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Colorado Farmers Turn to Prisoners to Do Work of Illegal Immigrants

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posted on Jul, 13 2007 @ 08:37 PM
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Colorado Farmers Turn to Prisoners to Do Work of Illegal Immigrants


www.foxnews.com

AVONDALE, Colo. — For generations, farmers in southern Colorado have depended on immigrant labor to work their fields.

But the new immigration laws in Colorado are some of the toughest in the nation, and now illegal immigrants are hesitant to come to the Centennial State.

Farmers say only half the normal number of migrant workers appeared this year, going instead to states like New Mexico and Arizona, where the laws are not so strict.

But the soil in Colorado still has to be tilled, and the seeds have to be planted, and somebody has to be in the fields to harvest the crops so that the onions, peppers and melons don't rot in the ground.

So the state came up with a plan to replace the illegal immigrants with workers from a different kind of home: inmates from colorado's overcrowded prison system.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Jul, 13 2007 @ 08:37 PM
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This illustrates the positive effects of strict immigration laws. The efforts of politicians such as Tom Tancredo are paying off in Colorado. Other states, especially the border states, should take note of Colorado's success, and follow suit.

www.foxnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 05:55 AM
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The big problem there is that, overall, the illegal immigration problem will still increase as long as any State doesn't get stricter with the laws. As the article said, all they're doing is going elsewhere...Every State would have to get tough so that the illegals don't have anywhere else to go.

I'd have to agree that this is a step in the right direction though...Remove the incentive for aliens enter the country illegally. Since the Executive Branch (the White House, specifically) refuses to perform its Constitutionally-designated Duty to "faithfully execute the laws" then it's up to the States. As long as State-level law enforcement is NOT a Constitutional Power denied to the States, then the States can get stricter than Federal Law, but States aren't allowed to get any more lax than Federal Law.

The Executive's main failure of law enforcement is that the Feds are actually more lax than the Law.

If the States fail in their duty, then it's up to The People...Clearly written in the Bill of Rights:

Source: US Constitution, Amendment 10

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The only thing that's not clearly stated in the 10th Amendment is that, since Immigration Law Enforcement is designated for the Feds, where does that responsibiilty fall if the States fail too? It makes me think that the Founding Forefathers never thought to specify much about the Peoples' Powers (of Law Enforcement) should the Feds refuse to perform their Duties...


Even according to subsequent legislation, The People still have the ability to perform Citizen's Arrest! If People would get up off their lazy keisters & start arresting illegal immigrants we could solve the problem in no time. However, Citizen's in each State would do well to bone up on the laws in their own State first; State Laws covering Citizen's Arrest do vary somewhat.

Citizens would have to learn & understand what procedures & what limitations (on use of force & what crimes would be subject to Citizens' Arrest) would be allowed.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 08:46 AM
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Emigration should work for the US and not the other way round. Legal emigrants should only be an option if there aren't enough locals around to fill labour shortages.
BTW why should the inmates get paid for the work they do after all the tax payer is already paying for the cell they sleep in ?



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
The big problem there is that, overall, the illegal immigration problem will still increase as long as any State doesn't get stricter with the laws. As the article said, all they're doing is going elsewhere...Every State would have to get tough so that the illegals don't have anywhere else to go.

Very true; it will take a joint effort of all the affected states to make this work. But this is a good first step.

Btw, I'm glad that you emphasized illegal in your post.
Too often, threads like this one get misinterpreted as being against all immigrants.



Originally posted by xpert11
Emigration should work for the US and not the other way round. Legal emigrants should only be an option if there aren't enough locals around to fill labour shortages.
BTW why should the inmates get paid for the work they do after all the tax payer is already paying for the cell they sleep in ?

I don't have a problem with paying them. It provides an incentive to them, and helps the states to defray the costs.

PS: emigrate means to leave one's country. Immigrate means to enter another country.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 09:31 AM
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Thanks for that those kind of mistakes just show that an spell checker isnt perfect. I will leave the issue of inmates earning an wage for another thread.
There is no point in invading Iraq and Afghanistan if corporate and agricultural interests come before that of national security and the general interests of the American people.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 02:02 PM
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Well lets see how the local economies hold up to this idea. Since these inmates obviously won't be going into the surrounding towns to spend their earnings Im sure its going to have a negative affect on the local economies. I also believe that as more illegal immigrants are replaced by prisoners that since this is a way for the state to profit on cheap laborers there will probably be more arrests for minor offenses to keep up the work force. The prisoners unlike migrant workers/illegal immigrants will be released sooner or later and not return the next season to help the farmers.

