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Trouble at the Test Site. An opinion.

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posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 05:55 PM
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In the early 90’s the government figured out how to keep a secret. I don’t know what their secret is on keeping a secret but I do know that I haven’t heard a good rumor about the test site since then.

Someone told me that lie detector tests were given to test site workers every 90 days and the first question was “Have you ever talked with John Lear and what did you tell him?”

In the late 80’s test site workers would come to my door (I was always out flying) and tell my wife, “You tell your husband that he is right. I work up in those black areas and I know.”

I would get occasional information from flight line crews and tower operators at Nellis. But since the early 90’s I haven’t heard the slightest buzz.

There were at least 5 individuals who gave me information on a regular basis. I never heard from them again after the early 90’s. There is a prison in a very remote area of the Nevada Test Site designed and built especially for those employees, workers and guards who breach security. It is a very nasty place they say. I suspect that a few friends I haven’t heard from are in there.

So since I haven’t heard the slightest rumor about Area 51, Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, S-4, Sandia, Tonopah or anyplace else in many years I’ll just have to give you an opinion on something I think is going on up there. I call this opinion: Trouble at the Test Site.

My understanding is that there is unhappiness at the test site. Many are unhappy over the oppressive security procedures. Some are unhappy over the objectives which seem to be oriented more towards efficient death, destruction and invasion of privacy than any truly beneficial achievement for society and those accomplishments which are truly beneficial to society are being hidden and suppressed.

One consistent, persistent and increasing complaint is the time it takes to get to work. While a local (Las Vegas) industry worker can be walking into his place of work 30 minutes after walking out his front door, a Test Site/Sandia worker can take between two and a half to three hours getting to his or her place of work. Add to this mix security measures during transit and you have some very difficult commute problems.

Family problems have always been a part of working at the test site. Not being able to share with your family what you do tends to work against the unity of a family.

The family problem is seriously escalating because of the increase and availability of drugs in Las Vegas society thus to the children of the test site workers. The lack of supervision during the day and poor communication at night is disintegrating the family unit. Of course this problem is not limited to test site worker families. It is increasingly prevalent throughout society. But because of the nature of the work at the test site and the security measures and all of the other problems associated with that job the family situation is more aggravated.

The mother or father or in some cases both cannot make the daily and/or weekly change from oppressive security measures at the test site to light hearted family banter at home. Most have found it psychologically impossible to make the instantaneous change. Consequently they choose one or the other. When the workplace is chosen because of financial and employment considerations the family unit suffers and the breakdown begins.

Family programs are traditionally lacking at the test site. Once a year family invitations to the work place limited in some cases to one family member are drastically inadequate. Weak attempts over the years to address this problem have failed miserably.

The break up of the family unit tends to weigh heavily on the worker and he/she reacts in unpredictable ways. There is a distinct pattern of reduced productivity and increase in workplace mistakes and accidents.

There are isolated incidents of industrial sabotage. Sabotage that is so cleverly done its difficult to even call it sabotage much less find or prosecute the perpetrator.

Compartmentalization while necessary for security fails to provide the necessary feedback and or sense of accomplishment on many projects. There is a level of frustration because he/she cannot interact with different levels of a project that would be more conducive of productivity but at the price of less compartmentalization/security. Scientists, engineers, physicists do a job for the pride of accomplishment. Of making something better, lighter, more efficient, more ingenius. Of contributing to design elegance and functionality. When you take all those away all thats left is the money and that breeds discouragement and disgust.

One of the problems is the attitude of ‘new generation’ workers. Whereas in the old days (pre-1990) strict conformity to authority was seldom an issue. These days, workers are more informed, have a different attitude and therefore more likely to question the long range consequences of particular projects. Administrators no longer enjoy the absolute loyalty and respect they enjoyed in the old days.

The lure of participating in ‘secret’ programs is rewarded with a ‘trap’ from which there is no escape. Many eagerly agree to sign their life away thinking they are about to be told the “Secrets of the Universe”. The reality is much different. In fact the reality is downright grim.

