Where do people on ATS stand on this?

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Proof of evolution IN OUR LIFETIME (in actuality over a six year span)

A team of international researchers has found that butterflies on a South Pacific island quickly developed genetic defences when they faced extinction from a parasitic bacteria.

www.abc.net.au...

If you prefer to hear it from somewhere academic, here's the UC Berkeley news:

www.berkeley.edu...

Evolution is real. Your sky fairy isn't.

Give in to the dark side, Luke ...

MMF,
I think this might help with the "butterflies"
How can you rely on such "scientific Techniques"?


Peppered Moth
Peppered Moth

Please, scroll down to "falsifying evidence"

This is the worst type of pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo you could bring to this thread. I'm sorry but that sight is ridiculous. The logic the writer uses is middle school at best.

Obviously you believe creationism is right and evolution is wrong so,
PROVE creationism is right.

jfj123,
"mumbo jumbo,
are you kidding? They glued the moths on!!
Money-making "scholars" will do some pretty childish things to keep thier tenure, thier "grant" to keep looking at butterflies and thier air of superiority.
Why lean on a system who's main pillars are false?
Piltdown man, Nebraska man, feathered dinosaur, geologic column,
and let me tell you the tiktalic looks pretty fishy. Scales surviving that long.
Remember this, "A fool says in his heart, there is no God" Proverbs

the peppered moth thing..... it didnt make anything different!

its still a stupid moth!!!!

Thats not proof, and they glued those things on the trees.
and all it does prove is that if you cant blend in, you will get eaten. duh!

Guys, they stuck them to the trunk of the tree for a photograph, of course some of the photos were staged. They are used for illustrative purposes.

That has little to do with the research.

I like this comment though "all it does prove is that if you cant blend in, you will get eaten"

Heh. Sounds like natural selection to me...

I guess you agree with Darwin then, methuselah.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by melatonin]

Sorry, that's the best laugh I've had all morning.

How can I rely on scientific technique? Because it produces REAL evidence of REAL evolution. If all you can do to pick it apart is complain the PICTURE is staged, then it goes to show that you won't listen to any proof because your brainwashing is too complete.

Some people don't understand, can't understand or willfully refuse to understand.

Science is fact. Religion is fiction. This isn't a matter of opinion, except in the minds of the misguided.

It's really funny how creationists continue to utilize outdated information to support their case. The irony is they use scientific information thats outdated and will believe that but they won't believe scientific information that is more modern.

Obviously clearskys falls into the "I believe in god" camp which is fine but, since you are holding science to such high standards for proof of evolution, please now use that same standard and prove god exists.

Obviously if this post is ignored, I will be forced to think you cannot prove it and don't believe in god yourself.

I guess you agree with Darwin then, methuselah.

uh not quite. Natural selection is a conservative process not a creating one. it cannot create anything. you can filter out all the white moths all you want. you are still going to get a moth no matter how long you use natural selection.

as for explaining how God exists using science... that would be like me trying to explain to you how my computer came into existence without using man, or intelligent design in my answer. or how my house came into existence without using man in my answer. I understand how my computer works, I understand how my house works. but if I cant use man in my answer as to how my computer came into existence or even the computer programs... it would be impossible. just like trying to explain that the universe ( which is a closed system by definition ) came into existence by chance is very hard to explain, especially the how and when. and yes it is difficult to explain how God made everything and I dont know where God came from, I believe what the bible says, he always has been and he always will be. I believe that. and I admit that mine is based on faith. you cannot deny that at least the parts of evolution that we cannot observe and demonstrate is based on faith. we have never seen a dog produce a non-dog... you assume this happened based on the fossils you find in the ground. you also assume that the fossils you find in the ground are buried in different layers which are different ages based on the fossils you find. (circular reasoning).

as I said before, both require faith. only micro evolution is science, all others are bogus and should not be taught as fact. and micro evolution has not been demonstrated to lead to macro evolution. micro evolution is where science ends.

Lets say that you had no insight on god/religion. You were never taught by your parents, a preacher , through school or through a book about there being a god or religion. Would you still beleive in creationism or a god for that matter? What other hard evidence would you have if you eliminated all that was drilled into your head from youth about creationism?

I posted this on page 10 and did not get any responses from the creationists. Why is this? You take away all that you were told to believe and you have nothing to argue, no point to make. Scientists make an attempt to prove what may be real but creationists hold on to somthing that never was if it was taken away like I did with my question to you.

Originally posted by Methuselah
uh not quite. Natural selection is a conservative process not a creating one.

No, it's a selection process. In some ways, you are correct that NS is not a creating process, it is genetic changes that create the variation. NS just acts to select the most adaptive of these. But, overall, it is part of a creative process.

