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Pope Says, "Christian Churches not real Churches."

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posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by Karilla
Hi, Shearder, I just wondered if you could provide some recent examples of Catholic priests going to prison for child abuse. Thanks.


You are not reading everything and losing the plot Karilla... i DID post something recent in my post time stamped posted on 16/7/2007 @ 14:39 but i will post it again:


21 months in prison for Catholic priest Pichette
CBC News, Canada/January 10, 2007

Roman Catholic priest Daniel Pichette will serve 21 months in prison after pleading guilty in Quebec Wednesday to several counts of sexual assault involving Duplessis Orphans more than half a century ago.

www.rickross.com...

I specifically used that one because after MANY years he was sent away at age 80 AND it was for child abuse.

More:


Chicago Priest Gets 5 Years in Prison After Pleading Guilty to Charges of Sexual Abuse of Boys
Monday, July 02, 2007

www.foxnews.com...

You actually just need to do a search and you will see for yourself. Simple really - go to google and check it out - fantastic search engine.

Source

Despite the common perception that clergy who sexually assault children are almost never punished, more than 70 priests and ministers have been sent to prison for child molestation since 1985.




posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 08:02 AM
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here is an update

LA Cardinal offers an apology...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

sorry, but an apology doesn't cover it imo.

its all damage control.

oh and just to add to the above research, great work but and there is a but, many many members of the clergy were offered protection.





[edit on 16-7-2007 by NJE777]



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
This is the point I am making: Crimen solicitationis is indicative of a worldwide policy of absolute secrecy and control of all cases of sexual abuse by the clergy.

As I said above, this was not its purpose but could be used as such. It’s primary purpose and the reason it was drawn up was due to priests abusing the confessional to make sexual propositions and practicing what they shouldn’t in the sexual realm.


Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
At least the BBC is accountable, unlike the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church have been harbouring Pheadophiles for years. The Catholic Church is more Biased than the BBC is. Check their history...

I am 100% with you that this happens and as mentioned, I guess it is hand in hand with protecting one’s own as bad as that is.


Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
Look at whats been happening over in the USA, how many years has ot took those victims to bring those who carried out these abuses to court? Year upon years If everything was above board. Then why hide the fact? Why wait to do something about it. Until those abused brought this to court?

Well sometimes people do not want to come forward when they were younger – and didn’t till many years later. I guess to do with society as a whole looking down on those reporting these abuses. Who knows.


Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
It is not designed for sexual sins as you put it, it was enforced to silence those from reporting abuses that were taken place inside the caltholic church at the time.

Yes, it was perhaps used that way in many cases but that was not its absolute purpose. In fact we still do not know about it 100% in terms of its content due to its surfacing not too long ago and having been secret.


Originally posted by spencerjohnstone

Father Tom Doyle is a canon lawyer. He had a diplomatic career with the Vatican but was sacked after he criticised the church's handling of child abuse.


If the Vatican was not controlling this, then why was this Lawyer sacked? for criticising the chruch's hadnling of these cases?

[Extra removed]
Shall I post all the cases also pending regarding sexual abuse? Going back 20 or 30 years?

Tom Doyle was not only sacked because of the child abuse thing. It was a culmination of a number of things. We really only have his side of things but:

Source


Actually, Father Doyle wrote, Catholics do not have a right to daily Mass, according to church law. Daily Mass is a strong custom, but not "an essential element of the practice" of the faith. He also contradicted Archbishop O'Brien by saying the archbishop's permission was not needed to substitute a communion service on Sunday for a Mass if no Catholic priest was available.
Father Doyle said his memorandum came to the attention of the archbishop when an employee of the Catholic ministry at the base found a copy. The employee, believing that it meant she would lose her daily Mass, sent it to the archbishop's office.
Archbishop O'Brien said Father Doyle's positions had caused him to lose confidence. "There is nothing more important to our priests and our people than the Eucharistic celebration," he wrote in terminating the priest's chaplaincy. "Your refusal to accept that and your attempt to provide an alternate authority on that issue is unacceptable."

Also, the document does not mention how these indiscretions should be treated as it was not in the scope of the document to cover that.
No need to post links to all these cases. The point is that they have not disappeared and are being addressed contrary to them not being dealt with.



[edit on 16/7/2007 by shearder]



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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Hmmmm, more than 70 priests since 1985. That was phrased to make it sound like alot, but it doesn't seem so to me. Not when you consider how many people in America are going to receive the pay-off.