The reality is that you are in a small underground bunker with poor lighting, poor working conditions, discontented workers and a project that seems to have no real useful purpose. You cannot stop, you cannot go and you can’t collect the $200. You can’t even warn the next guy about to take the bait.

Discontent has reached an alarming level. More serious is that the same level of discontent has been reached within the armed forces at exactly the same time for many of the same reasons.

Unfortunately, because of the way the levels of security are set up there is no single person or group that can ‘get a handle on’ or ‘effect’ a solution.

I can offer no predictions but I can state that things are not going well for the U.S. Government, their Armed Forces and scientific installations in the area of human resource management. I suspect that it will get much worse before it gets better only because those at the top haven't got a clue.

The above is an opinion. There are no facts that I know of to support and/or substantiate this opinion.




posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by johnlear
I can offer no predictions but I can state that things are not going well for the U.S. Government, their Armed Forces and scientific installations in the area of human resource management. I suspect that it will get much worse before it gets better only because those at the top haven't got a clue.
* emphasis mine

Hell, John, I could have told you that much back in the early '80s. Does bloated and seemingly disconnected come to mind?


The above is an opinion. There are no facts that I know of to support and/or substantiate this opinion.


A good thing, that ... especially considering the rather vague and speculative nature of the sum total.

Out there, to say the least ... yet seemingly qualified as just that.

Interesting post, John. Keep 'em coming.
I look forward to your extrapolations on the subject(s) mentioned.

Honestly.

 



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 06:41 PM
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Well, there is always the question about how does the government pull off so many conspiracies without someone outing them. Well, what you said here may be a very real reason:


There were at least 5 individuals who gave me information on a regular basis. I never heard from them again after the early 90’s. There is a prison in a very remote area of the Nevada Test Site designed and built especially for those employees, workers and guards who breach security. It is a very nasty place they say. I suspect that a few friends I haven’t heard from are in there.


I think that would be a pretty effective way to pull off any conspiracy. Also, you can't rule out that a lot of these people are probably no longer in the land of the living.


The lack of supervision during the day and poor communication at night is disintegrating the family unit. Of course this problem is not limited to test site worker families. It is increasingly prevalent throughout society. But because of the nature of the work at the test site and the security measures and all of the other problems associated with that job the family situation is more aggravated.


Well, this is something that began during the 1980s. When society basically made it to where a family couldn't exist without at least two incomes, the "nuclear family" began to develop in this society. The kids are running crazy and there is no one there to guide or supervise the child in the household. I think we are beginning to see the effects of this in our society now. It is only going to get worse, I'm afraid.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:10 PM
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John,
I don't have time tonight. (things happening IRL).

But, I'll post my thoughts, tomorrow eve.

Around 6 CST.

Regards,
Lex



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:20 PM
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Lol so let me get this right.they asked on a lie detector Do you talk to john leer and what did he tel you..

They ask yes or no questions because the tests are hard to get a decisive answer.And why are you so important they need to give poeple a lie detector about you lol..

They cant tell if hes lying when hes like oh leer and i talked about blah and blah and blah...Thus is why its always.

Have you ever talked to john leer?yes or no

Is your name john leer?

did john leer and you talk about ufos?

they would be presice yes or no answers



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Project_Silo



they would be presice yes or no answers


You are correct. I was relating the gist of the story not the actual conduct of the test. Thanks for setting me straight.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:29 PM
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Hi John,

I can't say I know much about how things go in the secret installations, but they have to employ normal people just like anyone else. And from my observations of our society I doubt that the administrators will find lack of new labour force in the future, on the contrary.
Seeing how many members of the younger generations have totally been desensitized and out of touch with reality, they will be fertile ground to plant the seeds of secrecy and deception, which the administrators of those facilities have done so well in the past.

If anything their job (the administrators) will be made easier because many have been sufficiently brainwashed by TV and other media to be susceptible to compartmentalized programming. And seeing how the bar in education is constantly being lowered, there would be enough academics working for them as well.

I truly doubt that the black ops get cream of the crop scholars. Instead they get the average scientists who are looking for steady work and pay and will jump (get suckered) on the opportunity to work on things others in their class do not have access to.
The brightest minds will always stay in the public sector because they want to publish papers and get recognition from the academic community, and climb up the academia pyramid.

