Reincarnation and Christianity.

I read the thread in Breaking News regarding the 4 year old Indian child and the astronaut (www.abovetopsecret.com...) and whilst reading the post about Indians being media junkies (a joke, considering Western media - anyone seen Big Brother?) I was reminded of the part in Carl Jung's Synchronicity where he mentions reincarnation in connection to Christianity. I seem to remember reading the same thing in other books, but was sure that the middle-ages was talked about as the time the concept was excised from the Bible.

I dug around a bit and found this:

Early references to reincarnation in the New Testament were deleted in the 4th century by Emperor Constantine when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Could it be that the emperor had felt that the concept of reincarnation was threatening to the stability of the empire? Citizens who believed that they would have another chance to live might be less obedient and law abiding than those who believed in a single Judgement Day for all?
In the 6th century, in the year 553 A. D., the 2nd Council of Constantinople officially declared reincarnation a heresy and the doctrine of reincarnation was officially banished by the Christian Church.

Aside of the history, the surprising thing is that there is actually a considerable amount of evidence for reincarnation in the Bible we are left with and generally speaking - people are unaware that there are definite references in the New Testament that unequivocally imply reincarnation. Not that the word itself is used; you have to dig a little. But once you understand what reincarnation is about, you can see quite a few references supporting the idea that after people die they will come back to this Earth if they are not ready to move on permanently to the heavenly realms.

Source:www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk...

The article goes on to list some of these.

What I would like to ask any Christians here, is wether the notion of reincarnation fits their beliefs (i.e.: was the excision an isolated element) or wether it is hard to incorporate into their world view, implying that either other supporting elements were also removed or others added).

Does anybody know wether Islam has, or has had, an analogous concept?

Thanks in advance.

[edit on 8-7-2007 by Karilla]

That is absurd in my opinion, for it was Christ himself who said " Man is appointed to live once and die." For reincarnation to be Biblical would mak Christa liar which would negate the whole Bible which would negate a God or any of it. To many Bible verses an storys tell us there is no reincarnation. For instance:

To be absent form the body is to be present with the LORD.

Ashes to ashes and Dust to dust.

The dead in Christ shall rise first...

You shall be with me in Paradise this day.

Lazarus and the rich man.

Sorry, did you read the article? Just because it has this segment:

Orthodox and Conservative Christians are able to muster just one quote from the Bible to attempt to show there is no reincarnation: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement..." (Heb 9:27)
This is often assumed, reasonably enough, to declare that each human being lives once as a mortal on earth, dies once, and then faces judgement. In fact, this verse could be applied to refuting modern Christianity's definition of resurrection. Reincarnation states that the spirit leaves the body at death, faces judgement, then can enter a new and different body at a later time In this way, Hebrews 9:27 can be interpreted as not refuting reincarnation because it is not the same body that dies again. It could imply one man/one death, which agrees with reincarnation, but totally disagrees with modern Christianity's definition of resurrection which holds that after a body dies and faces judgement, his physical body will rise from the grave at a later day to face possible death again and judgement. So Hebrews 9:27 could be seen not to refute reincarnation after all, but refute resurrection as modern Christianity defines it.
Furthermore, when this fragment of this sentence is read in its context - reading both the immediate verses around it, and that of the Paulian theology which runs through Hebrews - then it is not talking about physical death at all I believe, but about "dying to sin."

His (the article's author) argument, not mine.

Do you deny the fact that the council of Nicaea "edited" the Bible? If so, according to the author of this article, you may be right. www.tertullian.org...

Although, despite it's authoratative tone, I can't vouch for it's scholarliness as it was felt necessary to include this:

I have these references for accounts of the council, all of which I have read (see Note C):

Originally posted by Karilla

Orthodox and Conservative Christians are able to muster just one quote from the Bible to attempt to show there is no reincarnation: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement..." (Heb 9:27)

I gave many more than one verse, so maybe the source should ask other than Orthodox and Conservative Christians. My many verses shows that the Bible does not endorse or lead to re-incarnation, and if any verses did it would contradict the others and therefore make the whole thing Null and Void. I do not believe the bible has any contradictions in fact only in mans interpretations.

I do not disagree that the council of Nicea and others shapedwhat we have as the modern bible, in fact you can see many perversions of the Original 1611 KJV. I use the KJV Authorized and I believe that it was GOD done. In that I believe that God himself made sure that the KJV was an accurate translation and transliteration of the manuscripts and is infallible.

So if there are verses that say re-incarnation happens, then I have never seen them and it would negate the whole Bible in my eyes. I think what is happening is the same thing that happened in Constantines time. You mix the information you want together because it is a lot easier for the masses to accept small changes that contain parts of their previously known truths. This is why Constantine gave the so called Churh sunday worship, and christmas and easter and etc. But the Bible says that mixing the Holy with the profane is an abomination to God.

