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Scientology, Ask Me A Question And I'll Try To Answer

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posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Wow great pics!
But, with Scientology it looks like they just borrowed their architecture from Rome. Notice the pillars and plaques and curvy designs.

Also, did you find it strange that all of the people walking down the street wore exactly the same clothing? White collared dress shirt and dark pants. I'm not making any accusations, but they certainly look like a cult.


Yeah wow, they are great pictures, I can't thank zysin5 enough for taking the time to get them on this thread.

But you mentioned the buildings and clothing.
They actually didn't borrow any architecture from any era or other source.

The building you see everyone coming out of is actually an old bank that Scientology purchased as is and did some restoration work on. The pillars were there long before the Church was, and I believe it was the second building they bought after the Fort Harrison Hotel.
Any new construction is done in a way that it blends in with the local architecture. And you have to admit that they've made a lot of improvements in the area, and along with the improvements has come a decrease in crime in the area.

As far as the clothing goes, those are uniforms of staff members. People that come to Clearwater for courses or auditing just wear normal street clothes.
Having the staff wear uniforms is no different than a Nun's Habit or the saffron robes of a Monk. Scientology staff uniforms just don't stand out as much unless they're in a group.




posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 11:47 AM
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Just to give you some idea of the properties owned by the Church of Scientology in the Clearwater area I searched for tax records for the area.
I found 39 properties owned directly by the Flag Service Org. & the Church, but this is probably not all of them. The information is almost 7 years old, and there are many other properties owned privately by Scientologists that would not be listed here.

See the link below for value and taxation figures.


Owner: CoSFSO
Address: 1840 N. Ft. Harrison Ave. (Bayside Motel)

Owner: CoSFSO
Address: 1824 N. Ft. Harrison Ave. (Tradewinds Motel)


Owner: CoSFSO
Address: 1850 N. Ft. Harrison Ave. (Clipper Motel)

lisatrust.freewinds.cx...


Notice about 9 hotels and motels on that list, but there are also many other housing units that aren't listed.

I also came across a figure that Scientology contributes almost $97 million dollars to the local economy by the money they spend in restaurants, hotels, car rentals, theaters, grocery stores, and all that other stuff.

There are also an estimated 12,000 Scientologists living in the Clearwater area as permanent residents. That doesn't include the thousands that come for training every year.

I think any community would be glad to have a group like this around because you won't see Scientologists mugging old ladies or begging on the street.



Edit: tinkering

[edit on 16/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]


Edit: Removed massive quote.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by chissler]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:54 AM
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Utter bleakness; These pictures creep me out really 1984 anyone?



Is that the thought police exiting lol

Also reminds me of the movie Equilibrium. Ugh the architecture is very ominous and of course they use the two pillars at the entrance. (AKA Joachim and Boaz Columns.)



They should rename Church of Scientology to something like Ministry of Scientology lol (1984 theme)

Great pictures btw !



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder

You're right that beliefs are free, but you still need to pay for the building you worship in. The Catholics have imposed a tithe on the flock for hundreds of years, and that was set at 10%.


Yes, but they don't sell tickets at the door of the church or demand that you pay large sums of money to become more spiritually minded. Also, while a tithe of 10% is biblical and suggested as accepted practice, there is no enforcement of the tithe, either in Catholicism or Protestantism; you can attend either type of church every day for the rest of your life and, while they may pass around the collection plate, you are not obligated to put anything into it and you can still soak up all the teaching and tradition you want for free. The same can not be said of Scientology.

One last point, the tithe that Christians(either Catholic or Protestant)pledge each week or month is money pledged to God as a thank offering or sacrifice for His goodness in making it possible for them to have money in the first place; it is not a charge for admisssion or for covering the basic overhead of the church, although a part of each months offerings may serve that purpose. So, how can you compare what Scientology does in telling people, that if they want to advance and become more "clear", it's going to cost them more money?



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 12:47 PM
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lightseeker is going to make me work hard to prove a point.........


We can take a trip through history first.