And what about the fancy mind controlling technologies that have been popping up over the past couple of decades. They must be using those to ensure that workers do not leak information out, which could be a reason why you haven't heard much since the 90s - the tech just got better and so boring fake implanted memories replace the true exciting ones...



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:35 PM
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From what I saw in some documentary or something I saw on Google video or somewhere, sorry I take a lot of pain meds for back pain and can't always recall the details of everything I see. Anyways, the program I saw said that Area 51 had two problems and those probelms caused it to be closed and moved to some other base I want to say New Mexico is where they claimed it mved. The two problems were Sickness and lawsuits, that is to say many people were supposedly getting very sick from suppossed hazardous junk dumped there or stored there and this has caused lawsuits to start popping up all over and it is getting harder for the Government to convince all the Judges to throw the cases out based on National Security. So the gist of that program was that they moved it and this is the reason for the sudden stoppage of all infromation, lights and other types of happening that were once common occurances.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal




sorry I take a lot of pain meds for back pain and can't always recall the details of everything I see. Anyways, the program I saw said that Area 51 had two problems and those probelms caused it to be closed and moved to some other base I want to say New Mexico is where they claimed it mved.



I would respectfully suggest that you resist the temptation to post on my threads until you are off the 'meds' and can recall what you have seen and heard.

In an effort to keep this thread from getting derailed into whether or not Groom Lake projects were moved I will make the following comments and request we stick to the topic.

Groom Lake/Area 51 is only one portion of enormous are refered to as the test site. I included Sandia in the name because it is larger both in importance, facilities and area than Groom Lake.

Groom lake/Area 51 projects/programs have not been moved and there is no intention of moving them. It did not move to Utah as the story in Popular Science and the video you watched would have you believe.

Thanks for your post and good luck on your recovery.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 08:35 PM
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If John Lear was sick of making stuff up about Area 51 (this is not implausible given his dubious Venus thread) and/or he was afraid of getting contradicted by other information about Area 51, this would be a very good cover story to excuse him from not producing anything.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by johnlear
The above is an opinion. There are no facts that I know of to support and/or substantiate this opinion.


I guess I should a precluded or concluded my post with this then too huh?

I can not recall the program I do recall the details of the program, and no it wasn't popular science as I get 99.9% of my information from ULTRA Alternative Media sources, hence I hang out here too...

So let me say I have no facts to support this in my posession and this is only opinion. But I believe that Area 51 was not COVERT enough for them anymore and had too much publicity and excitement sourrounding it and I believe they moved its activities to NEW MEXICO, not Utah.

For you to say you don't know why no information is coming out and then accuse me of derailing the thread for suggesting the reason no information is coming out is there is NO INFORMATION TO COME OUT is absurd. Now, if you only want responses that will say everyone is being locked up for failing lie detector tests when asked about John Lear then say so up front and I will refrain from posting on your thread.

Hope that helps...



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 09:09 PM
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Well john you seem like a interesting fella,I think i first heard you on C2C.I'mma do a little research and see what you have to offer

i'm intrigued i must admit,i have heard a lot about you.


niv

posted on Jul, 13 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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Interesting thread, thanks John.

I wonder if the issue involves people talking to you specifically. Do you know whether the other researchers in your area have been subjected to a similar info dry-up?

If I was employed there and wanted to get certain information out, I probably wouldn't talk to you. Nothing personal, but you're too high profile - too big a risk when I could leak to other researchers who may not be as closely monitored as you may be.



posted on Jul, 13 2007 @ 01:49 PM
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Hi John, I was curious if you had any examples of the "isolated incidents of industrial sabotage." Any good anecdotes that might have fallen through the cracks throughout the years? Thanks.

[edit on 13-7-2007 by VoiVod13]



posted on Jul, 13 2007 @ 05:34 PM
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Ok John, here's my 2 cent.