I wonder why in the world they don't have a line out the door for job applicants from regular average joe citizen/citizenette?


IMHO this is hardly a solution. They are biting their nose to spite their face.
Convicts will not be renting apartments, they wont be going grocery shopping, buying food, buying gas, buying alchohol, buying furniture, or buying clothes from any local retailers. No utility companies will be charging them for electricty,cable TV, cell phones. No sales tax will be collected. No Gas taxes, no cigarette taxes, no utility or cellular/landline taxes. On top of that, any increases in wage costs to the farmer will be passed on to the consumer somewhere down the line.

The very same people who just had the decrease in income from the loss of immigrants contributing to the local economies will get this extra money to pay for the food the farmer is making from where?



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 02:15 PM
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I don't see a problem with this as a short term solution. I disagree that it hurts the local economy more than Illegal Workers, they send most of their earnings back to mexico and don't spend it in town either. I don't think that 13.60 a hour per person is Cheap Labor, its a pretty good wage actually. I think that if it's some people caught witha bag of pot, or some other victimless crime they should be given a chance to make more money than they can in prison. I think having them there is probably wrong to begin with but thats for another thread. This gives those inmates time out of the prison and a little money when they get out so hopefully they wont have to immediately resort to crime to live. It may also give them a trade for a time, I know farm work is hard and not the norm for an American, as they oft tell us jobs Americans wont do, but it would be something that these inmates could possibly do after getting out of jail as a job, or a a fill in in the seasons. Either way I fail to see a downside to this temporary solution. Americans are working instead of illegals, the farmers are paying for the labor and the costs of the labor so it's not slave labor. I would bet that inside the prisons people hope to get on these crews when they can.

I would only agree that this could lead to slave labor, bigger jail populations and all the other pitfalls if it was a permanent source of labor. I live in Colorado and I didn't know this was going on til this thread...



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 06:05 PM
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theindependentjournal

Your responses to pieman's issues brought out some excellent points. For example: money being returned to the local economies. As you pointed out, right now, it gets sent to Mexico, so at least it's staying in the US.



In addition to that,

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

On top of that, any increases in wage costs to the farmer will be passed on to the consumer somewhere down the line.

C'mon, pieman, costs are always passed on to the consumer. How is this different?



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I wonder why in the world they don't have a line out the door for job applicants from regular average joe citizen/citizenette?

Well, the number of farmers that want to participate has doubled. Does that count?




Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Convicts will not be renting apartments, they wont be going grocery shopping, buying food, buying gas, buying alchohol, buying furniture, or buying clothes from any local retailers. No utility companies will be charging them for electricty,cable TV, cell phones. No sales tax will be collected. No Gas taxes, no cigarette taxes, no utility or cellular/landline taxes.

This program may very well prove to be rehabilitative for many prisoners. Thus, it is likely that recidivism rates will drop, and they will end up renting apartments, etc.




Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The very same people who just had the decrease in income from the loss of immigrants contributing to the local economies will get this extra money to pay for the food the farmer is making from where?

It will be returned to them in the form of lower overall social costs, such as taxes to fund the additional civil servants needed to handle the illegals, lower taxes, better use of our medical and educational resources, etc.

Imo, this is a win-win situation for the farmers and the prisoners, and society in general. The only losers are the illegals.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
theindependentjournal

Your responses to pieman's issues brought out some excellent points. For example: money being returned to the local economies. As you pointed out, right now, it gets sent to Mexico, so at least it's staying in the US.





He said that they sent all their money out. Ive read that 90% of their money stays here. So I beg to differ on that. Its impossible they are not spending money here. Why else would banks and mortgage companies be targeting the illegal alien market for credit cards and home loans. They know exactly what they spend here.



Well, the number of farmers that want to participate has doubled. Does that count?

OK so what then when they run out of prisoners eligible for this program?





This program may very well prove to be rehabilitative for many prisoners. Thus, it is likely that recidivism rates will drop, and they will end up renting apartments, etc.

Why? Do you think they will want to stay there and work on the farms making a few dollars a day?




Imo, this is a win-win situation for the farmers and the prisoners, and society in general. The only losers are the illegals.


