Is it really cruelty if your indoor cats have ALL their claws removed?

Originally posted by Boondock78

the feline/human comparison is still not the same. i bet there are all sorts of living creatures you won't hesitate to stomp...i am trying to make a point by arguing against domesticated animals.
i did not being up the cruelty thing but someone did and they mentioned the pets lack of choice. so, i mentioned the pets lack of choice in being a pet in the first place.
i'd rather not see a cat get run over or abused either. what does that have to do with anything?
if a cat is to live in this house, it will have it's claws removed. small price to pay to not roam the streets hungry/cold/whatever.

i just fail to see how a person can think it is cruel to declaw a cat, but do not think it is cruel to never let them go outside....i mean, that is one hell of a choice you are making for that there cat....not letting it outside....
for shame

I try not to stomp creatures - even little ones. Life is life. If there's a spider in the house, i try and take him outside - or i let him go about his business, knowing he's eating other bugs in my house.

Arguing against domesticated animals is really nonsensical. Pets care for their human companions just as much as we care for them. I'm sure as you know, being that you own cats, there's a saying that "we don't own the cats, the cats own us." =)

saying i'd rather not see the cat get run over or abused by kids is why i don't allow my cats outside. If i lived off in the country with a lot of land and away from busy roads, i'd definitely let them out. I'm not taking away part of their anatomy by keeping them inside. that is what the difference is, I'm not customizing my cats body.

It's mutilation. You either get a cat and assume the negative side (claws, kittens, etc) or you don't get a cat at all., they're not toys.

I'm really, really surprised by the amount of comments against declawing, and to a greater degree about not fixing your animals.

The only mutilation I see is on my furniture. And for the person who talked about his/her cats eating them when they die, well, that was freakin' bizarre!

All I know is that my cat's live the high life and get all the love they want.

Peace

Originally posted by horrorbiz

I try not to stomp creatures - even little ones. Life is life. If there's a spider in the house, i try and take him outside - or i let him go about his business, knowing he's eating other bugs in my house.

------well you are very noble...i would still venture there is some life out there you care not about. we are people after all---


Arguing against domesticated animals is really nonsensical. Pets care for their human companions just as much as we care for them. I'm sure as you know, being that you own cats, there's a saying that "we don't own the cats, the cats own us." =)

-----i was now arguing against owning a cat..i was trying to make a point. that point is from the day we bring the cat home as our pet, it has no choice. thats all. i don't own a cat anymore but i used to have a couple.---


saying i'd rather not see the cat get run over or abused by kids is why i don't allow my cats outside. If i lived off in the country with a lot of land and away from busy roads, i'd definitely let them out. I'm not taking away part of their anatomy by keeping them inside. that is what the difference is, I'm not customizing my cats body.

^^^you'd rather noe see your cat get run over and that is very sweet of you but you are still making the choice not to let the cat out. no nature for the cat, no running outside and climbing trees. no doing all the 'natural' stuff cats do cause you made the choice for the cat.
you say you are not changing their anatomy and that is fair enough. in this very thread i have read through links that were tossed out that say cats suffer emotional pain from the declaw so i will argue the same for never going out.
i will argue that you cat looks out the window and wants to go out and by you not letting him, you are causing emotional pain.

see how silly it is? people think it is silly that i bring up even having an animal but why? where does the cruelty trip end? i am curious.
only when we 'change their anatomy'.....?
why even bother trimming their nails then? that is their anatomy..i mean, in the wild nobody cuts their nails for them, so why bother.

this is a silly argument.
humans 'own' domestic animals and with that, we get to make the choice on if we want to spay/neuter/dock/crop/declaw.
i guess that is the benefit of being human.




to the person said that you left the cats to if you died after they eat you they can go live life or whatever you said, thats just odd.


dr love, people are never gonna get it.

I'm not against spaying/neutering but I am against declawing.

