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What good is it doing?

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posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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I am beginning to think that ATS members are single minded on this subject - yep GWB blew up the towers so that we could go in and get iraqi oil and kick off the whole afghan/middle-east thing. I even read that it was really to gain control of the drugs in afghanistan from the taliban who took it from the CIA.

I remember watching that day in complete shock, thinking this could not be hapening. All those people and the brave guys who went to help - dead.

Is the American nation still in shock - I say yes and that all the conspiracy talk is part of the process, but when do you say enough is enough? What good is all this talk having? OK here are the two possible outcomes:

1. This was an attack on the US by outside forces and all this talk about a 9/11 conspiracy is an insult to the memories of the folk who died and their families.

2. This was a setup by insiders who had a different agenda and used US and other nations citizens to meet their goals of world domination or whatever.

Lets face it lets your never going to really know but I say again what good is going over the thing again and again going to do? Is it more likely that there is a faction within ATS intent on poking a stick into the open wound to keep it from ever healing - yes.

All battles don't just take place on the battlefield, their is one happening on ATS for hearts and minds and feel free to call me ignorant but I am supporting the fallen and saying it was an attack by terrorists not the US government as I am sick of hearing.




posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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Very good call pal , and well put. I used to be a stout believer in a lot of the alternative theories. But as time has gone on, i have virtually been able to debunk them all to myself. I do not go totally with the official story. I believe very much that there are excerts that are being kept hidden at the moment as the info released is a threat to national security.
But the truther scenario has got out of hand. These no pl/br ainers have tainted this site with bs imo. Before that rubbish, there was a balanced truthful debate between skeptics and believers. All the disinfo that has spluttered out of it is appalling. A lot of people here should be ashamed. Some very near treasonous comments were made.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 07:46 PM
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Wow.

I also watched that day in complete shock. I lived in NYC over 10 years and to this day I have not been able to bring myself to visit ground zero. The first time I returned afterwards, coming in from JFK with the flank of Manhattan spread before me on the CBE, with no WTC visible, is a moment I will never forget. I could barely look. I would always wait for that moment because it was a magnificent sight. Now it is a wound.

For years I bought the official story, even though I remembered the reports of bombs that day, and couldn't believe the towers could have fallen as they did. I just didn't want to believe, and I had my life to pursue.

But then one day I saw a zogby poll that recorded over a third of the public, and over half of NYers, believed 9/11 was wholly or in part an inside job. I was shocked and began the process that so many others went through, of intense immersion in the subject and the sickening realization that there was reason behind those poll figures.

I will not argue the elements of the events here, only state that to date, no one has been held responsible for 9/11. Not one person has even lost their job in the government because of the immense intelligence failures and military stand-down that allowed the events to unfold, even if you believe the official line. No one even had their pay docked.

Nonetheless, two wars have been launched, one of them having absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 though justified by it, and the "Patriot" Act was voted within two weeks of the event--a set of abridgments of our freedoms masquerading as anti-terrorism laws thicker than the Manhattan yellow pages just lying on the shelves, waiting--and the Constitution gutted with NSA wiretaps, torture, suspension of habeus corpus, secret CIA gulags, and on and on.

These things are not legal niceties. They are the foundations of a free society and what generations of true patriots have fought and died for since before the founding of this nation.

Even if you believe the official conspiracy theory put forth by the gov't about the events of 9/11--and that is all it is, none of it is proven--then at minimum you should be outraged that the crime has gone unpunished and that those in the gov't who failed to stop it were not punished either. To date, the only people in gov't who have suffered as a result of 9/11 are whistle-blowers who, out of a "pre-9/11 mindset" of patriotism and duty, have come forward to question the actions of the FBI and our intelligence agencies.

And if you don't believe that airplane impacts and jet fuel could have brought down the towers in an explosive collapse that occurred as fast as free-fall--that is, if you reject the manifestly impossible--then you are led to conclude that elements of the gov't condoned and aided the planning and execution of the attacks, and you would be supported not only by the evidence that simply cannot be suppressed--i.e., by the very simple fact of the impossible nature of those collapses--and by the dark history those attacks unleashed and was foreseen in the agenda (PNAC) of those now in power.

When you reach this conclusion, if you are a true patriot, you do not turn away and say, "What good is it doing, fighting for the truth?" You do not further enable the destruction of your country's liberties nor roll over and condone the country's governance by a cabal of ruthless criminals and traitors.