I guess you will find out when you will have to pay extra for that ear of corn. It will come out of your pocket one way or the other. Nothing comes for nothing. Its a domino effect. Gas goes up and so does everything else. Labor costs go up and so will everything associated with it. Including the need for more pay to cover the extra expenses. Companies will fold because they can't handle the raises the employees need or they will outsource backoffice jobs to India or Pakistan. Maybe you will end up working on that farm instead of illegals. You guys keep thinking the illegals are a threat. The only threat is outsourcing. The illegals are keeping our costs down and keeping us competitive with outside sources/countries. Like when The USA was building itself and expanding using immigrants as cheap labor, we in a new competition with China, India, Russia, Japan and the EU are in need of a cheaper labor force that resides in this country. Not only will you see household goods marked made in china, you will see Orange Juice from Chile, steaks butchered in mexico, tomatoes picked and grown from Brazil. Watch and see what happens when they run out of cheap places to obtain labor from like prisons in this article.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
He said that they sent all their money out. Ive read that 90% of their money stays here. So I beg to differ on that. Its impossible they are not spending money here. Why else would banks and mortgage companies be targeting the illegal alien market for credit cards and home loans. They know exactly what they spend here.

Of course they have to spend some money here, but I doubt it is 90% of what they earn.

I have found that providing a supporting link helps the discussion:

Since January 2006, illegal aliens transferred about $32 billion in American money to Mexico by wire. Some additional amount was transferred in other ways. So probably the looting rate is about $25 billion per year at present.

www.mytend.com...

Another source I read puts the number of wire transfers from the US to Mexico at between $15 and $20 billion.

Using your figure of 90% of the money staying in the US, that would make the underground economy worth $200 billion!

That's a lot of money!!



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
OK so what then when they run out of prisoners eligible for this program?

What makes you think that will happen? Pure hype, imo.




Originally posted by jsobecky
This program may very well prove to be rehabilitative for many prisoners. Thus, it is likely that recidivism rates will drop, and they will end up renting apartments, etc.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Why? Do you think they will want to stay there and work on the farms making a few dollars a day?

It's not the money, you know better than that. It's the work ethic that they learn.



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I guess you will find out when you will have to pay extra for that ear of corn.

I wish I could have posted your entire Armageddon scene, but it would have been edited out as excessive quoting.

I don't mind paying a little extra for an ear of corn. I am still amazed every time I walk into an American supermarket. So much fresh food, so many choices, such absolutely reasonable prices, it boggles my mind. What we end up throwing out could feed an entire third world nation, it seems!

Your dire outlook at what would happen without illegal immigrants is pure hyperbole, pieman. If cheap labor were the sole key to world economic domination, then why is it that all the cheap labor is in underdeveloped third world countries?



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Of course they have to spend some money here, but I doubt it is 90% of what they earn.


so does the average american get to sock away more then 20% of their earnings every month into savings by the time the end of the month rolls around? So these Illegal immigrants must be making a lot of dough that they can send so much of their earnings back. I wonder what these financial geniuses are doing here and why it is they need money when they are such wizards at finance. If they are even sending home more then 10% Id be surprised.




What makes you think that will happen? Pure hype, imo.

well what makes you think it wont happen? Crime rate drop maybe? If all the illegal aliens are gone,supposedly these people are the core to crime
then who will be left in jails?




I don't mind paying a little extra for an ear of corn. I am still amazed every time I walk into an American supermarket. So much fresh food, so many choices, such absolutely reasonable prices, it boggles my mind. What we end up throwing out could feed an entire third world nation, it seems!

Its not just going to be an ear of corn that was just an example. What about products with corn syrup? Corn oil? canned corn? Farms = all kinds of vegetables. Corn for feeding cows? If feed is more, so will the beef and the milk be more. Its all domino effect. You are looking at it simplistically. Look into the future some more.




Your dire outlook at what would happen without illegal immigrants is pure hyperbole, pieman. If cheap labor were the sole key to world economic domination, then why is it that all the cheap labor is in underdeveloped third world countries?


Please just look at China, India and Pakistan. Who is the worlds richest man right now? Mexican telecom owner. Look at Dell computers. Everything made in China, a big majority of their staff is in India. Microsoft...india, AOL...India. All these people losing their jobs to these outsourcing will pay extra for that ear of corn you dont mind paying extra for How? We need to wise up. Its not hyperbole. This subject is only something to take your mind off Iraq right now and is being fueled by racism. It will only hurt this country in the long run. You would rather pay a few cents more for corn then see Illegal immigrants make a living to pay for their American childrens needs? Yes the parents are illegals but their children born on this soil are the Americans of the future.



