Reincarnation and Christianity.

Originally posted by Amenti
Do you think you can come down off your high horse long enough to tell us how you determined this?

If you want an answer on my very unbias post be more polite. I am not here to fight you or anybody for believes or ideologies.

Originally posted by marg6043

If you want an answer on my very unbias post be more polite.

I am not here to fight you or anybody for believes or ideologies.

truthfully, I felt a little bad for saying that. and I apologize. but I did get the impression that you thought you had clearly solved this problem for all of us. and I thought you assumed too much about reincarnation, christianity, and science, at least in regard to this issue. In addition, I am a little defensive
as well because it seems everyone around here seems to "know" what christians think/believe. and I think more often than not they are assuming all christians are roman catholic or TBN evangelists. I am neither.

Amenti,

Thanks Amenti, I mean no disrespect to religious, faith or Christian believes, I took the topics from different sites specially the Jewish one.

Science do not believe in reincarnation because it can not be prove, but religious scientist have their own view of it.

Christian doctrine if you are a follower of Jesus, can not support reincarnation but rather resurrection by faith on Jesus, but that doesn't mean that is not plenty of Christian people that have believes in it, either by choice, personal experiences or because they chose to believe.

Non-Christians also tend to believe in reincarnation but this does or may not include Atheist.

My personal opinion, well I am a believer of reincarnation.

Originally posted by marg6043
Christian doctrine if you are a follower of Jesus, can not support reincarnation but rather resurrection by faith on Jesus

My point is that "christian doctrine" is not so clear cut, save the one verse sighted here which I will come to, but in any case I see it as assuming too much about reincarnation and it's purpose(s) to assume that it would negate or affect in any way ones salvation attained by faith in Jesus
If you believed that all reincarnation was, lets say in the Hindu sense, I.E. a means of the systematic purification of the soul on the way to, well, nothingness, done perpetually by everyone, whether they chose to or not. then you would naturally think that is was a substitute for Christian salvation. I am just saying that we must admit that being sure of its existance (which Im am not claiming I am) is not the same as knowing its purpose.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment


many people sight this passage as discrediting the issue and they may well be right but again, for the sake of speculation let me point out that Lazarus apparently dies twice, and there are a few, Elijah and Enoch who have not died once! (although I would make an argument that Elijah will do so eventually)
another loophole might be that if we are in the last days there will be a HUGE number of people that because of the harpazo (rapture) will never die at all, this could potentially mean that a large number of reincarnated folks could come back at the end. all Im saying is that the blanket statement that christians cant beilieve it because of the "christian doctrine" or that they can only as a unsubstantiated "belief" is unfair to all sides.

And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)

This is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation. So there are two important conclusions we can draw from this:

(1) The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah.

(2) Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
Based on these conclusions alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:

(A) John was Elijah himself which means that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. And if this is true then reincarnation must belong once again in Christian theology. It also means that the concept of corpses crawling out of graves on Judgment Day can be discarded. OR...

(B) John was not Elijah reincarnated which means that Elijah himself did not return. And if this is true then either (1) or (2) listed below is true:

(1) Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah's return to life before the coming of the Messiah failed to happen. This would mean that God does not keep his promise and that the Bible is fallible. OR...
(2) Jesus was not the Messiah.

Based on all the logic presented thus far, only one of the following conclusions is true:
I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III. Bible prophecies are not reliable.

There is no way around this logic. Only one of the above options can be true. And because Jesus' declaration that John is Elijah is overt and direct, then the only option that can be logically true is (A).

link

Can anyone refute that logic?

[edit on 12-7-2007 by etshrtslr]

From an outsider's point of view, reincarnation, as a concept, seems to fit more easily into the overall Christian theological construct than the idea that we only get one shot. The whole idea that we are born, live our lives, regardless of exposure to Christian doctrine, and are saved or condemned from then until Judgement Day seems arbitrary, whereas living out our lives in a cycle until that day comes at least gives us all a shot at redemption.

Forgive me for simplifying to such an alarming degree. Despite the best efforts of my educators I know far more about Eastern religions than I do about Christianity.

Edit to add: So you can see I have a vested interest here!

[edit on 12-7-2007 by Karilla]

Originally posted by etshrtslr
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)



[edit on 12-7-2007 by etshrtslr]

...I will agree with etshrtsir that these verses point toward a Biblical
basis for reincarnatiom...

Interesting that for a religion that uses common phrases likeresurrection and eternal life...
Many believers feel that reincarnation is a "philosophy of the Devil"...

