Originally posted by jbondo

and yes we are directed to assemble in groups.

Really??? Hmmm... I don't guess I ever come across that commandment, nor scripture that stipulates that you MUST congregate.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
FF, you never cease to amaze me. Oh, the big powerful pope admits that others have some of the truth? Jeeeeeeeeze....

Another one doesn't bother to read the post ... or the article.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeze ... right back atchya.

FOR THE THIRD TIME -

According to the Catholic faith .... Apostolic church = true church. Christian churches = churches. Only apostolic churches = 'true churches' (as in have apostolic succession).

It's not that hard to understand. Ya'll are just having too much fun bashng to bother to try to understand the semantics.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Christ was against organized religion, period.

I don't think so. I guess it's a matter of scripture interpretation, but I really think the opposite.

Scripture states that Christ went to the synagoge 'as He was in the habit of doing ... ' (don't remember exactly where that is) and He also said that He would 'build His church ... ' Matthew 16-18 ...

If he was against organized religion He wouldn't have went to the Synagoges and He wouldn't have given His stamp of approval by preaching in them. At least .. I don't think He would have.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Well you could outlaw organized religion but then again what constitutes organized religion.

I wouldn't support such a measure. While I may not agree with dogma, I wouldn't want to take anyone's right to worship as they wish. That is the difference between secularists and myself.

A secularists wants to do away with religion altogether, not me. I suppose it's because I am a very spiritual person and I do believe in God and Jesus, albeit, probably a bit differently than churchgoers do.

Would I fight for the right of religion to exist? Certainly. Just because I disagree with much of the orthodox dogma does not give me, nor anyone else, the right to pass measures that would restrict their existence.

Scripture states that Christ went to the synagoge 'as He was in the habit of doing ... ' (don't remember exactly where that is) and He also said that He would 'build His church ... ' Matthew 16-18 ...

If he was against organized religion He wouldn't have went to the Synagoges and He wouldn't have given His stamp of approval by preaching in them. At least .. I don't think He would have.

He went to the synagogue to correct them of their error, not to prop them up.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

You didn't read my post, did you?

Like i said, it's more fun to bash the pope and/or the Catholic faith then to understand the CONTEXT that the statement was made in. Go back and read the entire article. .... and my post.

In Roman Catholicism Apostolic church = THE true church.
Other churches are churches but not 'true churches' ... as in - not apostolic.

It's not that hard to understand ... if you really wanted to understand what he said.

I'm not bashing Catholics or anyone, I understand what you're saying, but it's no different than when an Imam says that only Islam is the true religion, or if a Rabbi were to say Judaism is the true religion. It's very offensive to those excluded by such statements and they bare no truth in them what so ever. Just because the Pope says something doesn't make it true.

Obviously the Pope would say that only Catholics follow the true religion, he's the leader of all Catholics. He certainly isn't a follower of Jesus.

Have we ever known Jesus to be exclusive?

Jesus never called himself the leader of religion, the head
of anything. God is the leader of all religions and the head
of them all. I never listened to the pope and I never believed
in a human, being higher and closer to God because we
are all born equal.
I also don't listen to any religion which is sitting on their own
bank. Jesus never needed money and I never really understood
why the churches needed the money but I know now.
They use the money to expand their empire and rule over more
people.

Oh Yeah and to buy the pope all his fly gear and pimped out rides!

Originally posted by FlyersFan
You didn't read my post, did you?

Did you read the rest of mine, Flyers I always have agree with the fact that after the first Church in Rome any other church is nothing more than bastard children trying to emulate the First church.

And yes I feel that the position of the pope is of a king or equal to a king.

Truthfully the original church will always be the real one but the rest of Churches around of different denominations are nothing more than groups of people that wanted to preach and interpret the bible anyway they wanted for personal and religious gain.

Even if the Pope didn't mean or didn't said that Christian Churches are not real Churches, I find that to be actually with some truth to it.

Just my opinion.

Sadly we see how the Catholic church becomes the target of bashing by none Catholic followers the same way we bash Islam or any other religion in the world that is not like ours regardless what denomination of Christian church we may follow.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Gee, I read all of this, and I see G. W. Bush. with his whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude.

Thankfully, I am a Native American, and to me the concept of organized worship is as idiotic as the idea of tap dancing fish. How some people ever came to the idea, and others accepted it, that any relationship between man and a Creator could be other than totally personal is beyond me.

But then, I realize that the Catholic church has confession, where people feel the need to discuss their sex lives, so I guess nothing is too personal for some folks.

Well said my good friend


J.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

either the pope is ignorant to the gravity of his words, or he is being calculated in his position. My family is catholic, I understand where you're coming from, and what you are saying. That doesn't mean I am agreeing with your interpretation of his statement.

We all know how the Vatican looks at the defectors.

I look at the Vatican like the president. Here you have a constitution/Bible that is beautiful, but what do you say we instead work from my arbitrary executive orders.

AAC

Originally posted by Shadowflux
it's no different than when an Imam says that only Islam is the true religion, or if a Rabbi were to say Judaism is the true religion.