In my opinion the only cases that get to court are the ones that attract media attention, the ones the public get to hear about. The real extent of sexual abuse in the Catholic church has to be greater than that.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by shearder
I was brought up a Catholic and I believe in God and if man, i.e. the Pope, or any one representing the church, sins, it is on his head and he needs to ask forgiveness - i will not bash him as he needs answer for what he has done. This also holds true for those a thousand years ago - perhaps they had a personal game plan and many suffered but that did not echo what God wanted as far as i believe.



I do understand and you obviously believe that the Roman Church is the one true Church, but what if you are wrong. These men act knowing that they have a devoted following, it is only because of the numbers of these followers that they are assured of their immunity. Many Popes have committed repeated acts of evil, they may have confessed and asked for forgiveness but how does that help the many who have suffered at their hands.

The atrocities committed in the name of Catholicism in the Second World War under the cover of Nazism are but one example. Not only did the Pope offer silent sanction to the perpetrators, he invited them to an audience and offered them his blessing. Their spiritual leader Cardinal Stepinac was beatified by Pope John Paul II in 1998. In 2003 Pope John Paul II visited the former Yugoslavia and apologised for the atrocities committed against the serbians.

Franciscan monks assisted in the murder of over 500,000 serbian orthodox christians and the forced conversion to Catholicism of a further 250,000. Pope Pius XII was kept fully informed of these events by Stepinac and other Bishops and Clergymen. He never once denounced them, he never once asked them to stop, rather he encouraged pro-Ustasha literature to be circulated in Catholic publications.

When the war was lost and these men correctly branded war criminals the Pope ensured that they evaded capture, he allowed them sactuary in houses of God, his bankers laundered their blood money and he ensured that 34,000 of them had the papers they required to reach safety in South America. In fact they were able to continue their careers in the service of Peron and continue to murder in the name of Roman Catholicism. Only those captured were expelled from the Church.

Those Serbs, Jews and Roma who were luckily enough to survive the massacres and the labour camps, and there were only a few, have launched a class action against the Vatican Bank for the return of the assets that were stolen from them and which were laundered by the Church. The Vatican has cited that it has political immunity and therefore does not have to answer the charges. The case so far has been supported by the US courts where it was filed, the Church though continues to prevaricate and it is expected that it will continue to do so until not a single survivor remains.

I do understand that you believe in God and that you were born a Catholic, but you must also understand that in my eyes you are saying that the above does not affect the sancity of the faith, because men sin and it is the individual that must accept his judgement. Your Church is the sinner, not the men, they are merely corrupted by the power it provides. As long as you and others CHOOSE to follow this evil it will continue to exist. Without you it is nothing, it is you that validates its behaviour.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Karilla
In my opinion the only cases that get to court are the ones that attract media attention, the ones the public get to hear about. The real extent of sexual abuse in the Catholic church has to be greater than that.

Well, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it but unless it's proven beyond doubt as fact, it remains your opinion. You second remark is speculation - it's as if your opinion is correct and the fact of the matter is the situation is a lot worse - kind of like no matter what the truth is or isn't, you have made up your mind that it is all much much worse. No worse in fact than any other vocation like teaching; but this isn't about teachers



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I do understand and you obviously believe that the Roman Church is the one true Church, but what if you are wrong.


Nope - I don't see how it is obvious I believe the Catholic church is the one true church. I never indicated or mentioned this at all.


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
These men act knowing that they have a devoted following, it is only because of the numbers of these followers that they are assured of their immunity.
Many Popes have committed repeated acts of evil, they may have confessed and asked for forgiveness but how does that help the many who have suffered at their hands.

Perhaps in centuries gone by it has happened that Popes have committed acts of evil but i do not believe it still takes place or has done in the last 200 years?! Ok, "these men" is pretty much a generalization considering the Catholic Church is made up of women as well - nuns. However, I don't think they do these things because they think they will get away with it but because they are human and sin. I am not protecting them because they are not immune at all - perhaps it takes a while to get them but it does in the end. Again, i am not saying that some don't get away with it - so do people who murder sometimes get away with it - doesn't make Catholic leaders more special because they are Catholic.


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The atrocities committed in the name of Catholicism in the Second World War under the cover of Nazism are but one example. Not only did the Pope offer silent sanction to the perpetrators, he invited them to an audience and offered them his blessing. Their spiritual leader Cardinal Stepinac was beatified by Pope John Paul II in 1998.