Originally posted by etshrtslr
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)



[edit on 12-7-2007 by etshrtslr]

...I will agree with etshrtsir that these verses point toward a Biblical
basis for reincarnatiom...

Interesting that for a religion that uses common phrases likeresurrection and eternal life...
Many believers feel that reincarnation is a "philosophy of the Devil"...

We are told by God reincarnation is not true.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Originally posted by etshrtslr
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

John 1:[19] And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
[20] And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
[21] And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah. He told them he was not.

All the verses that talk about John the Baptist and Elijah mean is that if the people would have accepted that Jesus was the Messiah then John the Baptist would have fulfilled the "role" of Elijah.

What I would like to ask any Christians here, is wether the notion of reincarnation fits their beliefs

The two can fit together, the people asked John the baptist if he was Elijah

Matthew 17:11–13
"He replied, ‘Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer at their hands.’ Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them about John the Baptist."
en.wikipedia.org...:25.E2.80.9326

and there is much more, an eye for an eye, karma,

sins of the fathers visited upon the children, yes there are hints of it, I dont see much difference between reincarnation or resurrection ya still come back

maybe


[edit on 12-7-2007 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
and there is much more, an eye for an eye, karma,

sins of the fathers visited upon the children,

An "eye for an eye" puts a limit on retribution.

The law of reaping and sowing exits in the Bible. If I planted a kernel of corn in the ground, in about 60-90 days I would get back a plant with an ear or 2 of corn on it composed of hundreds of kernels, all from just 1 kernel planted. I wouldn't get back carrots, I would get back corn.

So God tells us in the Bible that people will reap what they sow, later than they sow, and more than they sow. This applies physically as well as spiritually.

Finally what I do can have an affect on what my kids have to deal with. Example, Someone sleeps around and gets AIDS, then gets pregnant at some point and the baby could also be born with the AIDS virus. So knowing that what I do will affect my kids, I need to make wise choices.

Originally posted by dbrandt


John 1:[19] And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
[20] And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
[21] And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah. He told them he was not.

All the verses that talk about John the Baptist and Elijah mean is that if the people would have accepted that Jesus was the Messiah then John the Baptist would have fulfilled the "role" of Elijah.

There in lies the dilemma.

Jesus said:
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

And after the disciples understood Jesus was talking about Elijah being John the Baptist and Jesus did not correct them if in fact their interpretation was wrong. Then we are left with following:

John the Baptist denies being Elijah when asked if he was Elijah in another passage in the bible and he denies being Elijah, which from the teachings of reincarnation is perfectly understandable since one of the main tenets of reincarnation is that you do not remember previous incarnations.

So that leaves us four options.

1. Jesus was mistaken when he said John the Baptist was Elijah and he did not correct his disciples when they understood Jesus was talking about Elijah being John the Baptist as described in Matt. 17:10-13.

2. John the Baptist was telling the truth as far as he knew given the fundamental tenet of reincarnation that you do not remember previous life's.

3. Jesus was accurate saying John the Baptist was Elijah.
And John the Baptist was telling the truth given one of the fundamental tenets of reincarnation that you do not remember previous incarnations in your current life.

4. Either Jesus or John the Baptist is lying.

Option three is the most logical since they are all telling the truth given the various facts and teachings. Option one, two or four makes either Jesus or John the Baptist a liar.

Yes I believe in reincarnation or at least rebirth as a new person. A time to live and die concerns each life span. You may wish to read the Aquarian Gospel. I love the remark of Jesus as he is listening to musicians “Such an art could not be learned in a single life time”.
Now people must decide to follow the Catholic lead or to open up all literature including Jewish and find the personal Lord Jesus/Yeshua for them selves.
I believer Revelation addresses the Vatican as the Whore of Babylon. Please read the passage for your self.
It is my belief that a day in heaven is as a thousand years on earth (see Peter II).
Our Lord left heaven for less than an hour to take on flesh here not by virgin birth as translated by Latin but by a mother of 13 to 15 years of age. By a normal birth he went to Soul Prison during his time in the tomb. Soul Prison I believe is where Souls come from to understand this one should read the Book of Enoch and see that heaven is maintained by mechanical means not magic. Those in Soul Prison work to keep heaven and the vine in movement.
We cycle through Soul Prison to earth until we find the Path that Jesus left for us. Our Lord was more human than most think, this point was made by Thomas Jefferson in his Red Bible an attempt to combine the three synoptic gospels together into one flowing story.
Just outside of Soul Prison is Nirvana but the four spheres of Nirvana can not give anyone a new body. Everyone there stays there in spirit. Only by freeing ones self from Soul Prison can they journey through the vine of light to heaven.
Only by connecting the Ego to the Super Ego through control of the ID or if you like by joining the Spirit to the Soul by control of the Beast can one be ready for this journey.
After Judgment the two become one (Spirit and Soul/ vapor and crystal shell). They are then “born again” into the Lords Kingdom of Light. The vine connects 270 worlds of light.
Our new bodies are of flexible clear crystal filled with luminous vapor. Facial features are a subtle combination of earths various races. There is no need to blink or breath. In heaven we shall fly with new wings but with no memories of evil people or harmful deeds done to us for those are removed at Judgment. There is no need for sleep either so may your dreams be filled with heaven now.
Shalom.

