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Pope Says, "Christian Churches not real Churches."

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posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:49 PM
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I think it needs to be said, yet again, that the Catholic Church is NOT the "original church"!

There were many forms of Christianity before Catholicism including the purist of all, the belief in Jesus and the following of His word.

Catholics did NOT write the Bible.

Not all denominations come from Catholicism

I'm really getting tired of people saying anything they wish without doing one shred of research. If you want to spew out lies please do so elsewhere, I'm tired of people saying the most idiotic things while their fellow bashers support them with further idiotic statements.

It's ok if you don't believe in Christ, I'm fine with that, please believe whatever you want. But please also do a little, just a little, research before you try and speak out against something that is important to a great many people.

We're not all as brilliant and enlightened as you, some people still like to believe in something other than this crap material world.




posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by uberarcanist
Speaker, if you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.


Okay, since you are quoting from some "Christian" site and not an actual historical point, I will do the most, except this uses history to support what they are saying...


In reality, it is not possible to discuss what the Bible says about itself since it was written by many different authors over a very long period of time. It must also be remembered that our present standard Protestant Bible of sixty-six canonical books was not settled upon until a few centuries ago. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians accept into their canons several so-called "apocryphal" books which are excluded in the Protestant Bible. And, there is no doubt that the early Christian canon went beyond the Protestant canon.

The Bible neither teaches nor logically implies the doctrine of scriptural inerrancy. In fact, as many scholars have noted, just the opposite is the case. Indeed, the biblical authors certainly did not view scripture as perfect and unchangeable.
Source

What does the bible say:


In 2 Timothy 3:16, the apostle Paul wrote:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Strangely enough, fundamentalists cite this verse to support the idea of biblical inerrancy. However, this passage merely says that "all scripture" is "profitable" for doctrine, reproof, etc. It says nothing about scripture being "perfect," or "inerrant," or "infallible," or "all-sufficient." If anything, Paul's words constitute a refutation of the idea of scriptural inerrancy, as Oxford University's James Barr has pointed out:


So, it is evident that the prophets knew that the bible would be tampered with in the future,much as it was...


No Original Manuscripts

We do not possess the original manuscript for a single book in the Bible. What we have are copies of copies of copies many times over—and in several different languages.

The oldest manuscript support for the Old Testament is the Qumran material, i.e., the Dead Sea Scrolls. The scrolls date to between the end of the third century B.C. and A.D. 70. Therefore, they were written a bare minimum of three hundred years after the last old Testament book was composed.

Next to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest extant text of the Old Testament is the Septuagint (also known as the LXX), preserved in codices from the fourth and fifth centuries A.D. (Achtemeier 1985:1040-1041). The oldest of the remaining Old Testament manuscripts date to no earlier than the ninth century A.D.
Need I go on?



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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Ya'll have a lovely day now!



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux



We're not all as brilliant and enlightened as you, some people still like to believe in something other than this crap material world.


I believe in a lot of things, but not the infallibility of man's interpretation of scripture. Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe in Christ? Yes.. Do I believe in orthodoxy, whether it be Catholic or Protestant? Absolutely NOT!! Why not? They derived from man, and man errs.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:04 PM
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As far as this comment that the Pope made, he just said something that people who practice spirituality and actually look into things for themselves have known for a long time. Do I view the Catholic church as being "closer to the truth" than Protestantism? No, because I view both as being far removed from the original Christians.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:06 PM
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For a good look at how flawed the bible has become, why not look at what you were taught, and then look at the gospel of judas iscariot.

Seems to me there's a bit of a conspiracy here



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Deus_Brandon
I love it when people say all sorts of tidbits of information ... And try to connect them together through Idiocracy ... and then when you ask for proof or some sort of supporting details; They up and POOF !!!! (DISAPEAR)


Don't challenge me, because I don't hide from a debate. I have no reason to. I generally don't say something unless it's pretty firm and I certainly don't "Poof and Disappear".



[edit on 10-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:13 PM
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Well, one might get a wee bit closer to original by using resources from the Nag Hammadi Library. Of course, if you get any closer to the original than where you are now, you will tend to find that the Catholic faith is not so "well connected" to the belief system that was around not long after the passing of those who are listed as the main characters in this soap opera called Christianity.

You might also read the works of Bart D. Ehrman




posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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Where he is going is that we all are born roman catholic, but society moves us away from this. i.e any other church is not the true representation of the faith.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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I think there are many good catholic people who are definitely christians. I'm not a catholic, however. I believe the hierarchy of the catholic church at the very top (like Vatican City, for example), are the real problem and have been the real problem since its inception.