Now, based on what you mentioned above, I have also found many conflicting articles. The most interesting of which is praise for Cardinal Stepinac. I believe it depends what side of the fence one is sitting and which twisting of the facts suites a person best. You posted the negative version so i will post the positive version
There will always be the "truth" from different perspectives.

Source

According to solidly based data he saved several hundred Jews during the WW2: either by direct action, or by secret rescripts to the clergymen, including mixed marriages, conversion to Catholicism, as did some Righteous in other European countries (in Greece for instance).

Already in 1936 Stepinac began to support materially and by other means Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria in Croatia. In 1937, while only 39 years old, he became Archbishop. In 1938 he founded "Action for help to refugees." Archbishop Stepinac also founded Croatian Caritas. In January 11, 1939 he sent a request to 298 addresses of eminent Croats asking for help:



Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Your Church is the sinner, not the men, they are merely corrupted by the power it provides. As long as you and others CHOOSE to follow this evil it will continue to exist. Without you it is nothing, it is you that validates its behaviour.


I do not see how the Church itself is the sinner! What you are also saying is that I am evil because you believe the church is evil because i belong to the church. It's likened to saying that the teaching profession or police services or medical services is the sinner/evil because those professions ALSO harbour entities that prey on innocent people - and it isn't the people themselves that prey on the innocent. That is exactly the same analogy.

I do not sanction evil nor do i pray to it or support it to any extent.

God is in the reason i go to church not because i want to hear some dude talk my ear off about him. if you believe in God it is probably the same God!! Priests etc are just servants and if they sin it is not the church that sins, or we may as well punish all teachers, cops and or doctors because they too are all sinners because they belong to those professions.

[edit on 17/7/2007 by shearder]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Franciscan monks assisted in the murder of over 500,000 serbian orthodox christians and the forced conversion to Catholicism of a further 250,000. Pope Pius XII was kept fully informed of these events by Stepinac and other Bishops and Clergymen. He never once denounced them, he never once asked them to stop, rather he encouraged pro-Ustasha literature to be circulated in Catholic publications.


Though the common assumption "where there is smoke there is fire" can be applied in this case, i believe the truth is more than what can be placed into this thread and needs to be researched outside and one's own mind made up. The truth is yours to determine. However, many books and publications have been published by anti-catholics regarding these alleged WWII atrocities.

Source

The Pope secretly worked to save as many Jewish lives as possible from the Nazis, whose extermination campaign began its most intense phase only after the War had started. It is here that the anti-Catholics try to make their hay: Pius XII is charged either with cowardly silence or with outright support of the Nazi extermination of millions of Jews.

Much of the impetus to smear the Vatican regarding World War II came, appropriately enough, from a work of fiction—a stage play called The Deputy, written after the War by a little-known German Protestant playwright named Rolf Hochhuth.


Now i do not, for one moment say that there were perhaps unknown atrocities, there probably were, but I also believe there is more than what meets the eye and there are truths from both sides and sometimes there needs to be smoke screens where some may be sacrificed to save many - my opinion only.

Also, i notice in your post you do not mention how many Jews or others were saved by the "Catholic Church" during WWII - which was being led by Pope Pius XII - I assume it was an honest omission.

Edit to add: More on Pius XII

[edit on 17/7/2007 by shearder]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by NJE777
here is an update
LA Cardinal offers an apology...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
sorry, but an apology doesn't cover it imo.
its all damage control.

I am Catholic, was born Catholic and will remain a Catholic - however, that in no way makes me accept what some have done based on their position in the church. I know that some DO abuse their powers but that is not a reflection on me and my belief in God or other church goers. That does not make me evil or the church as a whole evil. It's like saying if a cop commits a crime ALL cops are bad.

There will always be damage control AND if the person or organization offers an apology it should be accepted for what it is but should not exonerate the offender in serious cases of abuse etc where, for EXAMPLE, a child was molested because I have a daughter and I would expect that the full extent of the law be applied.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 05:19 PM
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JUDGEMENT!

It is not love my friends which is what religion should be about, what God should be about, what HUMANS could be about.

LOVE not WAR



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 07:44 PM
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Jesus never wanted to establish a church, just a righteous way of life for all religions. Read the bible.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by Gorman91]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:00 PM
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This is nothing new. It is just receiving reenforcement from a pope alive right now. He's merely reminding catholics what is considered an absolute of the catholic church.

