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posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Edn

To be honest though I do see a little difference in it, smokers (to pick on them a little more, sorry) is some thing you know exists, and in general all smokers know its bad for them and could potentially kill them, god(s) are pretty much non existent there no physical proof so i do see a difference in someone saying i should believe in god(s) and someone saying i should quite/start smoking.

hope that wasn't to off topic.


Hey, Edn, welcome to the thread.

Of course it wasn't too off-topic. This whole topic is about aspects of living with non-belief in a largely believing world. Any aspect you care to talk about is welcome in this thread.

While I'm posting here, something's been cheesing me off lately I thought I'd share.

My abusive ex claims to be a Catholic. He was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school. I've known him since 1996 and he's only set foot in a church once the entire time, for a friend's wedding. Never prays, doesn't own a Bible, and knows full well how I feel about teaching children about religion before they're old enough to think for themselves.

But he's taught my daughter to believe in heaven and I'm fried. I told her that heaven was a make-believe place. She keeps telling me that she believes in it because her father does.

He does it on purpose to upset me. That is perhaps one of the most disgusting things I've seen him do. He's no more a Christian than I am, and has no ethics or morals to speak of, but he'll poison my daughter's mentality with this nonsense. He's also bought her a Veggie Tales DVD I wish I could throw away. :shk:



Edn

posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 02:48 PM
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thats really unfortunate to hear MajorMalfunction I can only hope that as she gets older she has the opportunity to explore other religions and make up her own mind at least, no matter what that may end up to be.

It is one thing I find odd about the US the lack of any religious education, apparently due to separation of church and state as people have said before however I don't believe this has any basis on teaching people about religion, teaching a single religion would come under the separation of church and state part I think.

Though I think it could and probably would be abused by whoever was in power by putting teachers in the classes who's only purpose is to spread there own personal religion rather than actually teach anything about all religions.

Do any of you have thoughts on this being non-religious do you think it could still be important to teach people about other religions?

For me RE was quite important (as mentioned earlier) if it wasn't for RE I probably would never have found this site, i probably would not have a fuller understanding of my own beliefs and id probably still in some way believe in god just because everyone else I knew did. Quite an odd one, RE actually made me not believe in god(s)



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 02:53 PM
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I don't think RE would work here at this time, for the reasons you mentioned. Most people who'd want to teach that class would likely be Christians and I believe they wouldn't teach the class in a fair and unbiased manner.

I actually am glad there is no teaching of this in public school, as I'm a very firm believer in the separation of church and state. I don't want my tax dollars being spent on religion. Period.

When I got curious about religion about age 8, my mom let me go to church with a neighbor kid and his family. Within a year, I decided it was definitely not something I could really understand or get behind. I think church belongs in the church, and school belongs in the school, and never the twain shall meet on the same ground.

Which is why the pledge of allegiance really bugs me. Originally it didn't even have the words "under God" in it, that was tacked on by an act of Congress in the 30's from what I understand.

Speaking of the pledge, how do other American atheists in this thread feel about it, and how do you handle it when everyone else is saying it around you?



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
But he's taught my daughter to believe in heaven and I'm fried. I told her that heaven was a make-believe place. She keeps telling me that she believes in it because her father does.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. As long as you can tell her what you believe she'll eventually decide for herself. When I think of how strongly I was indoctrinated, and I still made it out, I know anyone could.


Originally posted by Edn
Do any of you have thoughts on this being non-religious do you think it could still be important to teach people about other religions?


Your RE classes sound interesting. However, religion is so not a part of my life, I don't see a particular advantage in learning about different religions in school unless it was in college and the students had a desire to learn about them.

It's kind of like learning about the different kinds of farming in grade school. Why? Perhaps if a person is interested in farming, they could take classes, but just to teach kids about it doesn't really make sense to me...



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Speaking of the pledge, how do other American atheists in this thread feel about it, and how do you handle it when everyone else is saying it around you?


I don't say it. I don't have to make a show of how I feel about my country to other people. The "shows" of patriotism, like saying the pledge or singing the National Anthem while standing with a hand over the heart? I don't do it. If other people want to do it, that's great, but just because I don't stand up and do all these rituals doesn't mean I don't love my country.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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I generally stand up but don't put my hand over my heart or say the words. People in England used to mock me about it, nobody else in the developed world prays to their country's flag from what I've seen.

It's the same as prayers at Thanksgivings and other meals. I just can't deal with it anymore. My favorite place to go for Thanksgiving is my friend's house, where all the people who don't have lots of family nearby come. Very secular, no praying.

My building has meals on the holidays for the residents. The Easter meal is always put up by the church around the corner. I think that their taking their own holiday, making us a huge, delicious dinner, and serving it to us is most praiseworthy. I appreciate it very much.

However, they give a sermon and have us pray before we eat. And I don't go anymore. Some of my other neighbors that aren't churchy go and say they just ignore it, but I can't take it. I'd rather eat my baloney sandwich and Coke privately upstairs in my apartment.

Maybe someday I'll get to a point where this sort of thing doesn't make me utterly uncomfortable so I can go and participate, but I really cringe at the idea of spending 30 minutes listening to god talk before I can eat.


Edn

posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


Originally posted by Edn
Do any of you have thoughts on this being non-religious do you think it could still be important to teach people about other religions?


