Any ATS members on the Square????

I have been a mason for 4 years now. Although I may be low on the scale(3rd degree MM) I can't see where everyone gets the perception that Masonry is evil. I know I haven't reached a 'level' of knowledge as some of my brothers but I can honostly say it's the farthest thing from it. Any and all organizations, societys that have men in them there will always be ones that take advantage and abuse . I for one cherish the friendships and brotherhood that surrounds real Masonry.
If you guys really want to know what it's all about ask around. You would be surprised who is a Mason. That's the beauty of Masonry. It's one of the only places in society where men from all religion, creed, occupation can come together as equals. Yes there is rank structure and so forth but it's really not interpreted as you would imagine. Yes Iam a third degree, and I could sit down with a 32/33 degree mason but we see the humanity in each other and therefor know that we are equal. To be honost with you if there was a "secret agenda" I would trust the judgement of my fellow brothers. That's how strong the bond in Masonry is.

Originally posted by clevengercm

Annual grants of thousands of dollars to the Prince Hall Shrine Health and Medical Research Foundation.

Annual grants to several institutions of higher learning and to hospitals throughout the United States for Medical research.

A National Scholarship Grand Program for young ladies between the ages of 17-24 to attend college and universities of their choice,

Annual Educational Grants for economically deprived youths.

A program of financial aid to youth in their fight against drugs, crimes, and delinquency.

Annual grants to the N.A.A.C.P, the Legal Defense Fund, and the United Negro College Fund.

Support summer camps for youth,

Voter education and registration drives.

Establishment of and maintaining dialogue with White House officials, Congress men, and national leaders on various issues affecting African-Americans and others

This is taken from the www.aeaonms.org...

This is the Prince Hall Shriners that I am a member of.

I understand that you're posting this in response to my post. You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter how much money a nonprofit gives. It's the percentage. A nonprofit has a public trust. It also has legal requirements. In the case of the Shriners, they have for years not been accountable. They have not supported their alleged philanthropic expenditures with competent, adequate, transparent accounting. They have failed to rectify what transgressions they've been accused of. They have, over and over, been caught red handed expending funds on themselves rather than on philanthropy. They hide their transgressions of the public trust with inadequate accounting practices. You have listed some of their projects and giving. That's great. But if they are pilfering public funds--that's what money raised by nonprofits is, public funds--then their actions are unethical and their reputation is dirt. If you like, I can U2U you additional information about your organization that you at this point in time don't seem to be aware of. Just let me know.

I'm not a Shriner but, in my mind, your allegations beg the following questions:

- How do they get away with it, given the strict financial reporting requirements for IRS non profit status?

- If they are as demonstrably corrupt as you claim, why haven't they been prosecuted?

It's pretty easy to find an article about almost any organisation which demonstrates a relatively isolated incident of inappropriate behaviour , but your accusations of general and widespread misappropriation of funds need to be backed-up.

If you've got a fair amount of material, as you've mentioned, maybe you could start a new thread? I'm certainly interested in the topic, and I think there's implications for anyone who's given money to the organisation!

Originally posted by sb2012


So you worship yellow dwarf star?

Actually, I worship a yellow dwarf. His name is Booboo, and he lives in my garden.

[edit on 13-7-2007 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Bspiracy
How many levels/degrees are there?

There are three basic degrees in what is called "Ancient Craft Masonry": Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason. Once one is a Master Mason, he may join numerous "Rites" if he so desires, all of which have varying numbers of degrees. The purpose of these degrees is to elaborate more completely on the first three.

I've heard that after 33 then you are truly "in the know" and are taught there is no god as Christianity or other religions support. After 33 there are 13 more ?

Anyone else hear of this?

Freemasonry doesn't teach theology. What a Mason believes about God is nobody's business but his own. While most Masons are Christians, one does not have to be a Christian in order to be a Mason, nor does he have to believe in the Christian version of God.

In the Scottish Rite of Masonry, there are 33 degrees. However, other Rites offer different numbers of degrees.

Originally posted by yuefo


Don't get me wrong, I don't have an ax to grind with the Masons or the Shriners, but I can't just let that comment pass. Having worked in the nonprofit sector for over 20 years, I can tell you that the Shriners are one of the most notorious abusers of their nonprofit status, and it's been that way for as long as I've been in philanthropy right up to the present.

Charity Navigator gives the Shrine charities 3 out of 4 stars:

Link

I think one of the major problems is a misunderstanding. We've never claimed that every cent we raise goes to the hospitals or burn centers. We also raise money for our own operations and activities. These are clearly segregated.

For example, if you buy some candy bars from a Shriner standing in front of the mall, the box will either read "For Shriners Children Hospitals" or "For Temple Activities".