The idea that the scriptures were majorly overhauled by Catholicism is, I believe, incorrect, and I'll tell you why:

They didn't actually teach what it says.
Instead, they kept it in a language no one could understand unless they could read latin and greek, and the texts were rare to begin with (no printing press for a very long time).

The popes would create new material on the fly. They didn't need to change what the texts said.

On a really sticky point, such as women preaching , you have to keep in mind that the apostles were still only human beings, and could be expected to bring their understanding of the times they lived in, into their words. This is especially obvious with Paul, who was clearly demonstrating the low station women occupied as a matter of course, in that time frame. It was, what I refer to, as a social norm, not an edict from God. People translated his meaning to be that it was direct from God, but what it really was, was the old covenant thought still forming his view of the world (he was, afterall, a devout and studied jew before he converted). I disagree with Paul on his position, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, in order to prove Catholicism massively tinkered with the words of the bible, you'd also have to find where they modified it to fit their teachings. But since the Popes were considered living prophets, they didn't need to modify it. The popes would just issue new statements, tuck the teachings of Christ away somewhere where people couldn't read it for themselves, and the pope could say anything he wanted and be considered 100 percent accurate.

There's no catechism in the bible
There's no need for a priest to absolve your sins.
There's no idol statues.
There's no worship of Mary.
There's no praying to dead saints.
Sabbath is Friday sun down to Saturday sun down, period, end of story.
Jesus wasn't born on December 25th.
Saying Hail Marys doesn't absolve anyone's sins.

This can go on and on. The point is, there was no need to change the words of the texts they compiled into the bible, as they didn't expect the average person would ever get their hands on the teachings anyway, and either would not be able to read it (lots of people were illiterate in their own language, much less a foreign one) or would already be so brainwashed or afraid, that they'd never speak out against the differences between what the texts say and what the popes said.

Really, in order to prove they changed it, you'd have to prove they changed it to fit their own teachings and frankly, I don't see that in the texts. I do, however, agree that adding Paul's epistles is a bit of a mystery, since many of them are full of his personal beliefs and have nothing to do with what Christ taught.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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I for one have never really been very critical of the Catholic faith until all of the
alleged sex crimes within the faith. My father was ex-communicated from the church many years ago for getting a divorce, so he was no longer a practicing Catholic by the time I came around.

However, Protestantism wouldn't exist without the likes of Martin Luther, who, if my memory serves me correctly, was a "reformed" Catholic. Of course, then you have other characters like Calvin and such, but the bottom line is that Catholicism existed long before Protestantism came to the forefront.

So, let me ask. Is the Pope's view really all that surprising? Generally, it gets back to the whole seniority issue. "We were first, so we must be the real deal." I am not saying that it is correct or incorrect, I am just saying that it's not surprising that the Pope feels the way he does.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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Should I really express my belief in this situation? At the risk of people hating me, fine.

The bible is false. Nothing than a mere story book. The biggest mystery in this world is why millions of people worship some higher being that will not show itself and all they have to go on to believe is blind hope.

They tried to show me proof. I still don't believe. How do we know what is written in the bible hasn't been altered in the many times translated? How do we know that it even tells any truth at all?

The only way I will become a believer is if we find papers written by god through the hand of Jebus and is written in leet speak because God's pre-destination knew it would be found in this point and time.

I choose to stop here. I don't want to actually offend anyone. These are just my thoughts on religion.

The Popeolopolis wants to claim that Christianity and all subordinate religions are false? Well, in theory according to the religions under the one God known simply as 'I Am', that can't happen. The Popeolopolis is supposed to be the closest person to God on earth according to the catholics, yes? Tell me if I'm wrong. He's the leader, so to say, of the catholic church, correct? Again, tell me if I'm wrong. Here's a problem with that. From what I understand the Popeolopolis is elected into being the most holy of the holy, right? Might need one more correction there, because I know nothing but what I've read of the catholic church. Shouldn't he be chosen by divine right or something? A sign from your god saying, "Hey! It's this old fart!" Wouldn't that make more sence?

Closing: If I am wrong on any of this, please correct me that way I can correct my self and not make my self look like an @$$ again by stating false facts....friggin' catholics.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:38 PM
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Echo, I don't believe the bible to be completely false, nor do I think it is corrupt in its ORIGINAL form. However, I do believe that it has been constructed in such a manner to support the views of a certain segment of the population. Then when you throw some people's rather tainted interpretation of how God is and different views on what's what, it really becomes obfuscated.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by Echo3Foxtrot


The Popeolopolis is supposed to be the closest person to God on earth according to the catholics, yes? Tell me if I'm wrong. He's the leader, so to say, of the catholic church, correct?


