Scientology, Ask Me A Question And I'll Try To Answer

Originally posted by LurkerBeast
anxietydisorder, do you agree or disagree that the main purpose and goal of the Church of Scientology is to make money for the ones at the top?

Pardon me, devil's advocate butting in.

Isn't this true of all churches, especially the Catholic one?

To me, all religions are cults. To a religious person all religions other than the one they belong to are cults.

Anxietydisorder, pardon me if you've answered this already, but the Scientologists dropped you because you had a gay relationship. Does this not tend to distance you from them? Or do you still believe that they are right about their other beliefs?

If you do believe in their beliefs, doesn't it set you up for a mental/emotional paradox? Does this effect you in any way in your life, or have you managed to compartmentalize these two things away from each other?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

What pagan symbol would that be. And I realize that the crucifixions have been around long before Jesus, but it has never been used as a religious symbol.

Let's take a brief look at the cross, I'll quote some references that prove it was used as a religious symbol long before being adopted by Christianity.

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read, "In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolized by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman cross.
www.thewordsofeternallife.com...

From the same link above there is also this:

Where did the cross come from, then?
J.C. Cooper, An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, p.45, aptly summarizes it, "Cross--A universal symbol from the most remote times; it is the cosmic symbol par excellence." Other authorities also call it a sun-symbol, a Babylonian sun-symbol, an astrological Babylonian-Assyrian and heathen sun-symbol, also in the form of an encircled cross referred to as a "solar wheel," and many other varieties of crosses. Also, "the cross represents the Tree of Life, the age-old fertility symbol, combining the vertical male and horizontal female principles, especially in Egypt, either as an ordinary cross, or better known in the form of the crus ansata, the Egyptian ankh (sometimes called: the Tau cross), which had been carried over into our modern-day symbol of the female, well known in biology.

This article also gives some information on the origins of the cross.

What is the origin of the cross?

The cross was not widely used in mainstream Christianity until the time of the Roman emperor Constantine—about 300 years after Christ established His Church.

According to the book Babylon Mystery Religion, the cross originated among the ancient Babylonians of Chaldea. From there, it spread to ancient China, India, Mexico, parts of Africa and other places, centuries before Christianity was born.

Notice: “Ages ago in Italy, before the people knew anything of the arts of civilization, they believed in the cross as a religious symbol. It was regarded as a protector and was placed upon tombs. In 46 B.C., Roman coins show Jupiter holding a long scepter terminating in a cross. The Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome wore the cross suspended from their necklaces, as the nuns of the Roman Catholic church do now” (p. 51).

According to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, the shape of the cross “had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt.

“By the middle of the third century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system, pagans were received into the churches…and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence, the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ” (p. 256).
www.thercg.org...

This might be a very informative link to read through as well.

The Ankh in the Mysteries

The symbolism of the Ankh as a key to life is not confined to the Egyptians and appears with the Romans in the god Janus as the opener. The precursor to this appears to have been the Phrygian goddess Cybele who was linked by the Greeks with the mother goddess Rhea.

Cybele’s priests known as Corybantes and her worshipers offered her passionate and intense homage bewailing the death of her lover Attis with solemn ceremonies, chanting and prayers, and then indulging in frenzy, jubilation, and song to herald his spiritual rebirth (Drury, loc. cit., p. 54). Thus the symbolism, particularly of the keys and control of death and rebirth, was easily transferred to Christianity.
ccg.org...

I think you can see that the cross was used as a religious symbol long before it was used by Christianity.

Originally posted by zysin5
I live in clearwater.. So thats right by the homebase of those guys..
Did you ever visit the clearwater offices?

I actually worked at the Fort Harrison during the first part of the renovations and was a good friend with the artist that did all the gold leaf on the crown molding. It's been a long time, but with the new building across the street I'd sure like to visit it again.
You should see the suite on the top floor, it's just amazing.

If anyone would like to see some pictures of these people and the places I would be happy to post them..

Please post some pictures, I'd love to see whatever you have, and any commentary you have on some of the shots you've taken. I really like the Clearwater area, any pics would be greatly appreciated.

They asked me to leave the area when I was taking photos..
and I get asked tons of questions of why I am there, and who I am working for..

I don't think they should ask you to leave a public street, that's just wrong. You have every right to be there as anyone else. Tell them to go screw themselves if they ever do that again. You are also free to take pictures of their buildings and any person on a public street.