Karma

"Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." (1 Kings 18:40)

"Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword." (1 Kings 19:1)

"Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison." (Matt. 14:6-10)

Because Elijah had people beheaded, the law of "eye for an eye" and "reaping what we sow" demanded that Elijah be beheaded. This is a good example of how those who live by the sword will die by the sword - if not in the same lifetime then in another.

link

Originally posted by dbrandt
........Finally what I do can have an affect on what my kids have to deal with. Example, Someone sleeps around and gets AIDS, then gets pregnant at some point and the baby could also be born with the AIDS virus. So knowing that what I do will affect my kids, I need to make wise choices.

This brings to mind the fact that a common (almost universal as far as I am aware) misconception exists regarding the Buddhist interpretation of reincarnation. With Western eyes, it seems that each one of us is supposed to have a lineage of past lives (I was.....then I died and became....etc.). This is mistaken, a mistake caused by the dualism inherent in the entirety of Western thought, a dualism that doesn't exist in Eastern thought, particularly not during the time in which Buddhism took root and spread from India to China.

A clearer statement regarding reincarnation would be to say that all past lives are my past lives, but they are also your past lives. The Buddha's insistence that the ego is illusory is emblematic of this. There is no "I" nor "You", this is the concept of Anatta.

My point is that such a misconception could exist within our Greek-suffused understanding of the words of Jesus. Does "We are all one in the eyes of the Lord" ring any bells for those versed in scripture? Could that be taken to mean that we are literally all a single entity in the eyes of the Lord, rather than all equal?

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Karma

"Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there." (1 Kings 18:40)

"Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword." (1 Kings 19:1)

"Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison." (Matt. 14:6-10)

Because Elijah had people beheaded, the law of "eye for an eye" and "reaping what we sow" demanded that Elijah be beheaded. This is a good example of how those who live by the sword will die by the sword - if not in the same lifetime then in another.

link

YUp he sure did, I just read that the other day

Then Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Let none of them escape!" They were seized, and Elijah had them brought down to the brook Kishon and there he slit their throats.

thanks for the insight, amazing

reply to post by Karilla


this is a christian explaination of what people call reincarnation. the theory is explained like this: God made all spirits in heaven they live there life in heven util God tells them they are to go to earth. there spirit is then put into a phase of the growth of the body in the womb. when the spirit enters the bod is questionable. all that knoweledge is still remembered in the body until a phase which is diferent time for each person forgets there past knoweledge and it goes to the subconcious brain. this phase is called passssing over. then they live there life and learn new things that are harder to grasp or things they learned in there spirit life which they catch onto quickly and easily. now for the ancients they never had a phase called passing over. the spirit life is remembered more as you go back further in time. this is one of the resons why the ancients were smarter.

God created adam the same way. in GEN 1:27 god created mans spirit but he didnt mold clay around the inner man until day eight in GEN 2:7 then god brought animals to adam and had adam name them but gen never mentions god teaching him a language thats because it was taught to his spirit and remmbered because there was no passing over phase. the same with eve God created her spirit in GEN 2:18 there was a huge gap of time when adam named the animals and then he created her body in 2:22

Sorry if this has been covered before - have not had time to read everything.

What I am really concerned about is why, if the soul reincarnates to continue its purpose, do so many choose to be born to abusers and die as babies?

This makes no sense. We have just had a trial about baby torturers and murderers and it makes me so sick. Here in New Zealand we have a sad record of this. Bring back the death penalty! How could people do these things to an innocent baby?

But I am getting offtrack. Why would a soul choose this?

reply to post by spellbound


Reincarnation is a lie that Satan uses to make people think that the soul lives forever. For instance, in Genesis, God says that if you eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge you shall surely die. But Satan told Eve that you will not die.

Therefore, reincarnation just does not match up with what God said.