This is also a doctrine of the catholic church which is untrue. Moslems are saved.

www.chick.com...

www.romancatholicteachings.com...



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:09 PM
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If muslims are saved why can't thay stop killing each other. Oh wait shouldn't have said that because christians are the same. WE ARE ALL SAVED IDIOT. Jesus said that, well, not the idiot part. Simply follow the golden rule in whatever religion you are in and all is fine for you.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
WE ARE ALL SAVED IDIOT. Jesus said that, well, not the idiot part. Simply follow the golden rule in whatever religion you are in and all is fine for you.


So according to your interpretation of the Golden Rule it would be OK for me to call you an idiot also? From my take on the Golden Rule it is not.

Since we are giving Bible lessons, here's one. Calling someone a name is the beginning of murder. How?

Sin begins with a thought. Thoughts become expressed in words. Words become actions. Calling someone an idiot indicates hatred. Hatred left unchecked and allowed to go through to the end can result in an actual murder.

















[edit on 17-7-2007 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:41 PM
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I just want to emphasize one thing - who we are talking about here. Who it is that are up to their same old tricks again = the ROMAN catholic church. There is actually more than one form of Catholicism in Existence. The Word "Catholic" simply means "Universal" as God's Love & Salvation should be!

As for the ROMAN catholic church being the only "Real" Christian Church - yes of-course it is highly laughable - we have been laughing at the Emperor of Rome er... I mean the Pope for a WHILE now!



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

So according to your interpretation of the Golden Rule it would be OK for me to call you an idiot also? From my take on the Golden Rule it is not.

Since we are giving Bible lessons, here's one. Calling someone a name is the beginning of murder. How?

Sin begins with a thought. Thoughts become expressed in words. Words become actions. Calling someone an idiot indicates hatred. Hatred left unchecked and allowed to go through to the end can result in an actual murder.



[edit on 17-7-2007 by dbrandt]


I stand corrected, but I'm only human. Good point. WOW, never thought of that. But Jesus did indeed say that he did not intend to found a church, just a way of life to get to heaven. "Love thy neighbor as thy self" is all Jesus ever wanted us to do. Boy, in 2000 years did we screw that one up big time.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente


As for the ROMAN catholic church being the only "Real" Christian Church - yes of-course it is highly laughable - we have been laughing at the Emperor of Rome er... I mean the Pope for a WHILE now!


I miss John Paul 2 already.



posted on Jul, 18 2007 @ 12:44 PM
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The basic concept of Christianity is faith in an omnipresent God. Quite how the Catholic Church can translate this into meaning that God can only be properly worshipped in their special buildings and according to their special rules is something of a mystery.


Not so Timeless Test.

I am a Catholic, but do not go to church on a regular basis. I believe that my church is my heart. I pray to God everyday, and feel close to Him at all times.

Special rules? there are none. Our religion imposes itself on no one, we don't go door to door begging people to follow us. You don't believe in what I do, so be it. I still respect your beliefs or religion, or if you're atheist, good for you.

As for the Head of the Church, the Vatican, I have argued with my wife countless times that we don't need to place the Pope and priests on a pedestal. They are human just like us. I have argued that if the Vatican really wanted to follow Jesus, they should take the example of St. Francis of Assissi and give their wealth to the truy needy of this world. I see these people as people who should guide us Catholics in our faith if we so choose to be guided; hence going to Church every Sunday.

I feel strong and very close to God, so i don't choose to go to Mass every Sunday, as well I am a bit lazy to go. I beleive the way i live my life in my faith will bring me closer to God than by going to mass regularly. Mind you I still go to Mass but not often as other people.

[edit on 18-7-2007 by niato007]



posted on Jul, 18 2007 @ 02:32 PM
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^ Yea, I go to church every Sunday, and its not much different. They've changed the message to live free and respect all, but defend the faith too. I guess their in a changing period as nothing makes much sense anymore. I think the Pope keeps his wealth for things such as supporting the church in taxes and such, also to help out medical problems too. Well, I think the reason everyone is hating catholics today is because we are weak. We no longer fight for our faith. We fight for God, yea I guess, but everyone wants to put us down so we become a dead religion, little do they know that it will never happen. Damn abuses by filthy priests piss me off though, they got to do physiological tests on new members.



posted on Jul, 18 2007 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by shearder
Though the common assumption "where there is smoke there is fire" can be applied in this case, i believe the truth is more than what can be placed into this thread and needs to be researched outside and one's own mind made up. The truth is yours to determine. However, many books and publications have been published by anti-catholics regarding these alleged WWII atrocities.