Originally posted by Bspiracy
How many levels/degrees are there?

I've heard that after 33 then you are truly "in the know" and are taught there is no god as Christianity or other religions support. After 33 there are 13 more ?

Anyone else hear of this?

b

Did you make that up all by yourself or did David Icke help? After the 33rd degree you get to meet your blood drinking, shape shifting, vampiric, reptillian overlords.

[edit on 13-7-2007 by brotherforchrist]

You know this really bothers me, I do not claim to know all the facts/charges/etc, however there is overhead with running any type of organization,and if you want to talk abuse, look at how much money was squandered by the red cross in the wake of 9/11.It seems that people on these boards have nothing better to do than slander people who are giving a large portion of their time at no charge to help burned children, once again at no charge.The Shrine has helped so many children, the vast majority of whom are not masons at no cost.They even have been known to drive out of the way to take children and parents to and from the hospital.Regardless of how many pennies on the dollar go to administrative cost/funding the organization itself, at the end of the day children are helped.If you could please explain how you run hospitals and an organization at no cost, I am sure we would all be interested to hear.

How many of the people here that have nothing better to do than be naysayers have ever done a single thing to even on a small level enrich a human life, or make society better, or volunteer for anything charitable? I would wager a disproportionately small amount of you do anything charitable, yet you sure do love to drag others through the mud, and malign peoples good name.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 13/7/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by clevengercm
Masonry is not for everybody. What Im trying to get at is, not too bash it or think its a big crazy NWO conspiracy everytime you here "Masonic".
[edit on 12-7-2007 by clevengercm]

So how do you (Masons) deal with the conspiracy talk? I can imagine that it could get pretty annoying to allways have to justify and explain what it really is. Are there some sort of rules on how to deal with this?

Meh...

You consider the source... When you're being maligned by cretins, it's hard to take things seriously. I've always said you can judge a group by it's detractors... Apply that to a variety of organizations and see what you get.

I'm not saying the work the Shriners do isn't good and worthwhile. In fact I think they've been doing amazing work for years. What I'm saying is, in professional philanthropy circles, the Shriners don't measure up to acceptable accountability standards at the very least. They have been stonewalling on reporting requirements for as long as I can remember.

Much of the information Hill requested should have been listed on the Shriners annual 990 tax returns or included in financial statements, budgets or annual audits. IRS non profit disclosure law states that when a 501(c)(3) non profit group is asked for such information, they have 30 days to provide it. Two years later, Hill’s questions and requests for financial information have yet to be acknowledged, let alone answered.

sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

So their problems persist in the present, but note the reference to "20 years ago":

So, the Shriners Temples are individual fraternal groups that raise money for the Shriners Children’s Hospitals, the charitable group. According to Pennsylvania charity law, 100% of the Shriners Temples net proceeds, after expenses are paid, must go towards the hospitals. Twenty years ago, the Orlando Sentinel ran a series of investigative articles that discovered that the Shriners circuses had raised over $23 million but only about 2% of the money or $346,251 actually went to the children’s hospitals.

To be fair, when you have their kind of assets, you can expect extra scrutiny. Too bad they turn on their own members who want to do the right thing. Guess it's kind of a good ol boys club:

“Mostly, I just can’t understand why no one will answer my questions or provide me with the financial documentation like they are supposed to. Instead, I get kicked off committees when all I want is to help the poor little kids. I know of hundreds of cases where a Shriner will ask financial questions and either be kicked off committees or be kicked out of the Shriners entirely. I just wonder what they are trying to hide; I wonder why they keep begging for money when their assets are valued over $9 billion dollars.”

That is a good question, isn't it?

Originally posted by brotherforchrist

Originally posted by Bspiracy
How many levels/degrees are there?

I've heard that after 33 then you are truly "in the know" and are taught there is no god as Christianity or other religions support. After 33 there are 13 more ?
b

Did you make that up all by yourself or did David Icke help? After the 33rd degree you get to meet your blood drinking, shape shifting, vampiric, reptillian overlords.
[edit on 13-7-2007 by brotherforchrist]

Actually I stay away from Icke in a lot of respects but try to find some sort of truth in something he says if I DO for some reason find myself around his information. You took my question somewhere too far and it's sad that answers like yours slowly force people away from posting since it's in my view a childish answer. Why answer to a child in a grown up forum? I will respond though because I'd like others to see my opinion and hopefully silence a few future comments. in other words, I'm playing "nanny" and spanking you for a "Bad response".
The reason why I asked in a simple quick reference is because I sat and listened to the 3 hour(maybe 2 as I paused throughout the day) interview with Benjamin Fullford regarding the Chinese Secret Society threatening the Illuminati.
Benjamin went into a very lengthy discussion regarding the Illuminati and very specifically talked about the question I posed. It mimicked vague rumors and in such a high profile way it suddenly leaned a bit more credence to the concept.