So my response is to the source, what version of the Bible are you using to pull this re-incarnation out? And I wouldlike to see what the Authorized KJV says about that verse you have taken form another version or another writing.

This is the problem with Biblical discussions today, to many versions and perversions.

Karilla, it is true that the bibe has been tremendously tampered with by the power mongers of the world. We see with the whole "war on terrorism" the true intentions of the power mongers. They want to turn the world into a two religion world, Christianity and Islam. That is really what is going on now.

So, it stands to reason that they would delete any references to reincarnation or anything that validates other religions of the world. They won't be successful. In the end, those that don't see the truth, will be defeated and the "church" and Mosque will be a burning pyre.

[edit on 8-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Im not sure its so easy.
I would say that it appears people have past lives (or the strong delusion of them) and as a Christian, I have leaned toward Cayce's view on this to some extent. I dont think Its Gods will to lose anyone, and I think there may be some system for reentering based on some unknown criteria. I have always assumed this process is how everyone would eventually hear the message of Jesus. I also think that a person might be able to make a choice of whether to reenter. I bet that choice is not easy because things are probably much better up there for those who loved God. I am very flexible on these notions and they are based only on my feelings so I wouldnt put to much stock in them.

Originally posted by Amenti
I would say that it appears people have past lives (or the strong delusion of them) and as a Christian, I have leaned toward Cayce's view on this to some extent. I dont think Its Gods will to lose anyone,

You are very correct there. The bible explicitly states this more than once. The first verse that comes to my mind is Luke 3:6 "ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God."

[edit on 8-7-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Hmm,I feel reincarnation exists. The whole 1 life thing from what I understand was created by constantine when they came up with the composite Christian religion after the defeat of the Muslims. From what I understand it's a whole play on getting the best work from the slave as possible. If they think they only have once life they will stay in line. Classic control technique.

Speaking of that topic, I always wondered who I was before...

That is absurd in my opinion, for it was Christ himself who said " Man is appointed to live once and die." For reincarnation to be Biblical would mak Christa liar which would negate the whole Bible which would negate a God or any of it. To many Bible verses an storys tell us there is no reincarnation.



Lazarus died, and was brought back to life......so there is a "loophole" in what jesus said.

I think the concept of only living once is absurd! Jesus himself will "rise again" for our supposed salvation. I beleive the teaching of Jesus are highly skewed and misinterpreted by the masses of chirstianity. Its odd that many non chirstians get a better idea of his teachings then the ones who follow him...

anyway, Reincarnation is found in practically every other religion in the world. The purpose of living is to evolve and come to God naturally, its part of our free will. I dont doubt that many people dont acheive this in one lifetime. I beleive many people reincarnate to help people on earth in their own lives. Why is the concept of reincarnation so taboo for some christians? maybe some dont like the idea of "condemned sinners" being able to come back and have a second chance. God is merciful afterall...

Originally posted by acegotflows
The whole 1 life thing from what I understand was created by constantine when they came up with the composite Christian religion after the defeat of the Muslims.

Constantine died in 337 AD. Mohammed was born around 570 AD. The Council of Nicea of 325 had nothing to do with Islam because Islam did not yet exist.

The idea of reincarnation was a popular one in the Ancient World. The Greeks called it metempsychosis. There is no doubt that some Christian sects believed in reincarnation while others did not. The Council of Nicea was one of the key events that turned Christianity, which until then was a popular, decentralized movement, into a unified imperial religion. Before this, there were numerous Christian groups holding vastly different beliefs and interpretations.

The idea of a Christian Church rising immediately after the resurrection is a myth at best, a piece of propaganda at worst. The Church was born as a political institution in the 4th century, when the bishops won the favour of the Emperor. Before that, there were many churches, not just one.

In the Roman mind, there was no split between church and state, religion and politics. Christianity won the sanction of the emperor because it had become powerful in the Empire. We shouldn't confuse the Church or the Bible with Jesus of Nazareth. They are not one and the same.




[edit on 9-7-2007 by cambrian77]

[edit on 9-7-2007 by cambrian77]

I'm Christian and here's my opinion ...

God can do whatever He wants to. If He decides that He wants to send someone back to 'try again' .. then that person will come back.

As far as bible quotes goes ... the bible contradicts itself over and over ... and we can find anything we want to support any position we want. The bible claims Christ said the words about living once then death .. but those were written by a human and so they may or may not be true.

That's my opinion .. since you asked.

I think there is no heaven or hell but a centralize gathering of souls. It may be our lives are evaluated and if we were good hearted people and lived a good life we can then move on to another level. Perhaps its another being on another planet without wars and mean people.

Maybe we have the choice on our own to decide to return or not. It's true people have been able to talk about being someone else in a past life how could they know all the details of someone who was not famous or in history books?

I hope reincarnation is possible. Not for myself but for the people who just got a bum rap at a shot in life like miscarriages, abortions, early childhood death kinda thing especially those of pure innocence that never got to enjoy life.