Originally posted by johnlear

In the early 90’s the government figured out how to keep a secret. I don’t know what their secret is on keeping a secret but I do know that I haven’t heard a good rumor about the test site since then.


The early 90's were the time Bob's story was going from the "fringe"
to a more mainstream audience.
Suddenly, there were TOURISTS (gasp) climbing nearby mountains
to see Groom. Not just exotic aircraft researchers.
IMO, security tightened for this reason.


Someone told me that lie detector tests were given to test site workers every 90 days and the first question was “Have you ever talked with John Lear and what did you tell him?”

In the late 80’s test site workers would come to my door (I was always out flying) and tell my wife, “You tell your husband that he is right. I work up in those black areas and I know.”


No offense, but this sounds like ego-stroking being done by those
who provided information to you. To reassure that ALL the info you
recieved was legit and pertinent.
While I have a good reason to believe a small part is factual, I think
you've been (unknowingly) placed as a dis-info agent.
My opinion.


There were at least 5 individuals who gave me information on a regular basis. I never heard from them again after the early 90’s.


Maybe their job was done ?


There is a prison in a very remote area of the Nevada Test Site designed and built especially for those employees, workers and guards who breach security. It is a very nasty place they say. I suspect that a few friends I haven’t heard from are in there.


All bases have some form of detention. The Navy has the Brig.
To make the leap that these individuals have been incarcerated is
a big one, and might border on paranoia.


So since I haven’t heard the slightest rumor about Area 51, Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, S-4, Sandia, Tonopah or anyplace else in many years I’ll just have to give you an opinion on something I think is going on up there. I call this opinion: Trouble at the Test Site.


I thank you for this post.


My understanding is that there is unhappiness at the test site.


You haven't heard anything in 15 years or so, but still think this ?
Is this based on the last info you recieved, or something new ?

You cover some things here that I'm not going to quote, to save
space, and I think a lot of it is relevant.

Objectives oriented towards death, destruction and privacy invasion.
Goes back to WWII. Been going on, ever since.
What's different, now ? The ease of delivery ? Same concept.
Oppressive security.
So, for 30 some years they got complacent. Then Bob comes along
and once again, they have to tow the line. Good, I say.

Travel times to/from work.
Wah. Been happening from the beginning. Why are they upset, now ?

Family problems.
Hmm. The military and military complex have almost always had
a negative effect on the family unit.
I agree, times now are QUITE different, but to bring drug use into
the picture is absurd.
In the '60-70's we had pot and '___'. Now it's pot and meth.
Always going to have some sub-culture out there.

I do agree that families aren't what they used to be, but the way
work at these facilities goes on hasn't changed greatly in years.


There are isolated incidents of industrial sabotage. Sabotage that is so cleverly done its difficult to even call it sabotage much less find or prosecute the perpetrator.


Again, is this something heard recently, or from the 90's ?
With compartmentalization (sp?), I think it'd be easy to narrow it
down.


Compartmentalization while necessary for security fails to provide the necessary feedback and or sense of accomplishment on many projects.


Here I agree 100%. Kelly knew how to design/build a bird.


Administrators no longer enjoy the absolute loyalty and respect they enjoyed in the old days.


Then, crack the whip. The admin. can control this issue.


Many eagerly agree to sign their life away thinking they are about to be told the “Secrets of the Universe”.


I disagree. These people (for the most part) are groomed from grad
school. They know what to expect.
IMO, that's a cop-out statement.


Discontent has reached an alarming level. More serious is that the same level of discontent has been reached within the armed forces at exactly the same time for many of the same reasons.


Agree 100%.

John,
Thanks for listening.

Regards,
Lex



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 05:29 AM
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John fascinating post, many thanks.

What immediately came to mind reading it is how this applies more broadly to the US military in general, and the crisis state we are in because of 9/11 and the Neocon cabal's push to remake the Middle East and instill soft fascism at home.

As you state, this is the result of your ruminations, without any solid evidence to point to, but I think your analysis is quite solid.

Warnings appear all the time of a fundamental struggle in the military and the gov'tal elites over the direction the US is taking. An intense flare-up occurred over the winter with the last ramp-up of planning to attack Iran, when you had the revolt of the generals, and immediately after articles appearing that a good number of the highest-ranking brass would resign rather than carry out orders to attack Iran.