So, we have a two-step natural 'designing' process. One produces variations within a population, the other selects the optimal variations.

So, if a mutation produces a new variation that aids reproductive success, organisms with this new variation can come to dominate. Add thousands of mutations over very long periods of time, evolutionary processes can 'design' organisms best suited to their environment.

I suppose you think that artificial selection acting on natural variations isn't a creative process...

Artificial Selection - fantail



natural selection - fantail



One developed the fantail by natural selection, the other by artificial selection from the feral pigeon (rock pigeon).

[edit on 29-7-2007 by melatonin]

Lets say that you had no insight on god/religion. You were never taught by your parents, a preacher , through school or through a book about there being a god or religion. Would you still beleive in creationism or a god for that matter? What other hard evidence would you have if you eliminated all that was drilled into your head from youth about creationism?

I posted this on page 10 and did not get any responses from the creationists. Why is this? You take away all that you were told to believe and you have nothing to argue, no point to make. Scientists make an attempt to prove what may be real but creationists hold on to somthing that never was if it was taken away like I did with my question to you.

Ive studied a bunch of animals that require certain things to occur in their life(long term/short term...down to the micro second) in order for them to survive and live life in the way they are supposed to?

I actually once gave up my beliefs until I looked around one day and saw through my very own eyes the world as we see it. I looked around and studied just a few animals that totally defy evolution.

think about it... how is it that you(your very soul and spririt, your personality) can look out into the world through your eyes. how is it that its you looking through them and not someone else? how is it that I exist? I ask myself those kinds of questions all of the time. if I didnt exist, what would that feel like? where would I be? how was I created? how is it that can exist? how am I me?

if you just sit there and think about it really hard you will come to realize whether you like it or not that you were created by a greater power than anything on this earth and for a purpose.

I think the only reason people to turn to evolution as something to believe in is because they are afraid and dont understand Christianity and the grace of God. people turn to this because they hope to eliminate God as a whole and chose to believe in something where they are no longer accountable.
it doesnt matter how bad of a person you have been there is always a chance to renew yourself in the blood of Christ. evolution was a lie that started from the garden of eden. dinosaurs did not live millions of years ago and the earth was not formed from a big bang 4.6 billion years ago.

think about it. this doesnt take rocket science. proverbs says " a fool says in his heart, there is no God." people hide behind their "science" because it eliminates God from their life. but when something goes wrong, they still blame God for whatever they are going through. science is hardcore facts, things we can study, observe and demonstrate.

we cannot observe any plant or animal turning into something other than its kind, no matter how long it takes. its impossible. we canot demonstrate that either. we can study fossils, but thats all we can do, we cant gather any facts from them, other than.. they died at one point in time. or maybe how they died, thats about all.

God is outside of our realm of science. he made the laws of physics and has control over everything. in order to be in control of everything you have to be outside and not limited by what you are control of. God is not limited by science therefore I cannot use science to explain him. thats like trying to use a man made object to explain a man.

Originally posted by Methuselah
I think the only reason people to turn to evolution as something to believe in is because they are afraid and dont understand Christianity and the grace of God. people turn to this because they hope to eliminate God as a whole and chose to believe in something where they are no longer accountable.

What about those who are christians and accept the theory of evolution as a sound explanation for the biological diversity on the earth?

That's a lot of people you've just completely ignored.

What about those who are christians and accept the theory of evolution as a sound explanation for the biological diversity on the earth?

please explain... you talking about white.. black...and everything in between?

if you are talking about micro evolution... then they are correct for believing in that. micro evolution is scientific, its observable and demonstrable. dogs produce dogs and bananas produce bananas. different colors dont mean evolution is true.

if you are talking about why there are so many different animals on the earth, then those Christians who believe God used evolution to get everything here do not believe in the god of the bible. God made everything in six days. no evolution. they have a problem with their doctrine of the cult they are in.

Or maybe the christians who can hold a faith and also see the validity of the ToE are more in tune with reality.

Or maybe the christians who can hold a faith and also see the validity of the ToE are more in tune with reality.

apparently they have not read I Timothy 6:20

apparently they dont believe in the story of moses, for when God gave the commandments he said that he made everything in six days. Jesus quoted Genesis many times.
apparently they dont believe Genesis
apparently they dont believe II Timothy 3:16

Apparently they arent really Christians. they have what I call "fire insurance" so they wont go to hell.


II Peter 3:3-7
vs.3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers (people who believe the bible is bogus), walking after their own lusts, vs.4 And saying, where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. vs.5 For this they are willingly ignorant of (dumb on purpose), that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: vs.6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: vs.7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word, kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

why was this written, so I can be assured that people are trying to falsify creation with lies. people want to take God out of the picture, problem is he isnt going anywhere.

you know back in the day when this nation was more Godly, things were a lot better. the more we take God out of the picture, the more goes wrong. we cant blame God after we kick him out.