I personally am entertaining the notion that certain ethnics/nationalities/races of humans are genetically predisposed towards having these spontaneous early childhood past-life recall experiences.

Environmental factors come into play also but it could be more genetic than anything else hence why reincarnation has been incorporated into their religious belief systems.

Once again... this is ONLY AN OPINION but it's also been tentatively put forward by Dr. Ian Stevenson -- though only in private conversation.
And by the way, according to his research, the Druze in Lebanon have been found to have the most compelling reincarnation cases out there.
Here's a link to his case studies.


[edit on 9-7-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by Palasheea
I personally am entertaining the notion that certain ethnics/nationalities/races of humans are genetically predisposed towards having these spontaneous early childhood past-life recall experiences.

Environmental factors come into play also but it could be more genetic than anything else hence why reincarnation has been incorporated into their religious belief systems.

Once again... this is ONLY AN OPINION but it's also been tentatively put forward by Dr. Ian Stevenson -- though only in private conversation.
And by the way, according to his research, the Druze in Lebanon have been found to have the most compelling reincarnation cases out there.
Here's a link to his case studies. [edit on 9-7-2007 by Palasheea]

interesting point. but it seems the children that experience this are often of diverse races. I could be wrong I never looked into it. to be clear to all those others that said jesus said that we are to only live once...he didnt, what was said was this Hebrews 9:27-28 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," this was said by Paul not Jesus and its only says DIE once LIVING twice might not be out of the question once could conceivably be reincarnated in the last days and only DIE once technically....I know I know it sounds a little contrived, but lets take Enoch he didnt even Die once. theres one apparent loophole roght there, and besides, it said that man was "destined to die once" this in not saying it is always the case necessarily, nor does it imply that a reincarnated soul didnt already receive judgment before returning... again I am leaving the door wide open here I am postulating this for the simple Joy of speculation. I do however intend to form a solid opinion of the matter soon.

Originally posted by Keebie
Maybe we have the choice on our own to decide to return or not.

This is the case, according to Tibetan Buddhism. At a certain point in the journey through the Bardos, after death, you will see the "lesser lights" that are the lights of this world, of Samsara. Only if these are ignored completely (no attachements) will you escape Samsara, and the cycle of rebirth.

As I understand the concepts, Reincarnation seems to fit Christianity better than "one-life". If everybody only gets one chance, you will have a huge number of souls awaiting the day of Judgement. Surely it makes more sense to die and be re-born until that day is reached? I understand that some may be insulted by this speculation from a non-Christian, and I apologise if this is the case. I am not an atheist, though, and it is not my intention to insult anybody's beliefs. I am a non-practicing (sloppy) Taoist (at present - meaning I hope to start practicing again soon!).

Thank you all for your input!

Karilla

Everyone has been talking about this movie Zeitgeist ( I am going to watch it tonight ) that puts alot of this Christos thing into balance, but I want to point you toward a URL that eloquently shows that religion has been used as a tool by ruling elites to control the masses.


www.rense.com...

Originally posted by mazzroth
Karilla

Everyone has been talking about this movie Zeitgeist ( I am going to watch it tonight ) that puts alot of this Christos thing into balance, but I want to point you toward a URL that eloquently shows that religion has been used as a tool by ruling elites to control the masses.


www.rense.com...

Thanks for that link. I was half asleep when I posted last time, as evidenced by me being almost 1000 years off in my constantine point. religion is a classic control mechanism...

The concept of reincarnation is seen in many instances in the old testament, but more likely many miss use of the quotes about it, even orthodox Jews accept the reincarnation doctrine.

www.aish.com...

Many religions indeed believe in reincarnation, even many Christians personally also believe.

But in the Christian doctrine reincarnation has not room because we learn that only through Jesus and faith you can only attain salvation, so the thought or reincarnation actually will make Jesus unnecessary.

Reincarnation is also accepted by non Christians.

Science explanation for no believing in reincarnation is that they claim that the earth have more people in modern times for souls to be able to reincarnate and take hold of every single body more than once.

But at the end many personal experiences by believers and non believers are the only way for people to come to terms about what eternal life may be or what we call the reincarnations of the soul.

Originally posted by marg6043

But in the Christian doctrine reincarnation has not room because we learn that only through Jesus and faith you can only attain salvation, so the thought or reincarnation actually will make Jesus unnecessary.

Do you think you can come down off your high horse long enough to tell us how you determined this? are you implying you know something about the why reincarnation happens? It seems like it makes a more apologetic argument than anything considering its a great way to get all the people in the world of all time to hear the message, wouldn't you agree.

Originally posted by marg6043

Science explanation for no believing in reincarnation is that they claim that the earth have more people in modern times for souls to be able to reincarnate and take hold of every single body more than once.

since when does science believe in souls? random undirected mutations do not produce souls, well, I could be wrong but Id like to see the paper.