Where do people on ATS stand on this?

um, where did incest come into the picture?

P.S. It was transformigafied, stolen from the cartoon movie Atlantis. The word was so stupid it stuck with me.

"Then Rock gone 'dun touch 'dat crystal and transformigafied into some living crystal of death, then he got all chopped up by 'dem there balloon propellas"
and yes, "propellas" was how it was pronounced, ha ha.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
There was no worldwide flood 4000 years ago. There is absolutely no evidence of it in the fossil record.

Sea shell on highest mountains. Yea they were lower then, but it did NOT take 6000 years for them to get from sea level to there if it took millions of years for the rockies to form is SW USA.

+ most cultures, even isolated from others, preach a great flood around the same time. Native Americans, Christians, African aboriginals. Australian aboriginals. Chinese.

But on topic, I still believe everything science says, and I don't see how it counters that of which is said in the Bible. God NEVER told the age of the Earth, just how long it took to make, plus, how do we know he wasn't talking about earth being made when it was bare rock. Then as for the other days, well, what is this "day" to be said for. God is out of time, so a day could be billions of years.

[edit on 16-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
There was no worldwide flood 4000 years ago. There is absolutely no evidence of it in the fossil record.

Sea shell on highest mountains. Yea they were lower then, but it did NOT take 6000 years for them to get from sea level to there if it took millions of years for the rockies to form is SW USA.

I think you may have gotten some misinfo. There have been Sea Shell Fossils on mountaintops, but that's to be expected given millions of years of change to plate tectonics.

+ most cultures, even isolated from others, preach a great flood around the same time. Native Americans, Christians, African aboriginals. Australian aboriginals. Chinese.

They all have flood stories, but not around the same time. The stories vary in the area of time, which is also to be expected. Floods happen everywhere.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I am wondering where ATS'rs stand on Evolution and Creation and the Age of the Earth. These two belief systems have been in a fight since the day the evolution theory was written down. So I am just wondering where the Trained Minds of the ATS boards stood. The two beliefs are pretty easy to understand when you get down to the bottom fo them.

1. All mankind came from Adam and Eve whom God created about 6000 years ago.

OR

2. All mankind came from a rock about 3-4.5 billion years ago.

1) adam and eve have kids, who do their kids breed with?
and this even applies to noah and his 2 of each animal
in religion im supposed to believe that Incest, a game the whole family can play was responsible for spreading life?
dont think so, that makes god a hypocrit.

2) came from a rock is a pretty bad way to describe evolution also.

but yes, i believe we evolved. Much like other animals have evolved and changed in one way or another to adapt, so have we.

crocodiles and other lizards are but one form of proof that life can adapt to a changing world, they date back to prehistoric days apparently

[edit on 17/7/07 by Obliv_au]

Originally posted by Obliv_au


1) adam and eve have kids, who do their kids breed with?
and this even applies to noah and his 2 of each animal
in religion im supposed to believe that Incest, a game the whole family can play was responsible for spreading life?
dont think so, that makes god a hypocrit.

[edit on 17/7/07 by Obliv_au]

They mated with each other, or inbreeding
1) explains all the idiots in the world
2.) explains the jump start for evolution. (inbreeding creates rendom genes)

Originally posted by Rasobasi420


I think you may have gotten some misinfo. There have been Sea Shell Fossils on mountaintops, but that's to be expected given millions of years of change to plate tectonics.

The fossils are carbon dated to a few thousand years ago, and I don't think with our current thinking of tectonics that mountains rise that fast seeing as how it took millions of years for the SW USA ones to grow

+ here:


Africa
Southwest Tanzania
Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

China
The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world.

Babylon
Gilgamesh met an old man named Utnapishtim, who told him the following story. The gods came to Utnapishtim to warn him about a terrible flood that was coming. They instructed Utnapishtim to destroy his house and build a large ship. The ship was to be 10 dozen cubits high, wide and long. Utnapishtim was to cover the ship with pitch. He was supposed to take male and female animals of all kinds, his wife and family, provisions, etc. into the ship. Once ship was completed the rain began falling intensely. The rain fell for six days and nights. Finally things calmed and the ship settled on the top of Mount Nisir. After the ship had rested for seven days Utnapishtim let loose a dove. Since the land had not dried the dove returned. Next he sent a swallow which also returned. Later he let loose a raven which never returned since the ground had dried. Utnapishtim then left the ship.

MORE at

nwcreation.net...

And

en.wikipedia.org...(mythology)

Google and found that.

NOTE: many have no actual dating to them, but Epic of Gilgamesh = 2700 BC to 2500 BC, around the same as the bible. Ever though God just puts on different faces fro different time periods, and now goes by the alias of the God of Israel?

Well, look it up, everything is connected in my opinion, everything was made based off of a past event if you look at the world.

[edit on 17-7-2007 by Gorman91]

There is no fight between creationism and Evolution. It's a misconception that these are 2 competing theories. In fact, they are not. Only creationists say there is a fight over the 2 beliefs. Evolution is not a belief, it is a fact with it's foundation firmly set in scientific evidence accumulated over a LONG period of time and CONTINUALLY re-enforced with new evidence. The age of the universe, galaxies, solar systems, our planet, etc. are also not in dispute with anyone but creationists who refuse to belief FACT.
I'm not saying there is or isn't a god who may or may have not created the universe thus starting evolution. The problem is that there is ZERO evidence for the belief in creationism and there is tremendous amounts of evidence supporting Evolution.
Before anyone says, "evolution is just a theory", please read the definition for a scientific theory, it's not what you think it means.

I have known a few creationists who also believe that dinosaurs never existed. I have found there arguments are lost in ignorance of fact. I believe creationists in general have the same problem.