If someone calls themselves a Christian and decides that parts of the bible are not true, they are in a cult. they are not true Christians. Gods business works like this, you are either in or out. you are either hot or cold.
Revelation 3:16 says ""So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

no one likes lukewarm drinks. nor does God like a lukewarm Christian.

for those who have chosen to accept that evolution (with the exception of micro evolution provided it has limits to its own kind or species) is factual and can fit into Gods word, they are ignorant. they obviously did not read Genesis or Exodus or the other references I gave.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Gorman, you have some of your facts very wrong. We've had language longer than 20,000 years, the last "other" species of human, the Neanderthals, died out approximately 65,000 to 30,000 years ago, etc.

Proof is not the correct word, the correct word is evidence.

Creationists do not have any evidence of creation or god, not in the scientific sense. Negative evidence of evolution does not prove creation. The supernatural is not the default position.

Sorry to take so long to respond

We have had language fro a long time yes, but only 20,000 years ago did we go from simple grunts and clicks to actual words.

And there have been many different trans human extinction, yes, but the majority started die off right before the Ice Age
Also, their is an argument either way. I mean, its obvious all creatures share common ancestor, but why is it there is only "one" form of life on Earth. Why, in all the Earth, did one type of simple structure form from complex building blocks, and not multiple DNA structures. Why do we all have the double helix. Why didn't other creatures have a change to this DNA. Also, why didn't humans separate after millions of years of separation from each other across the world, but other creatures have changed while separated.

We have had language fro a long time yes, but only 20,000 years ago did we go from simple grunts and clicks to actual words.

And there have been many different trans human extinction, yes, but the majority started die off right before the Ice Age
Also, their is an argument either way. I mean, its obvious all creatures share common ancestor, but why is it there is only "one" form of life on Earth. Why, in all the Earth, did one type of simple structure form from complex building blocks, and not multiple DNA structures. Why do we all have the double helix. Why didn't other creatures have a change to this DNA. Also, why didn't humans separate after millions of years of separation from each other across the world, but other creatures have changed while separated.

im glad you were there to share the experience of grunts and clicks... the fact is you dont know if thats what they used. im sure some uneducated tribes of some sorts did use that technique to communicate. but you are assuming evolution is true and we are becoming smarter as the years go on.

its obvious all creatures share a common ancestor? uhm I dont think so... what evidence supports that? can you show me that a monkey can produce a human after a couple generations of breeding? or that any other plant or animal can produce something other than its kind after a few generations of breeding? its never been done and it never will be done. ithe geologic column is based on a bunch of lies from Charles Lyell and the assumption that evolution is true.

did you know that when I visited grand canyon they had a museum there that had rocks and fossils there telling how the rocks were different ages and that the ages of the rocks were based on what bones they found in the rocks. then they turn around and say they base of the age of the bones on the layer of rocks they find them in... sounds retarded to me.

scientific evidence that the earth is not millions of years old....

the magnetic field is losing its strength... anything over 30,000 years ago would have been fried according to the rate its dropping!!!! its impossible!!!

and maybe God designed our DNA in only one way so it would make the evolution theory look stupid. why dont we have more DNA structures? if there is only one structure, there is probably only one planet with life on it... the odds are about the same.

Also, why didn't humans separate after millions of years of separation from each other across the world, but other creatures have changed while separated.

probably because it didnt happen the way the evolution theory puts it.
maybe God created the heaven and the earth and its quite possible that the only change there has been has occurred within the species or kind.

methusela wrote

as for explaining how God exists using science... that would be like me trying to explain to you how my computer came into existence without using man, or intelligent design in my answer.

Well I think it's funny that you require to be shown massive amounts of scientific evidence for you to believe in evolution, you yourself believe in micro evolution however you refuse to hold creationism to the same scientific standard by requiring you to see scientific evidence to prove creationism exists. It makes NO sense. This is where your whole argument is fundamentally flawed.

Originally posted by Methuselah
Apparently they arent really Christians. they have what I call "fire insurance" so they wont go to hell.

Heh, yeah, only the YEC christians are the true christians.

I tend to think most are the true L4J

Of course, it's not just biology that is wrong and a lying science according to the YECers. It's geology, cosmology, physics, chemistry. Even non-YEC christians aren't real christians, they must be liars as well.

Everyone else, but YECs. Heh. The group who hold true a 6000 year old earth, a magic-man creating the earth in 6 days, and a magical world-wide flood. Even though all the evidence suggests you are clearly wrong.

All you've shown in this thread, methuselah, is a compete inability to understand the evidence or make a coherent argument. So, tell me about Boyle's law again, heh...

[edit on 30-7-2007 by melatonin]