You don't just say, "enough is enough," shrug your shoulders, and turn on the TV. You do whatever you can to make others aware of what has happened, and prove the gravity of the situation by exposing the lies for what they are.

Apathy will destroy this country more surely than even the masterminds of 9/11.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by gottago]



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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gottago,

You nailed it.

Your absolutely correct.

Is it unpatriotic to question a Government so ruthless?

I think, and in my own opinion, it is more patriotic to question the Government than to believe everything they spew out.

Governments have a history of telling lies in order to inflict a certain agenda, whether to go to war or set up a stronghold in the middle east. Either way the PNAC documents suggested that they need a "NEW PEARL HARBOR" and they got what they asked for or should i say planned for.

What good will it do talking about it on ATS?

Well for starters it is about educating those who do not know about the flaws the official explanation holds. Of course there are those people within the conspiracy sector devoted to derailing the truth in coming up with wild assumptions, but there are those kind of people every where in modern day society.

The important thing is to not stop questioning and rather demand answers. We owe it to those people who died on that day, we owe it to the families who lost loved ones and we owe it to the people who are still suffering from sickness. That is the least we can do. Maybe oneday the truth shall be revealed, but for the majority of us, we already know the truth.

BeZerK



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 08:51 PM
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Well the polls show that many now feel that the Government line to us is a lie. However there is one thing that stops people from doing more, APATHY & FEAR. For every 100 people that know 9/11 was an inside job only 1 might tell others and protest on a regular basis. Unless it effects them or there family personally many will not do anything. Others are scared.
I remember telling a guy at work once, and he said I was crazy no way.
So sadly I keep my mouth shut on this topic, with the exception of my family some of which agree that 9/11 was and inside job.
I can't afford to be labelled a nut job at work, so I stay silent on the subject. Just Look what happened to Kevin Ryan, I applaude his efforts, but not everybody can lose their jobs. The government can use economic pressure on people this way to keep there mouths shut, it is doing that and will keep doing it. Look at the gag order on Firemen & Police still working in New York.

You know ancient cultures used to sacrifice there people, this is still being done today, under the guise of false terrorism and a war that should never have started. So now Thousands die on the altar to greed, power and control. We haven't learned anything in 5000 years, they just try to make the sacrifices less obvious, now. What a pathetic world we live in.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
I am beginning to think that ATS members are single minded on this subject - yep GWB blew up the towers so that we could go in and get iraqi oil and kick off the whole afghan/middle-east thing. I even read that it was really to gain control of the drugs in afghanistan from the taliban who took it from the CIA.

1. This was an attack on the US by outside forces and all this talk about a 9/11 conspiracy is an insult to the memories of the folk who died and their families.

2. This was a setup by insiders who had a different agenda and used US and other nations citizens to meet their goals of world domination or whatever.

All battles don't just take place on the battlefield, their is one happening on ATS for hearts and minds and feel free to call me ignorant but I am supporting the fallen and saying it was an attack by terrorists not the US government as I am sick of hearing.


I won't call you ignorant, thats not very produtive, however there are a few other possibilities as to what occured on 911.

Simply letting it happen is somewhere in between #1 and#2.

As far as world domination maybe, or maybe it's purely evil that manifests itself through mankind to acheive some agenda hidden just below our consciousness.

Maybe Satan is playing all sides against each other, because united we stand divided we fall.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 10:37 PM
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i am certain that

1: official story is
a. incomplete
b. at least somewhat inaccurate

it is my duty as a human being to get to the bottom of the matter.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:30 AM
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The problem with both believers of the official story and 9-11 truthers is that both sides have gone from trying to discover the truth to defending their version of it from the other side. This is counterproductive considering no matter where you stand, you're trying to discover the truth. (Unless you are a government agent trying to distract and deflect, or you're a 9-11 profiteer making a buck off hastily thrown together theories).

I'm the opposite of gottago. I bought every theory brought to the table. I was following whatreallyhappened.com within a few days of 9-11. I believed it all. Even the ones that contradicted other ones, I just manipulated them in my mind so that they would fit together. Like I see so many people doing now, still. It's like 'wow, that sounds like me four years ago'.

Then I started to look a little more critically at things. I watched sites I frequented accuse each other of being full of disinfo. I watched evidence I trusted and believed ('why would anyone lie about this' is what I thought) get thoroughly and convincingly debunked and slowly slip out of the 9-11 dialog only to be replaced immediately with something else that disappears within six months.

