Originally posted by build319
Diseria, this has been a great debate so far and I appreciate your straight forward talk without getting into anything political and just stating the
facts as they are.
And I must extend the same appreciation and gratitude to you.
But, don't thank me too much. I'm just an idealist who cannot understand the (supposed) 'importance' of the politics involved. I'm interested in
the ideas driving the anger and the misunderstanding. (That's why I'm advocating that we try our damnedest to understand
instead of this ludicrous and vain stance of bombing the problem away.)
There are sooo many larger issues at hand that the little petty fights between individual countries have become inane to me. And that's where my
understanding fails -- I'm an impartial observer without the historical context. I'm looking at the big picture, trying desperately to understand
the ideas driving people's actions... and I just don't get the point to holding onto old grudges. (And yes, I was raised with "Why can't we all
just get along?"
I believe you and I feel the same way about this whole issue but may have different ideas on the "How can this madness stop?!?!" part.
And it's those differences in ideas that can, hopefully, propagate some solution. ((The only unfortunate part is that we are outsiders to AQ and to
the Muslim faith. The only people who can truly instill any change in a group is someone from that group. I don't know if I've already posted it
here, or on another thread, but check out The Moderate Martyr
. In short, a man
in the 60's-70's began pushing the peaceful half of the Qu'ran. He got killed for it, but the movement hasn't stopped.
Yes, I know exactly why Al Qaeda is upset with the U.S. or at least what the excuse is. Osama Bin Laden became angry at the Saudi govt. after
they allowed U.S. forces to be stationed there during Iraq War Part 1. He said it was outrageous to have the American infidels stationed in the Holy
Land and Saudi Arabia only put up with the U.S. because they didn't want to have to deal with Iraq themselves.
Ahh... "American infidels". Yes, you're right -- this wasn't the start. So, let's dig deeper...
....I'm still not to my point yet, I am sorry about this. I will try and hurry things up here. I'm a little too ADHD sometimes
It's okay, me too. However, I'm grateful for this tangent because we are establishing a common ground... a common understanding.
My belief is that Al Qaeda has wanted to establish an Islamic world for a long time to rival any caliphate ever to exist. The key is to use
these excuses to instigate hatred towards a common enemy to achieve these goals.
A sharp and distinct line must be drawn between AQ's understanding of Mohammed's teachings, and everyone else's. Another line must be drawn between
the two parts of the Qu'ran, one peaceful, one violent. Like any fundamentalist group, AQ picks and chooses which beliefs to uphold, while vehemently
saying that they speak the truth
about the Qu'ran as a whole.
Example: There's a passage about if your wife misbehaves, you are to "beat her (lightly)". And everyone knows this passage thanks to the AQ.
However, I'm willing to bet that that's a mis-translation because Mohammad had 12 wives over the course of his life and, even in the violent times,
he NEVER hit them. He believed his wives to be equals to him, and often talked with them about the problems his people faced.
A complete tangent, but it's these little things that make the AQ so heinous in everyone else's eyes -- including other Muslims.
I wouldn't mind being Muslim. It might just cultivate a sense of community and social responsibility that the American 'culture' has not. But I
don't want to be an AQ Muslim...
I believe if we backed out, this would embolden them further to a point where we may not be able to stop them.
Again, it depends on why they're angry. If they're angry because we 'trespassed', then perhaps it might do some good to meaningfully apologize.
(Not that the US would ever actually *do* that, but I'm just saying...) If they're angry because of our so-called 'culture' and how we're
engendering entire generations to be commodities, to embrace materialism and money... Well, sorry, but they've got a damn fine point.
I know that there's no one reason why they're angry with us. Nothing is ever so simple, *especially* with religion involved. But at least if we
could work through the list one-by-one, we might just come up with a compromise... (Enter the real problem: The US is terrible
compromising -- a petulant child that's used to getting its way.)
It scares me to see that Pew research poll stating that 25% of young American Muslims support acts such as suicide bombing against civilian
That type of thinking is just so amazing to me considering these are American born youth who have lived here their whole life.
If someone had given me a bomb when I was a teenager, my high skool would be missing a wing. (*thinks* ....or the pool!
A) They're young, they're angry, they've no context yet. AQ is catching them at a time when the world seems against 'em, and they have no
understanding of how to properly re/act (in fact, their brains are trying to figure that out -- which creates the anger).
B) The American climate is not exactly Muslim-friendly, nevermind the world climate, so is it that hard to understand why they are so eager to lash
C) Where's the rebel love!? Surely I wasn't the only
D) Civilians are the easy target. If I could figure out how to (1) get a bomb (2) into where it really counts, and (3) take out the people who are
keeping the # going (financially, ideologically, et cetera)... Well, let's just leave it that I don't think I'm alone on this one.
There are a ga-zillion possible reasons why a youth would support such acts.
The question that I'm curious about (and am not too sure I'd be happy seeing the figures for) is whether they support it to the point of carrying it
out themselves. *That* is the scary part. (People supported the war without being asked to pull the trigger...)
But they want Islamic rule over America and the UK. You think if we turn tail and run this will just stop?
No, it won't stop. But, I would absolutely love it if the US stepped out of the world ring and took care of its own. I'm with Canada and Sweden on
this: defend your land, and don't mess with other people.
At least if we did that, and AQ came over for an un-friendly visit, everyone would feel righteous in defending their homeland, instead of invading
I think all sides of this conflict need a swift kick in the pants. I just don't know and can't see how this can end until one side gives
up. The question is what will the other side do? Leave well enough alone or go in for the kill?
While I agree with your sentiment, remember that the swift kick is yet another act of violence.
(Did I also mention that I'm a pacifist?
The problem with petulant children and teenagers is that they don't know enough to know when to stop, nor do they possess the intestinal fortitude
and discipline to actually stop.
IF change will ever happen, I have to believe that it'll happen within the people. (I'm with Jesus on this one.) No external authority figure can
force good behavior onto people. (This is another topic for discussion, but one that I wrestle with everyday. All we can do is suggest, provide our
reasons, and wait for the other side to either come around, or mull it over and continue the discussion. But this takes forever, and people want
change NOW... which leads to this hands-on mess...)
[edit on 11-7-2007 by Diseria]