[edit: fixed quote tags]

[edit on 14-7-2007 by 12m8keall2c]



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
well what makes you think it wont happen? Crime rate drop maybe? If all the illegal aliens are gone,supposedly these people are the core to crime
then who will be left in jails?

Thanks for pointing out that additional benefit to us..the decrease in the crime rate.

Our prisons are overcrowded as it is; I don't think we'll have any problem staffing the farms.

And we're talking small farms, anyway. The large concerns are mainly automated; corn harvesting is done with huge machines, not humans.



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Its not just going to be an ear of corn that was just an example. What about products with corn syrup? Corn oil? canned corn? Farms = all kinds of vegetables. Corn for feeding cows? If feed is more, so will the beef and the milk be more. Its all domino effect. You are looking at it simplistically. Look into the future some more.

I fail to believe that our economy would collapse if illegal immigrants were replaced with other sources of labor. You're going to have to do better than a doomsday attitude to convince me.




Originally posted by ThePieMaN
This subject is only something to take your mind off Iraq right now and is being fueled by racism.

Please don't bring racism into this. That's nothing but a diversion. Illegal immigration is a much bigger danger than the loss of a few jobs; there's the security aspect to think of, for one thing.


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
You would rather pay a few cents more for corn then see Illegal immigrants make a living to pay for their American childrens needs?

Yep. Let their own gov't take care of them.


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Yes the parents are illegals but their children born on this soil are the Americans of the future.

An outdated law that needs to be repealed.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 12:36 AM
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An outdated law that needs to be repealed.

Repealed? LOL


Thats ridiculous, repealed. Is your idea to turn America from the home of the free to something else?

I guess this needs to be taken off the statue of liberty too!

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breath free.
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!


Ha. You people are besmirching our forefathers and at the same time the very same immigrants who helped build this country.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 01:38 AM
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Double post deleted.

[edit on 15-7-2007 by jsobecky]



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Repealed? LOL


Thats ridiculous, repealed. Is your idea to turn America from the home of the free to something else?

No, I want to keep it the land of the free by stopping the attitude that is The Land FOR FREE!


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Ha. You people are besmirching our forefathers and at the same time the very same immigrants who helped build this country.

We are the ones who are protecting it from an illegal takeover. You, otoh, want to give it away in the name of "altruism".

You won't succeed. We managed to kill the immigration bill, and we'll do whatever it takes to keep our nation sovereign.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 05:56 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
I will leave the issue of inmates earning an wage for another thread.

I couldn't speak for all States about this, only the State I live in...At least on the County level, inmates are required to spend some money for their "accomodations." Several years ago, a friend of mine was so jailed for a month or two...But they also let him out on "work release" so he could still go work at his job.

IMO, allowing inmates to work (if they're not the obsessively violent types, of course) is a positive thing. If the jail facility does charge some money for the inmates term, then they can at least keep up with that cost & still save some money aside while they're in the slammer (Kind of hard to go spend your money at the tavern when you're cooped up in a jail cell
).
At the very least, those prisoners working on the farms (as posted earlier) are taking some effort with their own rehabilitation too.

In reply to most of PieMan' posts...
You say that the inmate workers don't contribute to the local economy? You can bet they still do!
You should consider that the jail facilities won't being hauling inmates a very long way to work at the farms...The vast majority of such workers will be coming from the most local jails.
As I stated above (at least in my State, at the County level; it's likely other levels do the same), inmates do have to contribute to help defray the cost of their incarceration.
Also, depending when they're released, they're likely to go back to their (mostly local) homes & start spending that earned money for a celebration (Let's hope that they don't wind up having so much fun that they get arrested again...
)!
Also, even though inmates still on their jail time have their homes (with utility hookups, telephone service, etc), they still have most (if not all) of their bills to pay to maintain their homes. Think of it as if you went on vacation for some time; You'd still have bills to pay even while you're not at home.
As for the increase in payment for the consumer? Every time you see products being advertised (on TV, in newspapers, even those junk-mail ad fliers they stuff in your mailbox) have all been paid for by the consumers...You don't think that the company that manufactures those products take the cost of advertising out of their own pockets, do you? They take it out of the pockets of consumers. Why else do you see name-brand products costing more than generic brands, even in the same store?
Banks target everybody for mortgages & credit cards, not just illegals. The vast majority of banks in the USA follow the same lead as the Federal Reserve & that is a bank operating illegally anyway. So of course, local branches of large banks are going to try to suck out as much money as they can from illegals anyway...At least, up until the point when the illegals get caught & deported (or legally Naturalized), that is.