The answer I was given from Masonic Light was a good thought out answer and stayed within the bounds of his order and was to be expected. If there are an elite few who hold the knowledge of our history dating back to ancient Egypt and beyond AND they are masons, do you think a 32'd degree has any idea of what they hold secret? I am not in any way belittling his 32 degree because I know it's been a long road and he's proud of the fraternity that has yielded to him some rewarding experiences.

My point was simply to see if I could draw something out.. maybe some tidbit to work off of.. I guess I should have known that fishing for a big fish may possibly yield "junk fish"
Normally I resist cheap answers like yours that are too often found in the comments section under You tube videos, but I'm tired of YouTube type comments and wish we could TALK and LEARN here.



b

Originally posted by Bspiracy
My point was simply to see if I could draw something out.. maybe some tidbit to work off of.. I guess I should have known that fishing for a big fish may possibly yield "junk fish"

Hi Bspiracy

Sounds like you are one of those posters who are actually interested in getting to the bottom of things and understanding the Truth as best you can about a subject. However you don't appear to be getting the answers you seek - and I note you imply that you feel ML is restricted in his ability to answer.

What answers are you seeking? Of the (sensible) answers you have received to date, what compromises their validity IYO?

The reason I ask this is because I am perfectly happy to have a dialog with anyone about freemasonry, but I don't want my responses to be pre-labeled as compromised in some way. My posts deserve better than that.

Mostly

You have to excuse my sarcasm,it is easy to get aggrivated with questions that place the burden of proof on the accused and not the accuser, which is what all of these paranoid claims by people who know more about organizations than the people that have served in them for years do, and frankly being truthful and called a liar, uniformed,decieved, etc over and over takes a toll.

Originally posted by Vixion
Hey, i once heard that the masons have great librarys strecthing back 100's even 1000's of years, for me that would be one of my best dreams, so is it true? do you have great librarys ?

O and i know a knights templer (not sure about spelling) how far up is he ? i dont know alot about masons.

Take Care, Vix

Yes, our local lodge has maintanence and a cleaning group that has access afterhours, Ive seen their library and it had some really intense stuff!

I suggest you all get into the cleaning business and just have your own set of keys to whatever lodge you have in your town. Everything these carcasses will tell you is mostly garbage. Activities, community services, come on give me a break! Lmfao say something with actual significance! Wait, youll be disemboweled dont do that

[edit on 14-7-2007 by topsecretombomb]

Originally posted by Trinityman

What answers are you seeking? Of the (sensible) answers you have received to date, what compromises their validity IYO?

The reason I ask this is because I am perfectly happy to have a dialog with anyone about freemasonry, but I don't want my responses to be pre-labeled as compromised in some way. My posts deserve better than that.

Mostly

the answers i seek are just as you said, the truth. There is much wrong with this world and unfortunately the history of Masonry goes very.. very..very far back and is shrouded in mystery and many claim masons are at the core of many wrongs and lies.

I do not expect you to answer any questions about private rituals. Granted you can find the basics online, but i have been inside the "temple"? and have been denied information from even family members. I found that odd.
I do expect answers revolving around what freemasonry does in the public eye. I can ask family members, friends and the internet to validate any of that information.
But any questions I ask you must by your oath honor the society first so whether you like it or not, you are compromised on anything considered "secret".

Since this IS a conspiracy forum and we are here to push what we believe, are there any masons here that believe there is higher than 33? Would you answer if you did know is what's so tricky.
If so/or not, do you believe the "elite" masons who run in global political circles harbor information you will never be allowed to see?
Or is it all a farce and the masons are just goodfellas..

I know it's a long show, but do LISTEN to the Jeff Rense/Benjamin Fullford audio. It's eyebrow raising.

brotherforchrist: yup, I understand your point and I apologize for adopting a "tone".

b




[edit on 15-7-2007 by Bspiracy]

Originally posted by topsecretombomb

Originally posted by Vixion
Hey, i once heard that the masons have great librarys strecthing back 100's even 1000's of years, for me that would be one of my best dreams, so is it true? do you have great librarys ?

O and i know a knights templer (not sure about spelling) how far up is he ? i dont know alot about masons.

Take Care, Vix

Yes, our local lodge has maintanence and a cleaning group that has access afterhours, Ive seen their library and it had some really intense stuff!