ALL religions say they are the ones to get it all right. If they didn't believe that .. then they'd all be off in some other religion.

It's very offensive ...

Only to those who care. Most people understand that every religion says that they are 'the one'. I don't care if those in Islam say that I am not in the 'true faith'. I don't care if fundamentalist Christians say that I'm not a true Christian (I think they are idiots .. but I'm not offended because I don't care what they think)

He certainly isn't a follower of Jesus.

That's your opinion but I'll leave you with this -
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Have we ever known Jesus to be exclusive?

The Catholic faith welcomes everyone who believes what the faith preaches. If you dont believe it .. then why would you want to be Catholic anyways? There is nothing 'exclusive' about it.

Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.

Again, we are only arguing the utter stupidity of such an arbitrary position. What do they say about other apostles that were obscured by the church? All the other Gospels that were disregarded. *and please don't give me the churches reason, only because it is a garbage reason*

There is no sanctity outside of the church? Bull----!

AAC

Originally posted by FlyersFan
To be a 'true church' in Catholicism one must have apostolic succession. Without it you are 'a church' but not 'a true church'.

The Catholic Catechism says that ALL CHRISTIAN FAITHS have some truth, to varying degrees, in them. The Catholic Catechism also says that only the Catholic faith has it all correct and is therefore 'THE church'.

Every faith believes they are the ones to have it right and that all others have only part - or none- of it right.

Well - ironically - to say the least - the catholic church doesn't have 'apostolic succession' either The only church that could perhaps claim it (if you believe that sort of nonsense) is the early christian church: AKA the 'Gnostic Church'. The very same church that was hounded almost out of existence by the early catholic movement. According to most recent biblical research, 'Paul' (or 'Saul' - who started the catholic church supposedly) was not one of Jesus' followers - in fact, he was shunned and despised by the 'apostles' - who were the original gnostic 'Church of Jerusalem'.

Hilarious.

J.


mod edit, to shorten link and fix BB code


[edit on 10-7-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by marg6043



Did you read the rest of mine, Flyers I always have agree with the fact that after the first Church in Rome any other church is nothing more than bastard children trying to emulate the First church.

I don't think you should use the term "bastard child" when describing other denominations. A more accurate term would be an Updated Church, since Martin Luther started protestantism as a revolt against the indecencies of the Catholic Church. You call it a "bastard child" as if you believe people should be allowed to buy their way into heaven as they did before Luther.

If all other churches are "bastard children" because they are based off the "original church" then by your logic the Catholic church is a Cannibalized church since they pretty much took Jesus's teachings and then formed committees in charge of deciding how everyone should pray, worship and believe. Read the history of the Nicene Creed.

Also, Mormonism wouldn't fall under your "bastard" classification since it is quite different from the other denominations.

I have noticed a bit of a superiority complex in many Catholic followers, which is why I'm not that surprised by the Pope's recent message.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I don't care if those in Islam say that I am not in the 'true faith'. I don't care if fundamentalist Christians say that I'm not a true Christian (I think they are idiots ..

I'm sure your GOD is proud of that position.

AAC

This is just an excuse for the churches to be united together.
More money for the pope.

Funny how people of different religious views instead of uniting for a common goal of glorifying the Saviour and unified with one god for the good of humanity spend most of the time fighting with each other about what church is better than what church.

No wonder peace in the world will never be achieved and we are so mean to each other and our fellow human beings.

No wonder is people that feels Superior than others and nations that use war to show their powers all while hiding behind religion.

If anybody ask me what is the biggest evil ever born in this world.

I will say, Organized religion.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Have we ever known Jesus to be exclusive?

The Catholic faith welcomes everyone who believes what the faith preaches.

Unless of course you happen to be gay, an unmarried mother, a couple "living in sin", suicidal, use condoms, are pro-choice etc etc etc


Jesus didn't found a church, He gave us lessons by which we should live, he placed people in charge of spreading the Good Word. He did not place one man in charge of all theology and worship. Your argument for Apostolic Succession is completely moot.

Jesus spoke out against organized religion VERY often.

Edit: btw The Good Word, the Gospel, the message Jesus was trying to get across is this:

YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED!!!

Hence, you need no church, Pope or priest to save you.

If we're not already saved, then why did Jesus die on the cross?

[edit on 10-7-2007 by Shadowflux]

An awful lot of talk here designed to muddy the waters and get away from what was posted/said in the OP.

I really don't think that this is the place for mentioning other religions or their failings - and a thread aimed at the shortcomings of a particular sect of christianity is fair enough, unless you happen to wear rose coloured specs.

Not all threads on the shortcomings of catholicism are "catholic bashing", much as some wish that were the case.

As far as I can tell, this is not about the following:
other denominations and their faults
other religions and their faults

What surprises me is the arrogance inherent in the popes statement - "we're the only real ones, the rest of you just copied us" - he'll be sticking out his tongue and going nah nah nah nah nah next.
But it's about what I expect from the vatican.

The power of the pope is amazing. CNN is at this time reporting that there is a three alarm fire at the Freewill Baptist church in Baltimore.



Witnesses had said that a lightning bolt hit the steeple, starting the blaze.