Originally posted by ThePieMaN
The only threat is outsourcing. The illegals are keeping our costs down and keeping us competitive with outside sources/countries.

Actually, outsourcing is only part of the threat...It's the combination of outsourcing & hiring illegals that is the real threat. The "domino-effect" you describe only moves faster when these two problems are combined. It's not just the fact that illegals are getting hired (not to also mention the fact that it's illegal to hire illegals in the first place), but it's that the amount of jobs available decreasing that makes the problem worse.

Even after the inmates are released, some may stay with the farm jobs...At least until they find work more to their liking & can get hired elsewhere. In short, the idea of hiring inmates is a temporary solution, until other economical factors can be addressed & action taken.


Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
You would rather pay a few cents more for corn then see Illegal immigrants make a living to pay for their American childrens needs?

Yep. Let their own gov't take care of them.

Ummm...I'd have to agree with jsobecky on this one. According to the Congressional Journals at the time that the 16th Amendment was legislated, use of the so-called "anchor baby policy" is Unconstitutional. At least one of the parents of an American-born child must be a legal American Citizen for the child to be also automatically granted Citizenship. It has to do with the fact the this nation must be able to consider the parent as being "under the jurisdiction of" the State or Federal law structure. If both parents are illegal aliens, so then is the child. This is because Congress (at the time) considered such people as foreign diplomats (& alien immigrants until they've been "naturalized") as being "under the jurisdiction" of their home nation and therefore not granted Citizenship.


Originally posted by ThePieMaN
so does the average american get to sock away more then 20% of their earnings every month into savings by the time the end of the month rolls around?

Inflation & massive debt (at both Government & Public levels) has more to do with the illegality of the Federal Reserve Bank & Corporate lobbying in Government than it has to do with illegal immigrants & the outsourcing of jobs...This is a problem that's been around a lot longer than the past decade or so when illegal immigration became such a big problem. The illegals & outsourcing is one of the "domino effects" of those already-existing problems.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 09:29 PM
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Thank you, jso, for that article. I would never have known about it, but I definitely suspected it. See, for a long time, the corporations have been trying to utilize prison labor, and the government really doesn't object. The only problem is, whenever people find out, they protest like crazy (ie, Protest slams Dell's use of prison labor)

So, how do you get an antagonistic public to accept labor camps? You offer a horrifying alternative.

Here are the steps.

1. Corporations (represented by our gov't) have a labor shortage.
2. They don't want to pay decent wages, so, specifically, they have a shortage of CHEAP labor.
3. Our gov't leaves the borders open, allowing for the safe passage of cheap labor.
4. Corporations (represented by the major media outlets) bring the issue to the attention of the average American.
5. Corporations (represented by imported labor) scare the bejeezus out of the average American by holding simultaneous protests around the country, with extremists going so far as to suggest a Mexican re-colonization of the Southwest.
6. As directed by the media and certain government officials (serving as representatives of the corporations), the average American scapegoats the imported labor as the source of all our troubles.
7. With apparent reluctance, the gov't (for the first time in this whole chain of events) actually listens to the average American, and lets the immigration bill die.
8. Corporations (represented by their more sympathetic counterpart, the 'family farm') explain that, while they would like to follow the law and abide by the wishes of the average American, they still require cheap labor.
9. Corporations (represented by the gov't) offer to use prison labor as a compromise!
10. The average American, fearful of the alternative, finally accepts.

They play us for fools every time, and we keep falling into the trap.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 10:24 PM
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They should combine the two ideas and make the sentence for illegal immigration one year of hard labor with no pay.

I bet those captured would think twice about swimming across that river a second time!



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
They should combine the two ideas and make the sentence for illegal immigration one year of hard labor with no pay.
I bet those captured would think twice about swimming across that river a second time!

Nope...Constitutionally, that constitutes the use of slave labor. The only legal alternative is to not hire illegals for any job & get them deported (or get them to Naturalize) when you find them.





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