I suggest you all get into the cleaning business and just have your own set of keys to whatever lodge you have in your town. Everything these carcasses will tell you is mostly garbage. Activities, community services, come on give me a break! Lmfao say something with actual significance! Wait, youll be disemboweled dont do that

[edit on 14-7-2007 by topsecretombomb]

Well I suppose one shouldn't expect much from a janitor that ran into a few books and began to think he knew all activities that go on inside the lodge.

Stick to the mop.

Masonic libraries go back as far as the collector wishes.. my lodges library is mostly one mans collection donated at death. The books range to roughly the 1820's and includes many hand written "minutes" of former lodges. Quite interesting really.

Other then the minutes, every book in there can be bought at a book store, or online, though with some difficulty and major expenses as these books are as I say, old and rare.

Some libraries go back further, some do not only pertain to Masonry but a collection of books of various philosophical, historic significance.. my personal favorite are the local newspaper collection of my lodge, especially from around WW2, very interesting indeed.

Of course, thats my view, as one who is both a Mason and a studier of history who has read through many books within the library ..

Or, you could believe the janitor who probably did not "pick up the book" which I certainly hope he wouldn't, and instead read the titles, got scared and decided they where all evil Masons.

Originally posted by Bspiracy


Since this IS a conspiracy forum and we are here to push what we believe, are there any masons here that believe there is higher than 33? Would you answer if you did know is what's so tricky.

That depends on exactly what you mean. Ancient Craft Masonry has only three degrees. When one receives the Third Degree, he is a Master Mason and a full member of the Fraternity.

In Masonry, there are several different organizations called "Rites", each having its own number of degrees. You are probably talking about the Scottish Rite, which has 33 degrees. In this example, no, there are no degrees higher than the 33rd in the Scottish Rite.

However, the Oriental Rite of Memphis, for example, possessed 97 degrees. So obviously there were higher degrees in that Rite than the 33rd. In Contrast, the York Rite consists of 12 degrees, so in that Rite there are no higher degrees than the 12th.

If so/or not, do you believe the "elite" masons who run in global political circles harbor information you will never be allowed to see?

Which "elite Masons" are you referring to?

Originally posted by Bspiracy
[the answers i seek are just as you said, the truth. There is much wrong with this world and unfortunately the history of Masonry goes very.. very..very far back and is shrouded in mystery and many claim masons are at the core of many wrongs and lies.

Apparently so. But claims are just that. Anyone can claim anything they choose to. What is important is why people make these claims, and what evidence do they have to support their position.

I do not expect you to answer any questions about private rituals. Granted you can find the basics online, but i have been inside the "temple"? and have been denied information from even family members. I found that odd.

You might be surprised what I will answer about the ritual.

I do expect answers revolving around what freemasonry does in the public eye. I can ask family members, friends and the internet to validate any of that information.

Of course, I'd be happy to answer questions such as these, to the best of my ability and knowledge.

But any questions I ask you must by your oath honor the society first so whether you like it or not, you are compromised on anything considered "secret".

I have taken no such oath, so you needn't be worried about that.

Since this IS a conspiracy forum and we are here to push what we believe, are there any masons here that believe there is higher than 33? Would you answer if you did know is what's so tricky.

I would certainly refer you to MLs earlier answer. I have never understood why some conspiracy theorists believe that advancement in the Illuminati or NWO (or whatever you want to call it) is exclusively available through the Scottish Rite only, ignoring the many other rites and routes that freemasons can chose to take after their 3rd degree. Do you have any idea why this might be?

If so/or not, do you believe the "elite" masons who run in global political circles harbor information you will never be allowed to see?

Who are these "elite' masons? Is there any evidence to suggest that any freemasons in "global political circles" are there because they are freemasons, or because of some other reason?

Admittedly I don't know of any freemasons at the very top of the political tree. Membership of freemasonry used to be more acceptable in the past in politics but now Political Correctness has all but eliminated the freemason from politics, at least in the UK.

Originally posted by yuefo
I'm not saying the work the Shriners do isn't good and worthwhile. In fact I think they've been doing amazing work for years. What I'm saying is, in professional philanthropy circles, the Shriners don't measure up to acceptable accountability standards at the very least. They have been stonewalling on reporting requirements for as long as I can remember.

Stonewalling who? The IRS? I'm fairly certain that, if that was the case, they would have had their tax status revoked.

There doesn't seem to be anything about them stonewalling the IRS at all, but rather (according to the "E-journalist" you've been quoting) a member who sought to expose their financial activities. I can understand them getting a bit hairy about that, to be honest. I would instantly suspect malicious intent!

The reporting requirements the article discusses apply to government enquiries, so how is any of this relevant?

Have you got anything other than this E-journalist? Is there anything concerning the Government disciplining the Shriners for insufficient reporting, or is this all just axe-grinding?

I'm sincerely interested, but this stuff you're quoting seems a bit weak.