Scientologists are very protective of scrutiny because of the number of people that have attacked them. If you film them, expect someone to come out and film you while you're filming, it's an intimidation tactic to limit scrutiny.

Not every Scientology property is open to the public, so just don't enter private property without permission. They have a large security force, an investigative branch, and enough lawyers to prosecute you to the full extent of the law.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Anxietydisorder, pardon me if you've answered this already, but the Scientologists dropped you because you had a gay relationship. Does this not tend to distance you from them? Or do you still believe that they are right about their other beliefs?

They didn't kick me out, and the Church had no thoughts or intentions of asking me to leave. I was the one that chose to leave.
I had been with the Church for about 7 years and I was going to be sent to the RPF, (Rehabilitation Project Force) because of a gay relationship with another member.

The RPF is a very intense and difficult program, if anything in Scientology could be considered brainwashing, this would be it. But most people that I knew in the program did really well, and it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be. News and the web tend to concentrate on a few extreme cases that were wrong, and never should have happened.

If you do believe in their beliefs, doesn't it set you up for a mental/emotional paradox? Does this effect you in any way in your life, or have you managed to compartmentalize these two things away from each other?

I do believe in the precepts of Scientology, and I think it's technology that anyone could use in their lives. I am on a billion year contract, so I guess I'll get back to it someday. It may not be this life time, but I intend to fulfill that agreement at some point in the future.

I don't tend to compartmentalize anything because every experience sort of becomes part of what I am, so it has no adverse effect on my life at all.




EDIT: bbcode & sp

[edit on 14/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]

Thanks for your reply anxietydisorder! I promise you some pictures after this weekend.. Going to see transformers today
Back to topic, Yes I know for sure not to walk into any of those buildings. They keep heavy security there, as big name stars do come there often.
I sit at the coffee house while Tom Cruise passes by me in his limo, or John T. many many stars I have seen personally there.. I mean I live here its my home, so I see it all the time.
These people are extreamly private for a good reason.. Most of them that I was able to talk with understand they are brainwashed. They claim in a good way! I degress, but all the same enjoy getting another aspect into my life journal.
With them asking me to leave I was asking them why? They said becasue of the terroist threat that is of these current days..
Yep more Brainwashed BS, Im a guy with a camera, american born and raised, Im not a terroist for the love of GOD! But they say they dont see color or creed, no one can be walking around their area.. Which is NOT public area. It is owned by them, and they have their own COP force which asked me to keep moving. I didnt give them any greif, becasue giving them greif would end up only greifing myself!
So I go and have a cup of Joe there right on alt 19 coffe house.. they dont own that little patch and cant get me for sitting..
Mind you I have really long hair, and end up falling under your typical stoner stero type. So cops/sercurity see me as a threat.. I suppose.
I dont even smoke, or do drugs.. Im just a long haired artist. looking for the truth in this world..
So I will repost here monday with some updated pics for you..
They are totally revamping the area!! Tons of construction down that way.
the road that the main church is on, is closed and all tore up..
I heard the new section they built isnt being used yet, or doesnt have the permits to finish.. But thats all hersay, as most the people in clearwater see them as a cult, and do not like them in our beautiful city.. However its the land of the free right? So they can do what they want, as long as its not hurting anyone or robbing them of their money every week.
But all these people, they give it up freely, so they are not robbing everyone.
They just prey on people at their weakest. Much like the John Edwards, HOly rolling Preists that want to save your soul. All cults and phonies always use people at their weakest.. When you have bad credit, and are down on your luck with money, they auto send letters to you. Becasue they have a deal with creditors and know when you are down.
They send a letter that promises you much, and preys on your weakness with debt.. Thus earning you a place in their cult "family"
They prey on people who dont have anyone, and feel lonely..
But hey if it makes them happy, who am I to say dont do it..
I sure the hell do what ever I can to make myself happy.. its just totally different than that...

Peace!

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
... I am on a billion year contract, so I guess I'll get back to it someday.

.... wait. That was sarcasm, right? A billion year contract? Do they give you a complimentary wrist-watch if you sign up for a trillion years?

As for the post directed towards me, that wasn't quite what I was talking about. I was talking about crucifixes, not crosses. But, still, good research! I learned a lot, and knowledge is power!

Here's the question I eventually ask every member (former or current) of Scientology I talk to.