Well, he is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ, yes, that is correct. Now, some say that it is like they are worshiping a man rather than God. I personally haven't seen anyone pray in the name of the Pope, so I think that is a bit faulty assessment of the situation.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:52 PM
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I LOVE the Catholic church! Hell, every year we all walk up to the local catholic church and get WASTED at their summer bash thing. Beer, wine, margaritas, and some great barbeque!

Anyone that takes the Catholic church seriously should go back and study history and see how many people they killed and tourtured through the years. I'm not anti-religion by any means, but you would be safe in calling me "anti-catholic" for sure.

A religion built on fear, hatred, racism and MONEY, oh, almost forgot homosexuality, hmm, where do I join? NOT!



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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Well the tradition of raising the apostles to the level of Godhood, is part of the problem. They were men and women, human beings. They would bring into the "sermon" their personal understanding of the times they lived in. For example, Pauls' epistles (everything from Acts to Jude, I think) were letters, personal letters to people he or one of the other apostles had converted. They were essentially no different than when a christian preacher/pastor/priest, talks about God to others. How many of us know of examples of people who are christians, bringing their personal understanding into the whole issue of God? And how often do social norms, modify our understanding about what it means to be christian?

Here's an example:

In Mormonism, the people were instructed to wear special garments under their street clothing. Women were told that their skirts/sleeves would need to be long enough that no one could see their garments and that their garments should cover them from their wrists to their collar bones, from their collar bones to their hips, from their ankles to their stomach. But as the hemline rose, the garments had to be shortened or force the women to continue wearing long skirts (which would've been a very unpopular decree, i might add). The heat was also a rough one, so when the sleeves were shortened, so were the garment sleeves.

These changes came about because the President of the Mormon church, who is THEIR living prophet, their Pope, claimed that he received heavenly instructions as regards this topic.

It was all about social norms. If a woman of today, wearing the typical garb of this time frame, were to go back to ancient times or even a couple hundred years ago, they'd be looked upon as obscene and told they were obviously not christians or mormons or whatever. It's a social norm. A social norm. Say it with me -- A SOCIAL NORM. Not edicts from God, but social norms.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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The Pope's authority supposedly stems from Jesus' suggestion as Peter as his 'rock', but there is more intepretation than literal sense when we see that he didn't literally mean for people to join or build churches. The bible itself states we don't need to go to a building to find God, so I see this more as a 'lets tell everyone their worship is fake to get them to join us' rather than anything realistic. The Chatholic church is power-based in its people and their belief in the Pope, if they can convert everyone, they'd be one of the strongest governments in the world. I've seen what they've done behind the back of the world before now, and while most Chatholics are good people, there are some far too feverent in their desire and worship of the Pope for me to ever think its the true church.

I don't believe Chatholicism is the real church so I'm not about to listen to his holiness, but nor do I belong to a church, so I don't have to listen to someone else preaching to me when they don't have the right morals either. The only person I listen to in religious matters, is God, BECAUSE he's not human. We are infallable and too proud, power hungry, greedy, etc. If God gave me the power to change the world, well then I'd know he's not nice, because I'd blow it; I realise I am human, and just as wrong as everyone else, how can I judge others, when I cannot judge myself. The one thing I think humanity CAN do, is realise we have limits, all too human limits that make us just as bad as the next person.

Think of some of the people who say their Christian who are terribly greedy, power hungry, (throw in any of the seven sins here), etc. They may SAY they believe in God and that He loves them, but I sure as hell don't want to be them when the time comes.

No, makes no difference to me, but if it makes him happy, so long as he doesn't brand my forehead with anything, I'm fine for him to think he's running the world's religions.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Have we ever known Jesus to be exclusive?

The Catholic faith welcomes everyone who believes what the faith preaches.

Unless of course you happen to be gay, an unmarried mother, a couple "living in sin", suicidal, use condoms, are pro-choice etc etc etc


WRONG. If you are gay, an unmarried mother, a couple 'living in sin', suicidal, use condoms, and/or are pro-choice then you are still welcome to worship in the Catholic church. You are not allowed to receive communion if you are actively homosexual and have no intention of attempting to stop .. and you are not allowed to receive communion if you are actively supporting abortion. If someone is actively homosexual and has no intention of stopping .. or is actively supporting abortion .. then they don't believe what the Catholic church teaches and therefore they have excommunicated THEMSELVES.

You are still allowed and welcome to be Catholic and to worship God at Mass in ALL the cases you listed.


Originally posted by Shadowflux
Hence, you need no church, Pope or priest to save you.