My male cat Claude is intact (ball-wise) but that's really only because he has a respiratory problem and it's unsafe to put him under anesthesia to do the surgery to fix him. But I think it's great because he's a very active little guy, and he doesn't spray or have any other problems usually associated with tomcats. Since he just lives in my apartment (with some brief excursions out into the hallway with me chasing him up and down the stairs in my building), there's no chance of him knocking up any pussy cat. He's pretty brave too, he really loves seeing both other people and also dogs and runs as fast as he can up to snuggle with both whenever he sees them. I think if he was fixed, he'd be a lot more lazy and shy.

Originally posted by DarkSide
It's mutilation. You either get a cat and assume the negative side (claws, kittens, etc) or you don't get a cat at all., they're not toys.

i disagree and i would go so far to call you an irrisponsible owner(if you own a cat and feel this way)...

it is very irresponsible to not get your cat spayed or neutered. there are MILLIONS of stray cats out there due to people not getting their animals fixed. then there is the whole cancer/pyometra problem later..i bet the animal would love that..

i wonder..if they could make the choice.
hey mrs cat. i am going to keep you inside your whole life and you will never have a litter so i offer you two choices. a simple surgery where the uterus is removed that way, you can accidentally get knocked up and NO PYOMETRA later, or, do you want to chance it"...

friggin dumb

spayusa.org...

Millions of healthy, adoptable cats and dogs are euthanized each year in the U.S. because there simply are not enough homes for them all...

^^^^^^^^nice eh....would they choose to be alive or spayed you think? you are giving people irresponsible advice or at least your crappy little comment about 'dealing with it'...there is more to it than that

BENEFITS OF SPAY/NEUTER FOR CATS AND DOGS
Risk of mammary gland tumors, ovarian and/or uterine cancer is reduced or eliminated, especially if done before the first heat cycle
Reduces number of unwanted cats/kittens/dogs/puppies

Top 3 Reasons to Spay and Neuter

It helps to reduce companion animal overpopulation. Most countries have a surplus of companion animals and are forced to euthanize or disregard their great suffering. The surplus is in the millions in the United States. Cats are 45 times as prolific, and dogs 15 times as prolific, as humans.They do not need our help to expand their numbers; they need our help to reduce their numbers until there are good homes for them all.

Sterilization of your cat or dog will increase his/her chance of a longer and healthier life. Altering your canine friend will increase his life an average of 1 to 3 years, felines, 3 to 5 years. Altered animals have a very low to no risk of mammary gland tumors/cancer, prostate cancer, perianal tumors, pyometria, and uterine, ovarian and testicular cancers.
Sterilizing your cat/dog makes him/her a better pet, reducing his/her urge to roam and decreasing the risk of contracting diseases or getting hurt as they roam. Surveys indicate that as many as 85% of dogs hit by cars are unaltered. Intact male cats living outside have been shown to live on average less than two years. Feline Immunodeficiency Syndrome is spread by bites and intact cats fight a great deal more than altered cats.


The capture, impoundment and eventual destruction of unwanted animals costs taxpayers and private humanitarian agencies over a billion dollars each year. As a potential source of rabies and other less serious diseases, they can be a public health hazard.


and imo, the number 1 reason why to get the cat declawed is in the second vid i posted in the first page. 54 seconds in...take a listen to how loud that grown man is screaming...why?
cause the cat is tearing his ass up through his jeans.
even though he is a sweet cat and loveable and 'pet of the week'...he tore that guy up.

besides your personal opinion of it is cruel or you take what you get, do you have any other arguments against this? cause i am not seeing any.

the links that say it is painful? well come out of pocket and get some pain meds then.....so silly

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I'm not against spaying/neutering but I am against declawing.

.

thats fine but why are you against it?
i am against tail docking and ear cropping cause that is strictly a cosmetic surgery.
the declawing surves multiple purposes...
lots and lots of old, single, rather sick people have been 'fostering' cats and small dogs for companions. least it is a big thing around here.

you think it is a good idea for an 85 year old lady that don't hear/move so good to have a cat with 4 sets of raxor sharp claws? i don't think that is a good idea BUT, without the claws, the cat AND the old lady could benefit from it. mutual love.

see, cats get spooked. my wife got sliced up quite a bit and all she did was pass by our cat with the vacuum. it was not even plugged in as she just pulled it out of the closet. cat jumped out of the chair and rocked her.

accidents happen and an accident with a cats claws against your skin can be a serious one.