The Tithe War in Ireland (1831-36)
The payment of tithes was an obligation on those working the land to pay an annual tithe of 10% of the value of certain types of agricultural produce for the upkeep of the church. On the introduction of the Penal Laws from the 1600s, these payments went to the Anglican (Episcopal) Church of Ireland, despite the fact that the vast majority of the population were Roman Catholic. Despite Daniel O’Connell’s achievement of having most remaining Penal Laws repealed in 1829 (Catholic Emancipation), the obligation to pay tithes remained. More often than not, tithes were collected in the form of goods, especially livestock, as opposed to payment of monies, as little cash was available in the countryside.
en.wikipedia.org...



Or further back in time.


Charlemagne's desire was, first, to re-establish the authority of the city of Rome. It was obvious he greatly admired Rome, as even his palace featured Roman-inspired architecture and decoration. And secondly, Charlemagne sought to defend the Church of St. Peter. He used his authority to protect the ecclesiastical property and provide the church with support materially. This included the enforcement of the tithe, a 10% tax of income on all Christians to support the church.
www.thenagain.info...



But back to present day, Churches charge fees for many things, including educating your child in a Catholic school, performing baptisms, weddings, burials, books, etc...


* Cemetery Plots $ 1,112.80
* Ash Plots $ 486.85

* Single Crypt $ 4,173.00
* Double Crypt $ 6,329.05

* Section STB (Children) $374.50
includes opening and closing

in addition to the plot prices, the following fees apply:

May 1- October 31

* Opening & Closing (Monday to Friday) $ 428.00
* Opening & Closing (Saturday to 12:00pm) $ 535.00
* Opening & Closing (Saturday after noon) $ 642.00

* Ash Opening & Closing (Monday to Friday) $ 160.50
* Ash Opening & Closing (Saturday to 12:00pm)$ 214.00
* Ash Opening & Closing (Saturday afternoon) $ 267.50

* Crypt Entombment (Monday to Friday) $ 160.50
* Crypt Entombment (Saturday to 12:00pm) $ 267.50
* Crypt Entombment (Saturday after noon) $ 374.50
www.stnicholaschurch.ca...




The use of this particular Church for a wedding or other event.


There is a fee of $175.00CAD for the use of the church, to help defray the costs of upkeep.
www.fairmont.com...



Teaching isn't free, but here's a quote of additional costs over enrollment.


Please note: Annual total of General Fees, Extended Fees and monies collected for field trips are not to exceed $90 for Kindergarten, $95 for Elementary and $120 for Junior High.

Noon Supervision Fee
To a maximum of $8/student/month, with consideration given for a discount to families of two or more children. School communities may establish lunchroom fees that address their local needs within this maximum.

District Music Fee
The District has currently in place a common music fee for both junior and senior high schools set at:
Instrument rental - $100
Music materials - $25

Textbook/Software Rental Fee
This service is provided at all Catholic high schools at a cost of $90.
www.cssd.ab.ca...

See the link for further prices.


Even a garden party costs money.


Hosted by Catholic Family Services Foundation.

* Dinner, live entertainment,and dance
* Purchase tickets for two fundraising raffles:
o win a fabulous landscape design package
o win a trip for two to Victoria and the Butchart Gardens
* Program,dance and prize draws to follow dinner.


Tickets for the Garden Party: $100/person (partial charitable donation tax receipt). Tickets for dance only $25.00/person (no charitable receipt)
www.cfssaskatoon.sk.ca...



It costs the faithful money to be born, and to live, and they get you at the back door when you die.
Every organization needs money to survive.

But like any other Church, you can attend services at a Scientology Church at no cost. You don't have to buy a ticket at the door, and don't be shy about letting the collection plate pass you by.
You're not required to make a donation to hear a sermon.



[edit on 17/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder
lightseeker is going to make me work hard to prove a point.........


AD - I don't dispute the fact that at certain times in the past the Catholic Church has assesed a 10% tithe on land owners in Ireland or that the Church charges extra money for attendance at a private Catholic School or to be buried in a Catholic cemetary. That was not my point, although I must say, you did a marvelous job of steering the conversation away from the point I was initially making, which was: The Catholic Church does not charge you to come to mass or to catechism to learn about Catholicism or Jesus Christ; nor does the Protestant faith. Church is free and if you want to learn what their teachings are all about you can just ask and they will be more than happy to explain it all to you, for free.

In addition, the whole of the Christian concept and belief system is contained in one book, The Bble. Everything you need to know about God and Jesus is available to you for the cost of a bible; what's that you ask, what if you don't have money for a new Bible? Very easy and direct answer, you can have one given to you free by any number of organizations, from the American Bible Society to The Gideons and many, many more. In fact, there are many evangelical organizations that will send you a new copy of The New Testament free of charge just for calling or writing them and asking for one.