AND yet another case of someone claiming to understand the Catholic faith .. and clearly doesn't. The Catholic Church DOES NOT say that belonging to the Church saves someone .. and it does NOT say that a priest or the pope saves people. JESUS CHRIST is the only savior. Period. That is stated clearly in the Catechism.


Originally posted by budski
What surprises me is the arrogance inherent in the popes statement - "we're the only real ones, the rest of you just copied us" - he'll be sticking out his tongue and going nah nah nah nah nah next.

Like I said ... EVERY Christian denomination on the planet says that they are the correct one. If they didn't believe that, then they'd be some other religion.


Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
As a prodestant I find his remarks offensive.

That's becasue you didn't read the full text .. and that's because you don't understand what he said about apostolic churches .. and that's because you are protestant and thus it is inherent in you NOT to like the pope. Check the history of the protestant revolt ...


He has no right to say weither the Prodestant Church is a church or not,

BULL. He has every right to state his religious beliefs. Just as you have every right to state yours. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Deal with


Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Most people couldn't care less what God wants or what the truth is. All most are concerned about is having their own personal beliefs validated.

THAT is 100% true. Absolutely. It's gotta be PC .. nevermind if it's the truth or not.



Originally posted by Shadowflux
Also, Jesus did not create a church, ... suggest you do more research.


matthew 16:18 .. I suggest you do more research as well.


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The most unspeakable evil has been committed in the name of Roman Catholicism - how do followers reconcile themselves to that?


People within the Church sin. We are all sinners. However, their sins do not change the truths of our faith (including - Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.) People who sin don't change spiritual truths.


Originally posted by uberarcanist
Even as a member of the fundamentalist Church of Christ, I don't think Catholics are going to hell. Why isn't the feeling mutual?

EXACTLY WHERE did you see in the Catholic Catechism that is says you are going to hell because you aren't Catholic. It doesn't. You can drop the feeling that Catholics think that way .. it's not part of our teaching or our authentic-Catholic thought process.

BTW .. Those few members of the St. Pius X Society who DO think that way are excommunicated from Rome.


Originally posted by budski
look at the gospel of judas iscariot.




Originally posted by undo
There's no catechism in the bible

So what? Your criticism makes no sense. Every organized group has Standard Operating Procedures. The Catholic Church is no different.


There's no need for a priest to absolve your sins.

Going to God's ambassador and receiving assurance of absolution is biblical. I suggest you check out what King David did .. he received God's forgiveness but he also went to God's chosen representative and received assurance of it.


There's no idol statues.

Moses made the snake idol and raised it up over the heads of the snake bitten Israelites to worship ... God told David to put Cheribum on the ark of the convenant .. etc etc .. Open your bible. You will see plenty of instances of God's people creating statues.

BTW .. stop reading Jack Chick tracts and look at the Catechism. Catholics don't worship statues.


There's no worship of Mary.

The Catholic Church doesn't worship Mary. Read the Catechism.


There's no praying to dead saints.

Scripture is very clear that we are to pray for each other. It is also very clear that the saints pray for us. Tob 12:12, 2 Mac 15:14, Rev 5:8; 8:4, Heb 12:1, 1 thess 3:13, Heb 11:40;12:23, 1 Pet 3:19, Rev 6:9.


Saying Hail Marys doesn't absolve anyone's sins.

The Catholic church doesn't say that it does. Christ absolves sins. Saying prayers is an act of penance separate from the absolution.


Seriously .. ya'll really ought to at least read the Catechism before bashing.


[edit on 7/10/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:15 PM
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P.S. To my post above i'd like to add that this is not in regards to what Christ said, but to what His apostles said. Everyone who believes on Christ is an Apostle, if I'm understanding the text correctly. So consider it like this... what if every word spoken of by any given christian you happen to personally know, was dictated in a letter and then canonized. Same same. Really, the only teachings in the bible that are hard core, are the words of Jesus and the prophecies. Everything else is human retransmission. Good teachings, sure. Always accurate, not even remotely, because they were just people and people make mistakes. Why else would even Paul reveal that he had a thorn in his side (a secret sin problem he was trying to deal with)? It wasn't because he thought 200 years later, someone would take his every word as gospel.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by timeless test
Mad as a bucket of frogs the lot of them...



...Or as dumb as bag of hammers. Even though I am not a Catholic, I always held great admiration and respect for Pope John Paul II; This new guy though, I think he's got a few screws loose somewhere. Where John Paul was all about peace and reconcilliation, Benedict seems intent and even determined to kick up as much dust as possible and piss off anyone and everyone.

Give me the little country church with the old-time hymns and dinner on the lawn anytime.



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