Hmmmmmmm................... I have 2 cats. Yeah....... Hooray.......... One we rescued - thrown out of a moving car on a highway. I had 2 choices. Get the cat, or chase these people down and beat them senseless. The poor cat was frozen in terror. I stopped and took him into the car. He was stick thin, and had cigarette burns on his belly, and his ears were singed. I didn't think he would make it. Took him to the vets, and told him that I would make his last days as comfortable as I could as long as he wasn't a danger to my other cat. Feline leukemia is scary. Anyway 11 years later he is the biggest, fattest cat in the world. All he wants to do is be loved.

That being said - I had the vet declaw him the second it was possible. Yep, I told that vet to just rip those suckers out.

good for you lombozo

sometimes it needs to be done to save our own skin...literally

Originally posted by lombozo
Feline leukemia is scary.

I can attest to this. I was bitten by one of our cats who had FL when I was younger, and he sliced open the main vein in my forearm and it was a freakin' bloodbath. I'm talking blood squirting and spurting uncontrollably. We didn't know he had leukemia until after this but the cat was in serious pain and that's why he went crazy on me. We found him dragging his back legs around shortly after and had to have him euthanized.

Anyways, spaying and neutering is the single most beneficial and caring thing you can do for your pet. That is a fact.

Peace

Originally posted by Boondock78
-----i was now arguing against owning a cat..i was trying to make a point. that point is from the day we bring the cat home as our pet, it has no choice. thats all. i don't own a cat anymore but i used to have a couple.---

you'd rather noe see your cat get run over and that is very sweet of you but you are still making the choice not to let the cat out. no nature for the cat, no running outside and climbing trees. no doing all the 'natural' stuff cats do cause you made the choice for the cat.
you say you are not changing their anatomy and that is fair enough. in this very thread i have read through links that were tossed out that say cats suffer emotional pain from the declaw so i will argue the same for never going out.
i will argue that you cat looks out the window and wants to go out and by you not letting him, you are causing emotional pain.

see how silly it is? people think it is silly that i bring up even having an animal but why? where does the cruelty trip end? i am curious.
only when we 'change their anatomy'.....?

to the person said that you left the cats to if you died after they eat you they can go live life or whatever you said, thats just odd.

dr love, people are never gonna get it.

Arguing against owning a cat... people usually own domesticted animals. Maybe there are some people who enjoy owning a feral cat and having it go sh*t crazy in the house. lol. That might be kinda funny in it's own way.

Maybe the cat does experience emotional pain from not going out. That's a big maybe. However, since my cats have never been outside, there is no attachment to outside. No attachment generally means no emotions. Granted there are exceptions.

I can find tons of websites against declawing. In many European countries it's apparently illegal. I can find some websites where there is only debate on "cruelty" of keeping cats indoors.

we "own" cats? Sure - in a literal sense - and that's about as far as i take it. As in, if someone was like "i'm taking this cat," I'd say "no. thats's my cat." I don't look at my cats as some generic objects.

Oh, and as far as the person who said they don't mind if the cats eat them after they died... ah, that's not such a bad idea. =) I'd sooner them eat me than starve before someone found them.

and as you say to me - "some people are never gonna get it." I say the same thing to you.

Originally posted by horrorbiz
... people usually own domesticted animals.

---yes i know. my point was though the animal has no choice in the matter. people also alter their domesticated animals that they OWN---



Maybe the cat does experience emotional pain from not going out. That's a big maybe. However, since my cats have never been outside, there is no attachment to outside. No attachment generally means no emotions.