I have researched the topic and I can catagorically state that there is more than just smoke. I only learnt of these massacres a couple of weeks ago from another thread on ATS, and I have since been reading up about it. It is well documented. There is substantial photographic and film evidence. There is a lot of fire, and actually it is not that hard to find either. The only people not talking about it are the Vatican. If you check official press releases from the Vatican on the subject, note how they very carefully word their response around the issue because they cannot deny the charges. The charges are standing up in court.

I never mentioned the Jews, I never accused the Vatican of anti-semitism, I was specifically talking about the persecution of Serbian Orthodox Christians as I felt it was relevant to the thread as it invloved a fairly recent example of RCCs enforcing their faith on other Christians.

Many of the Ustasha leaders were married to Jews or had some relationship to Jews. Jews were not specifically targeted by the Ustasha and this caused some conflict with the Nazis. They did eventually have to comply with the Nazis and deport the Jews, but not before those who were supportive of the Ustasha regime were given Baptism papers as RCCs and or given refuge in South America if necessary. The Jews they let go to their certain deaths were poor people who had no-one to defend them.


Originally posted by shearder
Source

The Pope secretly worked to save as many Jewish lives as possible from the Nazis, whose extermination campaign began its most intense phase only after the War had started. It is here that the anti-Catholics try to make their hay: Pius XII is charged either with cowardly silence or with outright support of the Nazi extermination of millions of Jews.

Much of the impetus to smear the Vatican regarding World War II came, appropriately enough, from a work of fiction—a stage play called The Deputy, written after the War by a little-known German Protestant playwright named Rolf Hochhuth.


The Vatican plays up its defence of the Jews and undoubtably Jews were saved by the Church. It is a fallacy that Jews were the victims of the Inquisition, they weren't, it was only Jews that converted but continued practising Judaism - the Conversos and the other Christian faiths - heretics. The RCC church recognises both Abraham and Mohammed - they are infidels but they have not been specifically persecuted by the RCC. Mainly heretics were persecuted by the Catholic Church in the Inquisitions not infidels. The Vaticans only quarrel with the infidels is one of territory.


Originally posted by shearder
Now i do not, for one moment say that there were perhaps unknown atrocities, there probably were, but I also believe there is more than what meets the eye and there are truths from both sides and sometimes there needs to be smoke screens where some may be sacrificed to save many - my opinion only.

This is not an "unknown atrocity",it is very well documented. It is however very under-reported, more than amply demonstrating the power that the Vatican has over western media. Why is the media so focused on the Holocaust and the horrors committed against the Jews? Could it be because the Church did not actively participate and in some case even aided favoured Jews to escape? The Vatican is diverting our attention away from their own crimes. Because they DID participate in the murder of orthodox christians, because they DID threaten the lives of those who wouldn't convert and then often killed them anyway.

There are hundreds of documents - letters, even reports and complaints made to the Nazis about the Ustasha. Many Franciscan monks actively and ethusiastically participated in murder, in some cases their names are known and they are/were wanted war criminals. The other source you quote is Croatian - the Ustasha were Croatian. I would expect them to play down the evidence and again emphasise the Jewish angle.


Originally posted by shearder
Also, i notice in your post you do not mention how many Jews or others were saved by the "Catholic Church" during WWII - which was being led by Pope Pius XII - I assume it was an honest omission.

Edit to add: More on Pius XII

[edit on 17/7/2007 by shearder]


If by honest omission you mean that it was not the subject of the thread and therefore off-topic - then yeah it was an honest omission. There are numerous threads relating to the persecution of the Jews, this thread relates to whether the Pope was right to state that the RCC is the one true Church and what that implies. The Church has long demonstrated that it wants Christian Hegemony - for this aim they have sought to destroy the heretics, the Jews are merely a source of plunder, have been for centuries ever since the first Crusades this is how wars have been funded. Wars incited by the Vatican that is, which by definition includes the Second World War.

www.jasenovac-info.com...

www.chuckbaldwinlive.com...

www.remnantofgod.org...

www.srpska-mreza.com...

www.ainfos.ca...



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