Now, if I were to go to my local chapter of the Church of Scientology and say,"Gee, I would really like to learn everything there is to know about Scientology and how it can improve my life", do you really think they would give it to me, without hitting me up for a healthy fee, for all of the courses and "teaching points" that are involved? No, I didn't think so.

I am not a fan of Scientology. I have no animosity or bad feeling for people who have been duped into believing some of the really strange and fantastic dogma that Scientology perports to endorse. However, IMO, Scientology is no more and no less than a scam thought up by L. Ron Hubbard that he based almost entirely in his previously published and unpublished works of science-fiction. He was not the best writer in the world, IMO, and he was and is an even worse "prophet".

I hope that you take this post not as a criticism of you, AD, you're a very nice person and I have enjoyed reading and responding to a lot of your threads and posts; my criticism is not of you but of Scientology as a "religion" and as an organization. I think you even admitted that you had not progresed that far in their teachings and so-forth before you left it behind.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by lightseeker

although I must say, you did a marvelous job of steering the conversation away from the point I was initially making,


My intention wasn't to steer the conversation away from your point, I just felt it was important to point out that money makes the world go around regardless of the organization involved.

I have a number of Bibles on my shelf, and one right beside my computer now.
I have one that I use for highlighting particular passages, one with wide margins that I make notes in, one that was a special gift that I just use for reading. I don't think a day goes by that I don't open one for reference or to just read a favorite passage. I have a particular passion for the Book Of Job.

And I will admit to walking out of a hotel room a few times with a Gideon Bible in my bags.

If you want all the Scientology teachings for free I can help you out with that.

I would start with a Dianetics book, I'm sure you can get one for under $4.00 at a used book store. This book is the entire basis of Scientology.

I'd also like to direct you to a few links that will get you on the Bridge for little or no cost.

www.fzaoint.net...
internationalfreezone.net...
ronsorg.org...

Learn all you want, and it won't cost you a dime..........




I am not a fan of Scientology. I have no animosity or bad feeling for people who have been duped into believing some of the really strange and fantastic dogma that Scientology purports to endorse.


I realize you're not a fan, but people are free to make their own choices in life, and that freedom includes what they choose to study, and what they choose to believe and follow as a religion.

Some people believe the Bible is just a bad joke that simple minded people have been duped into believing, but I guess we shouldn't judge to harshly.:shk:




I hope that you take this post not as a criticism of you, AD, you're a very nice person and I have enjoyed reading and responding to a lot of your threads and posts;


I don't take your post personally at all, but thank-you, sometimes I think nobody reads what I write.

My intention on this thread was never to debate the rights and wrongs of Scientology, but to inform people of what goes on inside the Church from the point of view of someone that had lived and worked inside this organization.
I hope I can inform people without the thread becoming a flame war, and in doing so we all learn a bit more about an organization that many members are curious about.



Edit: For clarity....



[edit on 17/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch



Is that the thought police exiting lol

Also reminds me of the movie Equilibrium. Ugh the architecture is very ominous and of course they use the two pillars at the entrance. (AKA Joachim and Boaz Columns.)


Those people coming out of the Church might be file clerks, secretaries, or accountants for all we know. The only thing for certain is they are staff members of the Church.

And as I said before, the building was purchase by the Church as is back in the 70's. It was originally a bank and Scientology had nothing to do with the architecture.
All they did was change the sign on the front and clean it up during restoration.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 04:36 PM
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Everyone your very welcome!! Finally a thread where I can do some real good!!
When I get some extra time Im going to break this apart for you all

