shoot him that is just crazy.

First what happened to due process? And Soldiers are allowed to refuse unlawful orders so I suggest you should get more background on the matter before you go pulling the trigger.

Also a good Officers and NCOs should be able to motivate their troops and if they are having trouble motivating their troops then they should look for the root of the problem. NCOs’ and Officer become parents to these young soldiers and they have to completely care for these soldiers, mind, body, and soul.

So if this is the case then if your kids don’t listen to your orders then they should be shot.

I think it is sad that our military is serving repeated tours of combat.

Sometimes the military does just sit around and do nothing. I can remeber many a days watching porn and eating fast food with my platoon.

If we look at history we can see that success in this conflict is a pipe dream. So let’s be good American’s and Citizens of the world and hold our governments accountable and bring our children, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends home.

Or let’s commit to total war a finish this. Screw this low intensity conflict stuff, let us pound them all into submission. Kill every man, woman, and child who opposes us and our views, they do not deserve to make a choice for their own destiny. Wow that sounds scary; maybe I could be wrong with this total war thing.

I struggle to find I good example of a just war.