---and it is a big maybe they suffer emotional pain from being declawed. besides which, that is not my point. my point is, you are choosing for your cat so this whole 'the cat don't have a choice' thing don't hold water for me. it is also a big maybe that the cat will get an infection or be in pain...there are ways to combat that. be a responsible OWNER...give it pain meds. clean the paws...watch for infection.....this is all common sense stuff.
you say no attachment usually means no emotions..how do you know what a cat feels? they ar einstinctual creatures...how do you know that it don't 'yerarn'(sp) to be outside to climb a tree. you don't know.
am i saying you are a bad owner? absolutely not. you do the best you can to be a responsible pet owner.
news flash people that declaw are doing the same thing. i have already given several examples of why a declaw is beneficial.---


I can find tons of websites against declawing. In many European countries it's apparently illegal. I can find some websites where there is only debate on "cruelty" of keeping cats indoors.

---ummm. ok. what am i supposed to say to this. lots of websites against declawing. wowzers. it's illegal in some european countries...again, wowzers..i don't live in a european country. if i did, i guess my cat would have claws then eh?---



we "own" cats? Sure - in a literal sense - and that's about as far as i take it.

---well thats fine but the state takes it further than that. most states you have to register your animals(most don't but you are supposed to by law) and you also take responsibility for YOUR animal...if your cat tears up the neighbors whatever, who is gonna answer? you or the cat?
you OWN the cat. you make the choices reguarding it's life...that is a fact.---


and as you say to me - "some people are never gonna get it." I say the same thing to you.

what exactly don't i get?
the fact that people try to lay this cruelty trip on people that want to declaw their cats?
the fact that our animals have ZERO choices in their lives..

what exactly do i not get?

thanks

I can't stop people from doing things to animals.

OK fine we OWN animals=) If we're going to do the literal aspect of things, cats do not have zero choice. they choose when to eat, sleep, play, wake you up at odd times in the morning, etc.

If it was a big maybe there was emotional pain from declawing there would not be such a strong movement against it. Good for Europe and illegalizing declawing. The fact that they make it illegal should speak volumes beyond the basic level of the law. Plus, I'd rather not dope my cat up on pain meds, as I'd rather not take them myself - unless absolutely necessary in either case. Big pharma companies don't need my money.

yes cats are instinctual - but i think people can be empathetic to how a pet feels. Just as they can be to you. i think "responsible pet owner" is subjective to the individual.

what i feel you do not get is that declawing is not a trivial act which you should give no second thought to.

Originally posted by horrorbiz
I can't stop people from doing things to animals.

OK fine we OWN animals=) If we're going to do the literal aspect of things, cats do not have zero choice. they choose when to eat, sleep, play, wake you up at odd times in the morning, etc.


what i feel you do not get is that declawing is not a trivial act which you should give no second thought to.

ok. i guess we will have to break it down even further....
sure, they choose when they eat, or do they? did you choose to put an auto feeder out so they can munch whenever or do you feed them at a certain time? i fed mine at certain times.
they choose when to sleep unless of course you wake them up cause say, they're sleeping on your computer desk.

gimmie a break with this ok...you know very well what i meant when i say they have zero choice.
we as their owners choose their environment, their diet, their toys, their litter, their amount of attention, et....THAT is what i am talking about.


these days, in 2007 i think declawing a cat is a trivial act. why?
cause there are good procedures for it and there is medicine for the pain.
we go from giving a cat meds to 'doping them up' and supporting big pharm..please

it is not an issue if a person who is RESPONSIBLE(that is the key word) declaws their cat.
also, you know those links are biased against it and don't list all the facts. i am not going to go searching as i feel it is a waste. i will just say from my experience with my last cat(one of many that i declawed).

the vets office offered us a couple types of anesthesia for the cat. they offered up zero pain meds, a couple days worth or several days worth. they offered to keep them in the hospital for more than 2 days or let us bring them home.

am i saying it was a fantastic time for the cat? of course not. BUT, if you give them the proper anesthesia and pain meds after. if you actually pay attention to the cat, it is over in a couple days. they are not in 'extreme' or 'severe' pain if you give them the pain meds. they are not scarred for life in not having their claws.
my cat came home on the second day and was walking kind of lightly but that was about it. by the next day, paws were totally clean and i gave meds once a day. by the 4th or so day home it was like nothing had ever happened.
i doubt my cat went into an inward depression. that cat was playful as a mofo. would do backflips for me and stuff and all kinds of crazy stuff. all with no claws.