And bring to the table, reports of missing peoples, murders, and all sorts of documented facts and goodies you will find to be just what you are looking for to see this as the Cult it really is!
No disrespect to you anxietydisorder, Im glad to be a part of this thread and bring facts, and feelings to the table here. But I have to agree with lightseeker and others that these people prey on weaker minds.
And when I say weaker minds I dont mean weak as in your not smart or good at things. When I say weaker mind, I mean a mind that is looking for answers, and will take any answer that suits them.
We all do it, but I never attach myself to any one theroy or belife. I never get overly attached to my own ideas, becasue well they are my own. and I need many more to be happy with that.
So Scientololgy offers answers to those willing to just take that one as how it is with no other way.. Your one of the few who seem like you have a good idea about life, and not brainwashed to the point you would get deep into this..
Trust me, many people have been killed here, and turned up missing. I will slowly go to the libary here, and scan some of the real facts and critcal information that will shead even more like on the "darker" side of Scientology.. I dont want to see the bright side of it, as thats what you are here for. I hope you are ready for what I will be showing you in the next week. And in all good motives too I asure you! Thats why I am here, to find subjects where 2 forces can meet that are on opposite sides, and still have a meaningful discussion without bashing or flamming.
To each their own!!


As this is how I work...



Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").

Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.

The above is an excerpt from Carl Sagan that has been identified here.



Admin note: May I please remind you that plagiarism is a violation of our Terms & Conditions.

Note from ATS owner about plagiarism - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Terms & Conditions- www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 18-7-2007 by SimonGray]



posted on Jul, 18 2007 @ 05:09 AM
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We've all seen the early history of Scientology on sites like Operation Clambake, and numerous other sites.
www.xenu.net...

That site is well worth the read, but keep in mind that it is very one sided. For background information it has some excellent information though.

I want you to realize that many of the people involve in previous crimes promoted in the media have been jailed for their criminal acts.

Every Church has a past that can be brought up, but what has Scientology done lately ???
It would be interesting to see if they've continued with some of the tactics they used in the past, or if they've cleaned up their act.


I can give you a good jumping off point for some of the most recent convictions if you want to follow it up, or if you want to research a particular case.
There's a lot of more on the site, so hit the link, but here's some of what is posted there.




Convictions

1999: Greece: Scientologists found guilty
15 Scientologists were accused of systematically keeping files on politicians, journalists, judges, clergymen and other Greek leading personalities. The Scientologists were found guilty, but they were not sentenced, due to procedural errors. (In other words, they got off on a technicality.)

In 1998, a judge ordered the Scientology organization in Athens to stop operating, since the organization was established under false pretenses. According to the ruling, the organization was not operating as a non-profit, and was putting people's mental and physical health at risk.

1997: Italy: Scientologists jailed
29 Scientologists were sentenced to jail for criminal association.

1996: France: Scientology executive found guilty of involuntary homicide
"A former Church of Scientology leader was convicted Friday of involuntary homicide and sentenced to 18 months in prison in the 1988 suicide of a church member. Twelve other defendants facing lesser charges - theft, complicity or abuse of confidence - were given suspended sentences of eight to 15 months each. Charges were dropped against 10 others." The Scientologists were charged in the death of Patrice Vic.

www.scientology-lies.com...



Let's examine some of these on a case by case basis, but please avoid bunching them together as a lot. These cases span the globe and fall within numerous jurisdictions.
Keep in mind that laws are different in every country and state.

But yeah, let's tear into some of this stuff.





EDIT: I wanted to add some stuff without writing a new post.



[edit on 18/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 11:55 AM
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As far as im concerned Scientology is a scam.

*SNIP*

Mod Edit: Removed Excessive Copy & Paste.

[edit on 19/7/2007 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 11:57 AM
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And then right from the horses mouth, I thought you said it was ok to quit scientolgy this makes me think otherwise.

*SNIP*

Mod Edit: Removed Excessive Copy & Paste.

[edit on 19/7/2007 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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Personally, I ignore pretty well everything Ron DeWolf aka Hubbard Jr says. He's a self-admitted liar. Yes, he did give that interview to Penthouse, but he recanted several years later and said he had made it up. But that never gets mentioned anywhere.


PDF file of affadavit where DeWolf says he made it up: www.freewebtown.com...

If you read the whole interview, you'll also see that it was the time period in which he was suing for control of his father's estate because his father was dead. Too bad for him, L Ron was still alive at that point.

I've known other ex-members of Scientology and they had no problem leaving.



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 08:30 AM
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Removed by seridium.

[edit on 123131p://upFriday by seridium]



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by seridium
As far as im concerned Scientology is a scam.

Penthouse Interview With L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
"Scientology and all the other cults are one-dimensional, and we live in a three-dimensional world. Cults are as dangerous as drugs. They commit the highest crime: the rape of the soul." L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
Penthouse, June 1983


Mod Edit: Removed Excessive Copy & Paste.