Originally posted by jfj123
There is no fight between creationism and Evolution. It's a misconception that these are 2 competing theories. In fact, they are not. Only creationists say there is a fight over the 2 beliefs. Evolution is not a belief, it is a fact with it's foundation firmly set in scientific evidence accumulated over a LONG period of time and CONTINUALLY re-enforced with new evidence. The age of the universe, galaxies, solar systems, our planet, etc. are also not in dispute with anyone but creationists who refuse to belief FACT.
I'm not saying there is or isn't a god who may or may have not created the universe thus starting evolution. The problem is that there is ZERO evidence for the belief in creationism and there is tremendous amounts of evidence supporting Evolution.
Before anyone says, "evolution is just a theory", please read the definition for a scientific theory, it's not what you think it means.

I have known a few creationists who also believe that dinosaurs never existed. I have found there arguments are lost in ignorance of fact. I believe creationists in general have the same problem.

You can never convince them that carbon dating is real. I'm starting a new thread to try to refute this.

I agree. You can never prove something to someone who refuses to believe reality is real.
Not believing facts, doesn't make them any less true, it does however make the disbeliever foolish.

Originally posted by jfj123
there is tremendous amounts of evidence supporting Evolution.

Could you please post some of the "evidence" that says evolution is true.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Could you please post some of the "evidence" that says evolution is true.

Here is what I said earlier to help understand the concept.

I think you see evolution as a gradual change over time (one generation has a bump, then the next has it longer, then it turns into a finger ages later) But in fact this is false, evolution is a simple change that happens in one generation that makes it different, but still accepted. For example, if a cat is born it 5 fingers, its different, but not abandoned (mainly because mother doesn't see how it will cripple the kitten in the future) SO this 5 finger cat mates, one happens to be born with 5 finger and the rest with a normal 4. Now you have a 5 fingered cat in the gene pool. If, by chance, it finds a mate that has 5 fingers also (very rare, but it happens) then it will have more kids born with 5 fingers. If, by chance, the 5 fingered cats inbreed, then the gene becomes dominate. Over time, the gene become a major one, perhaps this gene allows it to climb faster, so it is more of a good mutation then bad, and because it is seen to be better, mates will be attracted to it rather then a slower 4 fingered cat. Eventually over time, all cats in the local group have 5 fingers. Now, if that local group remains isolated from 4 fingered cats, and its gene pool remains pure, it will slowly become a dominate gene, and replace the 4 fingered gene. Now, one more thing must happen. Tiny mutations happen in everyone, one of which is the inability, or difficulty, to mate with isolated gene pools. Like the liger. It shows that tigers and lions are still close enough genetically to mate, but so far away genetically, that the different chromosomes make the product sterile. So, after the 5 fingered cats become isolated for enough generations, it become impossible, or extremely difficult, to mate with 4 fingered cats. It may not even work, and the product would be sterile. Once the product become sterile, that means a new species is born, because now it no longer can mate with the original species.

Does that clear it up a bit? This has no conflict for me with the bible, as the bible talks about how everything changes, and how God made it so things could change.

Now. Evidence? Well, carbon dating, but this seems to be unbelieved by some. What makes it unbelievable?

Before you post why it's unbelievable, lets remember that carbon dating is not used in dating fossils. It's limit is around 50,000 years. Fossils take millions of years to form (which is why fossils or sea shells can exist on mountain tops).

Exactly. Thats why they only read to a few thousand years ago. Perfectly in range of this 50,000 year gap. Of course, I find that to be wrong, Carbon dating is perfectly normal.

[edit on 18-7-2007 by Gorman91]

Are you talking about the sea shells on mountain tops? Please provide a source for this info. And try not to link to any creationist web pages. If you can, poin me towards a reputable source without an individual agenda.

thx

I have no Idea as google is getting odd these days. I search something and get completely relevant sites. I'll try though.

I tried too. I tried very very hard. All I could find were "creation science" pages, but nothing in any actual reliable pages.

Makes me think it's just a fraud perpetrated by the creationist agenda......

Well, see it this way. If they say the carbon dating is from 2000 bc, you know their right, because they wouldn't say it if it read 1 million years old.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Are you talking about the sea shells on mountain tops? Please provide a source for this info. And try not to link to any creationist web pages. If you can, poin me towards a reputable source without an individual agenda.

thx

I don't know if this helps, but I have seen that very thing west of Calgary. Right on the top of the Rockey Mountains. You need to have a good 4X4 and hiking boots to see it. I didn't have a camera with me as that was in 1978, and cameras were not important to me in those days.

There have been some tumultuous times in this earth's history.

The clam shells were quite large, at least 5 to 6 inches in diameter. The cragy top of that mountain loked like petrofied sand & silt.

Originally posted by Gorman91

SO this 5 finger cat mates, one happens to be born with 5 finger and the rest with a normal 4. Now you have a 5 fingered cat in the gene pool. If, by chance, it finds a mate that has 5 fingers also (very rare, but it happens) then it will have more kids born with 5 fingers.



This has no conflict for me with the bible, as the bible talks about how everything changes, and how God made it so things could change.

The thing is 4 fingers or 5 it's still a cat. A cat with an abnormality because sin has affected all of creation. You haven't enhanced the case for evolution at all.

Could you please, please post the verse references for your statement that says the Bible contains verses stating everything changes.

The Bible says the opposite.

Ecclesaistes 1:[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Originally posted by dbrandt
You haven't enhanced the case for evolution at all.

Could you please, please post the verse references for your statement that says the Bible contains verses stating everything changes.

The Bible says the opposite.

Ecclesaistes 1:[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

So you are requiring others to advance the case for evolution, but only supplying bible verses to prove the case for creation.

I hope you realize how silly that sounds.