so yeah, i think it is trivial if you are responsible about it. i think all these links and facts about pain are from people that are biased simply cause they don't agree. they 'think' it is barbaric or cruel or mutilation and it is not.
it is a simple procedure and i think a good one. ever been lacerated by a cat?
the legality's of it in other places really don't concern me.


now, you want to get into it being 'cruel' to dock ears and crop tails and i'll get with you. that is pure cosmetics and serves no practical purpose, unlike removing claws, uterus, or testes. a tail or an ear would be a mutilation. why would you do it?
only for looks.....


if cats had different behavior patterns and had the ability to be trained perhaps like a dog or at least understand things, then i would not be so much in favor for declaws. that is just not the case.
the more and more i think about it, i think i actually could(to play devils advocate) argue against owning cats as pets.
certain aspects about their anatomy and personality tells me that they are not really suited for being a companion...

again, this is devils advocate here.
i mean, they really can not be trained(not in the way a dog can)
they are much more independant than a dog insofar as they could take you or leave you
they are not known to be a 'protector' of a family like a dog will/can be
-----------

know what i mean? i know it is a whole different topic and i don't mean to derail the thread.

in the end, i think declawing is no big deal and in most cases, actually SHOULD be done. least the fronts. but only if they are strictly inside cats.
that is just my opinion

i keep a small bowl of dry food out for them to munch whenever, and i feed them canned 2x day. if they don't like the canned food, they'll straight up walk away. lol.

my cats probably sleep all day while my gf and i are at work. when we come home they get excited and want to play.

i'll give you a break with it =) i knew what you meant. Just as I figured you knew what i meant in regards to "owning" pets.

"doping up" = slang.

big pharm is evil. but that's for another thread.

yes, we choose what we think is their best interest. I buy all my canned food from a natural pet store. they love the Tiki Cat brand.

You say "so yeah, i think it is trivial if you are responsible about it. i think all these links and facts about pain are from people that are biased simply cause they don't agree. they 'think' it is barbaric or cruel or mutilation and it is not. it is a simple procedure and i think a good one."

That is your opinion. You will supply "proof" that it's a good procedure, I will supply "proof it is not."

I've been lacerated by cats many times. I've got a few goin' on my forearm right now. skin heals.

I agree with you on docking ears and cropping tails.

I also agree cats will take or leave you - this refers back to the saying of you don't own cats, they own you. Cats pick their person. I have 3 female cats and 1 male. one of the females and the male is partial towards me. One of the others is partial towards my gf. The last female just does her own thing.

To declaw a Cat is the same as if you where to cut off your fingers at the first joint...
So I wouldnt really say its crule, becasue claws can ruin your stuff in your house. Its crule to declaw a kitty that goes outside sometimes, becasue then it can not defend itself in the wild..
Crule would be a little harsh of a word, its just how you feel about it.
Im sure most cat owners dont do it to be mean, but to save some trouble with the cats clawing everything...

Originally posted by horrorbiz
. skin heals.

so does a cats paw after a declaw procedure.
with some anesthetic ans a little pain meds after, it's no big.
personally, i'd rather not get tore up and have to heal over and over when i can just get the claws removed.
benefits of being human a i guess. one of the few.

comparing a cat scratch on your skin that is healing to your cat having to heal from declawing is - for lack of a creative analogy at the moment - comparing apples to oranges.

Originally posted by horrorbiz
comparing a cat scratch on your skin that is healing to your cat having to heal from declawing is - for lack of a creative analogy at the moment - comparing apples to oranges.

and so is comparing a car getting declawed to a human getting their finger cut off at the knuckle. that don't stop people from making the comparison though

edit* also, i didn't compare them. i just said the cats heal too

[edit on 13-7-2007 by Boondock78]

cool man, i think we've both made our points.