[edit on 19/7/2007 by Mirthful Me]




I added the link and the title of the Article.
look above

[edit on 123131p://upFriday by seridium]



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by seridium

my quote was off a document that i have on file or else i would have posted the file link, I didnt even search the web for it...


Hey seridium,

Sorry you got a warn over this, but plenty of references to the articles posted by you are available on the web.
I do want to guide you back to the topic of the thread though, and the title is:
Scientology, Ask Me A Question And I'll Try To Answer

I'll do my best to answer any question from my experience while I was a member of the Church of Scientology, but your last three posts have yet to pose a question.

I'll take this topic in any direction you want, but you need to follow the rules of the T&C and remain on topic.



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Personally, I ignore pretty well everything Ron DeWolf aka Hubbard Jr says. He's a self-admitted liar. Yes, he did give that interview to Penthouse, but he recanted several years later and said he had made it up. But that never gets mentioned anywhere.


PDF file of affadavit where DeWolf says he made it up: www.freewebtown.com...

If you read the whole interview, you'll also see that it was the time period in which he was suing for control of his father's estate because his father was dead. Too bad for him, L Ron was still alive at that point.

I've known other ex-members of Scientology and they had no problem leaving.


He clearly states in the affadavit that he Greatly Regrets the things he said in the past about his father to Penthouse no where does it state he was lying or making it up the Affadavit is for a biography about his father L Ron Hubbard Sr and the author of this Biography is using Hubbar Jr as a Co author which he does not want to be. Also I think the biography writer used the context of the Penthouse interview for some elaboration in his biography.

My question is as I read more and more into Scientology it seems it is for weak minded individuals, that some what, I guess you can say "Live in the Past" well in everyday life everyone lives their past expericens on a unconscious level in one sense or another and some individuals really get effected by this and in some way or another it effects their well being, relationships, education and the list goes on. So to me it seems scientology preys on the weak minded and troubled individual for there Preclear auditing process to gain capitail for teh Org? is this the case?
Is this why there is so much scandal in Scientology?

[edit on 123131p://upFriday by seridium]

[edit on 123131p://upFriday by seridium]



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder

Originally posted by seridium

my quote was off a document that i have on file or else i would have posted the file link, I didnt even search the web for it...


Hey seridium,

Sorry you got a warn over this, but plenty of references to the articles posted by you are available on the web.


I find it hard to make a point with a web link and no context but that is just me It is alot easier and to direct my eyes to a sample of info and if I want to know more I will do the rest myself but that is just me.

I thought I followed all guidlines but I guess not.
I used quote boxes
I posted les than 15% of teh article
And I added a link to the Source of my .doc I have on my PC at home not the www

but Hey its only -600 points now



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by seridium

My question is as I read more and more into Scientology it seems it is for weak minded individuals, that some what, I guess you can say "Live in the Past" well in everyday life everyone lives their past expericens on a unconscious level in one sense or another and some individuals really get effected by this and in some way or another it effects their well being, relationships, education and the list goes on.


I hope you don't consider me a weak minded individual. I think you've read enough of my posts that you realize I'm an intelligent and critical thinking person. I've hit 136 - 140 on IQ tests, so I'm no fool.


So to me it seems scientology preys on the weak minded and troubled individual for there Preclear auditing process to gain capitail for teh Org? is this the case?


I think any Org. would rather deal with intelligent people that can understand some very complex course material with a clear mind. They don't want idiots and and persons with limited mental abilities that could drag their stats down.
Stats are everything in any Org.



Is this why there is so much scandal in Scientology?


Much of the scandals result from overzealous members trying to defend the Church from prosecution.



posted on Jul, 20 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by anxietydisorder

I hope you don't consider me a weak minded individual. I think you've read enough of my posts that you realize I'm an intelligent and critical thinking person. I've hit 136 - 140 on IQ tests, so I'm no fool.



Sorry let me rephrase that not weak minded but emotionally and mentally damaged in one way or another you know from physical abuse, mental abuse traumatic events, religion
Im not saying every person is that way that joins, Im just thinking it is a key point to the auditing and so forth you know helping others overcome metal and emotional issues to further help others with the same problems if this is the case then I say its a decent program.
Kinda sounds like Experiential Therapy.



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