What sticks as the most highly debated topic about 9-11? Bombs in the building of course. Why? Because it can't be proven or disproved. Even though a lot of you on both sides are very convinced of yourselves. The point and counterpoints in all of the arguments are such that both sides don't really ever win or show anything new, they just strengthen their own resolves. This is while the rest of us that haven't been sold either way are just sitting there like WTF just happened?

It's sad really, because a lot of people, many more than are willing to accept that there were bombs in the building, believe that there was foreknowledge on 9-11. I think it's pretty clear that there was gross bureaucratic oversights and intelligence blunders during the years leading up to 9-11. This is tangible. People with records in public service have come forward with this kind of information. Unfortunately it's all too often sandwiched between loud debates about squibs and the melting point of steel. Stuff that most of us, including those debating a lot of times, don't really understand.

And this is the crux of the matter how I see it: Those that want a conspiracy will do everything in their power for it to be the truth. Those that don't want to see a conspiracy will do everything in their power for the official story to be true. When in reality, what probably happened was a little of the official story, and a little bit of a cover up. Everything doesn't have to be an absolute.

Debating the events of 9-11 is never a bad thing, it's actually a really healthy thing (if not taken overboard). In no way does trying to get to the bottom of what happened that day insult the memory of those that died. If I perished on 9-11 because of my treasonous government I'd want someone to find out about it.

What insults their memory is the discussing of this topic as an intellectual pissing contest.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 10:58 AM
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PistolPete,

Eloquent post and well-reasoned. I think your points are all valid, and I agree fully that there is a major effort to muddy the waters on both sides. I really trust very little of the evidence brought to the table by both sides.

However, the crux of the matter to me does not rely on the presence of bombs in the towers or not--though this question alone is indication of how throughly things have been confused and information squelched from the get-go.

My bedrock is the tower collapses themselves and the physical impossibility of them occurring as explained. This is the big lie, hiding in plain sight, and it requires an application of logic and some knowledge of construction, statics and basic physics to fully comprehend.

Unfortunately much of the public does not hold these skills and the cross-talk and disinfo surrounding 9/11 serves as excellent distraction, confusing many who are not able to immediately grasp its import. I must stress again, this is fundamental and the only solid, incontrovertible proof available to us, because you can't subvert physical reality.

If you understand what is happening in relation to basic physics when you watch any of those 11 second videos of collapse, you have only one conclusion to draw, and it is a horrific one. And unfortunately makes it much easier to navigate those muddied waters. But again, so many lack the skills and deductive thinking necessary to comprehend what they have witnessed.

There is also a strong component of willful or unconscious suspension of belief as well, as the reality is too horrific to contemplate. It is far easier to keep your head down and go on with things then stop and question and think.

Most of 9/11 will remain a dark enigma, but its import can be clearly divined from this one stubborn reality.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 11:15 AM
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If there is one good thing that comes from the 9/11 conspiracy theories --and their believers-- it is the fact that many more people are now watching the actions of our government than before. A whole new generation of people are compelled to become politically active due to 9/11 controversy.

It is too bad it takes something as ridiculous and sensationalized as these NWO/ Inside Job ideas to get people to be motivated enough to act. But at least it gets some people motivated...They can discover for themselves at a later time in life that what originally caused them to become politically aware was all just a cleverly manipulated guise.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 01:47 PM
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What sticks as the most highly debated topic about 9-11? Bombs in the building of course. Why? Because it can't be proven or disproved. Even though a lot of you on both sides are very convinced of yourselves. The point and counterpoints in all of the arguments are such that both sides don't really ever win or show anything new, they just strengthen their own resolves. This is while the rest of us that haven't been sold either way are just sitting there like WTF just happened?


well, bombs sadly cannot be proven at this point in time, but the explosions already have been.

since the official story has proven to be at least somewhat flase, and the story changed later to match facts, i can draw the conclusion that the government is corrupt with 100% certainty.

thats good enough for me to keep searching for the truth.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 06:01 AM
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Well you guys its turning into another one of those 9-11 debates, we all have ideas and the whole government - secret government - nwo - illuminati, train will keep on rolling. We yes, thee and me vote them in the least you can do is support them. Bush, clinton, reagen, tricky dickie, etc when it comes down to it are only human (don't go down that road).

Somebody in the US government must have a set of B***S, if something so hideous had occurred, I truly believe that it will come out by one of those guys with a set (sorry for the male orientation not very PC).

However if like the great UFO coverup 60+ years and going strong there is no coverup but just a lot of guys making money by selling books and doing lecture tours, then what a waste of time and energy.