Did you consider Scientology your religion or just a useful set of tools that benefit you?

Being homosexual, do you believe that you are a "sinner"? Why? As it is in conflict with your religious beliefs, do you think that you are doing something wrong by being what you are?

What is the science behind the E-meter contraption? How does it read thetan levels?

How do you feel about the "Fair Game" policy created by L. Ron Hubbard? Do you believe that it is necessary and "fair"

HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex

HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967,
Issue IV
Remimeo

PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS

(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)


LIABILITY Suspension of pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day
and night confinement to org premises.

TREASON Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia,
a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or
dismissal from post and debarment from premises.

DOUBT Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine
amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or
processed. Not to be communicated or argue with.

ENEMY SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by
any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.


LRH:jp L. RON HUBBARD
Copyright (c) 1967 Founder
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

www.xenu.net...


Do you believe L. Ron Hubbard to be fallible in any of his teachings?

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Pardon me, devil's advocate butting in.

Isn't this true of all churches, especially the Catholic one?

To me, all religions are cults. To a religious person all religions other than the one they belong to are cults.

Yes, all religions are 'cults', a fraud that enables the ones in power to, keep and expand their power.

As promised, I went and made a day out of this, and got some fresh pictures today I happened to time it just right!! As the church was letting out, and I got some cool photos of them in big groups!
Enjoy!

I will put a little something with each picture to explain whats going on..
So lets start...

This picture here is the walkway that goes over Alt 19, on the mainstretch of road, I never see anyone up there, as its not finished.


This is where the walkway leads to, as you can see its still unfinished.



When you are here, you will be confronted by people taking survays.. They asked me.
What was the first thing you noticed about me?
When did you have your last haircut?
Do you like Itlian food?
Then after I finshed answering them I said can I take a pic.. One said okay
the other lady turned and walked away and said no photos!! To late



the plak on the church



This is across the street from the church, its like a meeting center I think.
I was not allowed inside..



But I did take a pic standing outside, heres the inside that I could get to.

Here is the name of all their trucks and stuff they use called Flag company. prehaps someone knows more about this Company.



This here is where all the famous people come in.. Yep the bigwigs enter right at this spot.. No one famous here today, as when someone famous is in town, there is Red Carpet put down.. No red carpet= no one famous in town..



Here is the new street they put in, and its finally done..



Here is the top of the church with its symbol.



Here is a good shot that I got of all the people comming out of their church function.. I was asked to stop taking pics after I got a few off!
There must have been atleast 250 of them all walking out right in front of me!! I was like Oh yeah good timming! This will make a great shot for BTS!! Hopefully you will see the effort I put forth here




All of these folks dress the same, white shirt, black pants.. While the higher ups will wear light brown.. Its still odd seeing people walking around like this in such large masses all the same..

These people are not friendly to say the least. They wont answer any questions, and they get offended very easy. If you ever come here, I highly suggest you dont talk to them, unless they talk to you first.


Edit:adding text to a picture!



[edit on 15-7-2007 by zysin5]

Here is a symbol that maybe we could look into and find out the meaning behind this one here...




More of the church..



And here is a building not sure what this one is for, but it is connected to the people here..



Okay guys there you go I hope that helps people get a better idea of what this place looks like.. I had fun taking pics, it was very beautiful out here today, and many of the security personel where asking me questions and told me not to take pics of the people.. I lied and said I was out of town, and just taking pics of the buildings.. They said okay, and left me alone..


Edit: Spellcheck 3d7

[edit on 033131p://3019 by zysin5]

Wow great pics!

The photos that stood out for me were the architecture of the buildings and the people.

All major religions have their own unique feel, culture, and architecture to them. From the stained glass windows of Christianity to the elaborate Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. But, with Scientology it looks like they just borrowed their architecture from Rome. Notice the pillars and plaques and curvy designs.

Also, did you find it strange that all of the people walking down the street wore exactly the same clothing? White collared dress shirt and dark pants. I'm not making any accusations, but they certainly look like a cult.

Wow zysin5, those are some great pictures! Thanks for sharing them with us.

As far as I know, Flag is the Flag Service Organization. They are the ones who teach the highest levels and are based out of Clearwater. They also do the high level training on the Freewinds.

Interesting coverage of this cult. Thanks for the pictures zysin5!