You also had the rise of Murtha, being fed info and allied with disgruntled military brass who saw the Neocons grinding the US war machine into the dirt without the least regret. Walter Read sprang from that, the military leaking the story because they knew the civilian leadership would get the lion's share of blame. The Baker commission had their findings immediately dropped in the circular file with a perfunctory brush off, then the post-election Surge, a double slap in the face to the old guard GOP and the electorate. You also have the revolving door of top brass retiring and replacements dropping like flies. The situation is amazingly unstable.

It all culminated in the spring with Brezinski (Mr. CFR) going before the Senate and saying point-blank that an attack on Iran was madness and that A-Q terrorism was bogus and the gov't was using it for its own ends. Stunned silence ensued. Then the coup-de-grace, Putin at the Munich Conference in spring, saying the US had become dangerously unhinged.

Currently, the Neocons have regrouped and are ramping up the A-Q nuke scenario just as Iraq is becoming unglued and the Congress (even John Warner) are trying to pull it off life-support.

So, what you have are West Pointers and true patriots who can't in good conscience abide this madness and are pushing back. We are in a situation where we could see a military counter-coup against the desperate Neocons if they try their Al-Quaeda nuke plot to cement their hold on power, supported by the CFRs and the old guard realists of the Baker/Scowcroft camp.

The situation at the site is a microcosm of this entire mess, as authoritarianism and soft fascism creeps--and sometimes lurches--forward. The real question is, will people roll over and take it? And really, right now the only "people" who matter are the military--they're the only ones with the power to stop it.

What a bizarre situation we've been pushed into, that the military is our last, best defense from our own gov't.

typos


[edit on 14-7-2007 by gottago]



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by gottago




What a bizarre situation we've been pushed into, that the military is our last, best defense from our own gov't.


Thanks gottago for the very perceptive and accurate summary and sitrep.

The event we feared the most, is now the event we think will save us. The mother of all ironies would be if it was planned exactly that way.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 11:40 AM
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John,

Method in the madness, indeed. What a mess.

More on-topic, do you know anything about turn-over rates? Are they increasing?
Recruitment as well?

It sounds like a parallel to the armed forces in general: who wants to sign up with these growing negatives, like being shipped to Iraq?

And just how easy is it to get out once you've decided you want out?



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Lexion



Ok John, here's my 2 cent.



Lex, you could have saved yourself 2 cents with a simple, "So what else is new?"


Here I agree 100%. Kelly knew how to design/build a bird.


Yes and the Pentagon hated him for it. He knew how to bypass them and with the friends he had at the top he could get away with it. Then. But no more would any single invididual ever have that much power. They couldn't wait to get rid of Kelly and when they did that was the last of any well-run efficient secret program. Oh they're still secret airplane programs, lots of them, but they now cost in the hundreds of billions of dollars in mistakes and overruns.


originally posted by johnlear
Administrators no longer enjoy the absolute loyalty and respect they enjoyed in the old days.



Then, crack the whip. The admin. can control this issue.


I assume you're joking but if you are not you are seriously mistaken.


originally posted by johnlear
Discontent has reached an alarming level. More serious is that the same level of discontent has been reached within the armed forces at exactly the same time for many of the same reasons.



Agree 100%.


Civilizations have risen and fallen on the same mistake which is thinking that 'cracking the whip harder' will ensure 'business as usual'.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by johnlear


Civilizations have risen and fallen on the same mistake which is thinking that 'cracking the whip harder' will ensure 'business as usual'.


We're (I'm) not talking civilizations (sic).
I'm talking a Govt. run, mostly civilian populated facility.
"Business as usual".

Funny.

You say that in the early 90's, your "informants" just
"disappeared".
According to you, isn't that "business as usual" ?

I addressed quite a lot of your post and theory.

To (phrase I hate) blow me off like this only
strengthens my belief I've hit a nerve.

Thank you for the reply, it really shows some of
your true colors.

Regards,
Lex



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