OK I actually belief that there is something to the whole UFO thing but I also belief that people are making some serious dough off its back and possibly now off the back of 9/11. Money seems to make the conspiracy theorists go round (and round the tours).

Drop it and lets get on with getting the troops out of Iraq by figuring out some kind of realistic plan that has a chance of working.

After all we are all going to die when the pole shift happens in 2012



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 02:22 PM
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gottago, I love you


We, the people who want to know the truth, are bombarded with:

"You just hate America!"
"You support terrorism!"
"You are supporting Iran!"
"You are disrespecting and spitting on the victims and their families!"

Etc.

No, I find that some people could pursue this just out of curiosity, regardless of their opinion of America, however..

I think that many individuals, along with myself find that we want to know the truth for the better of the country, for the better of the victims, to punish those responsible, and to prevent this from ever happening again.

In a radical case, if this was an inside job, the only way to prevent this is revolution. But I doubt it'll ever go that far because the media has brainwashed the masses to view us as all of the above, and as conspiracy theorist nuts who are insane or take drugs.

I've personally been attacked (not physically) for talking about these theories, but I still go on. I think in the end people will look back and say "Damn, they were right all along." Just like JFK! But alas, until then, people will hate us.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 02:44 PM
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Its painfully obvious that criminal elements in the government were responsible for 9/11. The theories do get tired but you just can't alter the facts to make a new theory every week. Fortunate enough the evidence is so clear and points in one direction, complicity. We were victims of a false flag plain and simple.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 04:09 PM
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thats it... criminal elements.

i dont necessarily believe that Dubya did this thing... i would think its more likely that Cheney did, and Bush followed under threat. why would they not move him during the attack from that schoolroom... it was even televised... so anyone theoretically trying to kill the President could have known where he was: this is excuse enough to move him asap. at any rate, i feel the CIA was involved or at the very least former members... or members not acting in a official capacity but using the agencies resources.

the Presidents actions define him... take the OC Bombing. it was followed by reports of an Iraqi cruising around in a pickup truck drawing attention to himself. but Clinton didnt bite. ill also note here after the JFK assassination, the reports of the fake Oswald trying to get into Cuba start to show a similar MO.



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Vinci

I've personally been attacked (not physically) for talking about these theories, but I still go on. I think in the end people will look back and say "Damn, they were right all along." Just like JFK! But alas, until then, people will hate us.


Vinci, Right on!! I've been studying 9-11 from various angles for over a year now and it is amazing the attitudes and vitrol that some seemingly educated people spew when something other than the "official" version is brought up.

I am currently studying anti-terrorism in college now (job-security
) and have had the pleasure of sharing talks with some of our finest military men and women. In doing so I have noticed a distinct correlation between serving in the armed forces and refusal to entertain any thought that the truth may be different. Now, this is not an all inclusive statement by any means, but I have had the most negative reactions from the thickest necked soldiers.

A few weeks ago, the fact that in the 9-11 Commission Report not one mention of WTC 7 is made was brought up in class. This led to an immediate silence on the part of the "believers", as if to say that the question didn't exist.


I'm not one to believe in the "no planes" or holographic planes theories. I think this stuff is on the same level as some of Icke's theories, they just serve to make us (the thinkers) all look bad. But I cannot, and will not believe that 3 buildings just happened to fall into their own footprint after two suffered impact and one had small fires. Nor can I swallow the "fact" that Flight 93 just happened to hit the ground so hard that it was pulverized, but somehow pieces and personal effects managed to "bounce" to spots several miles away. As for the Pentagon, that neat, round hole first left by the impact was just a little too neat.

Yes, I know where you are coming from Vinci



posted on Jul, 12 2007 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
All battles don't just take place on the battlefield, their is one happening on ATS for hearts and minds and feel free to call me ignorant but I am supporting the fallen and saying it was an attack by terrorists not the US government as I am sick of hearing.

I find your entire post a little insulting.

Are you saying those that don't mindlessly buy into the governments ridiculous 'official story' don't "support the fallen"?

If you're "sick of hearing", quit listening. Why are you frequenting a 9/11 conspiracy forum if you're not interested in 9/11 conspiracy speculation?

The attitude of "We'll never know, so who cares" is what has led our country to the abysmal state it's in.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 12:13 AM
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Not any disrespect to Munro, but the purpose of these forums is to ask questions. We have no ill will to those injured and those that died. If anything, we're trying to find out who/what killed them. And I wouldn't believe anything anyone involved in the government said right off the bat. Complacency is what's destroying our country.




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