Wow, I take a day off and this thread gets a whole new page added to it.
I'll try to get all questions answered later today when I have more time.


Fantastic pictures zysin5, thanks so much for taking the time to go down and take them, and then take the time to post them for us. The area sure has changed a lot since I was there last.

You have voted zysin5 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You also get a big thumbs up for that.

I can answer this one from TheB1ueSoldier quickly though.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
... I am on a billion year contract, so I guess I'll get back to it someday.

.... wait. That was sarcasm, right? A billion year contract? Do they give you a complimentary wrist-watch if you sign up for a trillion years?

That wasn't sarcasm at all, here's a copy of the contract.



I hope it's legible enough to read, and here's a brief explanation from Wikipedia.

Members of the Sea Org sign an employment contract with the organization for one billion years. Sea Org members, in accordance with Scientology beliefs, are expected to return to the Sea Org when they are reborn. The motto of the Sea Org is, "Revenimus" or "We Come Back" in Latin. Official statements from the Church of Scientology contend the contract is merely symbolic of the dedication members are expected to hold to the organization, and that members are free to leave if they wish. It has, however, been alleged by former Sea Org personnel that members are restricted from leaving. Members who do leave are issued a "Freeloader's bill", retroactively billing them for any auditing or training they have received. These Scientologists may not receive any services at any Scientology organizations until they pay off this bill and perform an amends project.
en.wikipedia.org...

You have voted anxietydisorder for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

thanks everyone, I have enjoyed reading about this.

very informative!

great pics too!

Thanks for the Way Above NJE777, it's been a very interesting thread for me to, and there's been some great input from other members. We've actually proven that a thread on a controversial subject can be carried on in an informative and constructive way.
Kudos to everyone that's participating.


Duzey asked an interesting question further back:

Originally posted by Duzey

Did you consider Scientology your religion or just a useful set of tools that benefit you?

I don't think I've ever considered Scientology my religion, but the technology they teach is very useful. They arm you with a set of tools that are useful in any interactions with other people, be it friends, in business, or just dealing with strangers.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Being homosexual, do you believe that you are a "sinner"? Why? As it is in conflict with your religious beliefs, do you think that you are doing something wrong by being what you are?

I don't consider my relationship with my husband to be a sin, but here's a good definition of "sin".

1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
intr.v. sinned, sin·ning, sins
1. To violate a religious or moral law.
2. To commit an offense or violation.
www.tfd.com...

I don't believe I'm being immoral, and anyone that claims to know the will of God is either lying or insane.
My relationship is just not accordance with Scientology beliefs.

What is the science behind the E-meter contraption? How does it read thetan levels?

I have a basic understanding of how an E-meter works but this can explain it a lot better than I ever could.

When the person holding the E-Meter electrodes thinks a thought, looks at a picture, reexperiences an incident or shifts some part of the reactive mind, he is moving and changing actual mental mass and energy. These changes in the mind influence the tiny flow of electrical energy generated by the E-Meter, causing the needle on its dial to move. The needle reactions on the E-Meter tell the auditor where the charge lies, and that it should be addressed through auditing.

Different needle movements have exact meanings and the skill of an auditor includes a complete understanding of all meter reactions. Using the meter, the auditor ensures the process covers the correct area in order to discharge the harmful energy connected with that portion of the preclear’s reactive mind. When charge lessens, the person heightens his ability to think clearly in the area being addressed and his survival potential increases proportionately. As a result, the preclear discovers things about himself and his life — new realizations about existence, the milestones that mark his gains.
www.scientology.org...

There's more information at the link if you want to follow it up further.

How do you feel about the "Fair Game" policy created by L. Ron Hubbard? Do you believe that it is necessary and "fair"

I have some issues with that particular policy, but most of what it addresses is rarely applied. I think it is more aimed at extreme cases when all else has failed. I've never seen anyone wearing a dirty gray rag, or anyone with a black mark on their cheek.
This last paragraph is beyond extreme,

ENEMY SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by
any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the
Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.

and if a Church member applied it to it's fullest I think they would be sitting in a jail cell. (which has happened in the past....)

Do you believe L. Ron Hubbard to be fallible in any of his teachings?

Of course he's fallible, I don't think anyone considered him to be a God, and he certainly wasn't prayed to or idolized as such.


EDIT: small correction

[edit on 16/7/2007 by anxietydisorder]