Your RE classes sound interesting. However, religion is so not a part of my life, I don't see a particular advantage in learning about different religions in school
Well how about to have a better understanding of how other people think because of there religious beliefs, thats my main reason for learning a little about religions not because i'm interested in converting to that religion but because it gives me a better understanding of how other people live there lives according to there religions so that when someone blows them selfs up in a bus in the name of Allah I know that its not really how the majority of there religion would act and its not really in the name of Allah.

A lot of people when they hear of a terrorist attack think of one thing straight away 'Muslim' they throw all Muslims into the same bucket with no regard for what they may actually believe, there all evil Muslims and need to be dealt with. A little over exaggerated maybe that thats whats thrown all over TV and the lack of proper understanding of the religion means thats that people will believe when they here the word Muslim.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:15 PM
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Those are good reasons, but in grade school, I don't think it would work here.

I took cultural anthropology in college, and have read incessantly all my life, and got my understanding of religions and the like that way. Once my kids are into the age of reason, after age 7, I'll make available to them books on different religions if they like, and talk to them about it.

I've studied religions and mysticism all my life, and the study has led me here -- knowing a little about a lot of different religions, a considerable amount about Christianity, and buying none of it for a millisecond.


Edn

posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Speaking of the pledge, how do other American atheists in this thread feel about it, and how do you handle it when everyone else is saying it around you?
Its another form of brainwashing really. You don't need to show your patriotism, its automatic and expected if its the right thing. I don't go singing the flower of Scotland every morning, there isn't even a Scottish flag for miles but when someone attacks our country were not just going to sit by and do nothing because we don't sing under a flag every day, were going to kick there asses (literally if you've seen the recent news
) back to where they came from.

edit: to stay on topic (i compeltely forgot to write what i was going to write)

Wasn't it the law to separate church and state? if so is it even legal to have god referenced in anything let along the pledge of allegiance.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by Edn]


Edn

posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Those are good reasons, but in grade school, I don't think it would work here.

What age group is grade school? we were pretty much forced to go to church in primary school (4-9(10) i think) not often but often enough. in Hight school 10(11)-16(18 if you stay on) RE was mandatory in 3-4 year and optional in 5-6 year I don't think we did it in 1-2 year, we also had to go to church in 1-2 year a couple of times and we had assembly's held in the school for things like easter, Christmas, etc the other years although they were kind of optional, in post cases you didn't have to participate but you had to go.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Edn


Wasn't it the law to separate church and state? if so is it even legal to have god referenced in anything let along the pledge of allegiance.



You'd sure think so, wouldn't you? In my opinion it's part of the slippery slope that's led to Evangelical control of the executive branch of the government. God is on our money. Maybe it's why our country is so hypocritical in all strata of life.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Edn
What age group is grade school? we were pretty much forced to go to church in primary school (4-9(10) i think) not often but often enough. in Hight school 10(11)-16(18 if you stay on) RE was mandatory in 3-4 year and optional in 5-6 year I don't think we did it in 1-2 year, we also had to go to church in 1-2 year a couple of times and we had assembly's held in the school for things like easter, Christmas, etc the other years although they were kind of optional, in post cases you didn't have to participate but you had to go.


Now this offends me to my very roots. There's a saying in some churches here, "Get them young and raise them up right in the ways of the lord."

This tells me that churches know full well that to have the strongest effect on a person's life, they have to be taught about church and god before they hit age 7. This is the time kids are still ruled by magical thinking, and their personalities and interests are being set for the rest of their lives. Forcing small children to go to church really offends me. It's not giving them the perspective to choose for themselves if they want to believe or not.

Most of the people I've encountered that are the hardest to have a rational discussion with about whether god exists or not are the ones that were taken to a very fundamentalist church from a very young age, and often homeschooled so that actual scientific reasoning and critical thinking weren't taught to them.

It just smacks of cult brainwashing to me. I don't know how anyone manages to break this sort of early childhood conditioning, and my hats off to whoever is capable of doing so.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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I'm an agnostic but I was a few years ago formerly an atheist, in fact a hardcore one that was extremely offensive. I would constantly talk about wiping out religion, I would insult Christians regularly. I even started to use Christian as an insult, much in the same way people would call someone a "Jew". Then it became "Christian scum." or "Christian filth.", and then it became "Christf***er". I would actually say genocidal things in regards to Christians, saying I wanted to exterminate them

I mellowed out and became agnostic after an incident at the very end of 2005 that changed the way I thought about things, changed my life in a way. Oddly enough that incident had nothing to do with religion.

[edit on 7/9/2007 by Kacen]



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 07:20 PM
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Welcome to the thread, Kacen.

Do you have any idea why you'd be so hostile about being an atheist? I'm curious about the mechanisms of deciding there is no god, and the repercussions it has on one's life and emotions.

For instance, was it about throwing off what you perceived to be some kind of chains? Or was it anger at buying what you thought was a lie? Etc.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:35 AM
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Just wanted to post the school info that was asked for.
Here in Cali, most go by this.
Kindergarten through 6th grade is elementary school
7th-8th grade is Jr High
9th-12th is High School



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 08:16 AM
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Feel free to post more than just school info, Vckums.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
IF there is a higher power, it's made of pure love. That's it. That's all we need to know.


Why? Maybe "god" is "evil", and he made this universe to watch sentient beings form civilisation and exterminate each other

That's what I'd do.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by DarkSide]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 11:55 AM
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Well, if that's the case, I hope he's enjoying the show! It's working out just as he planned!



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Keep the church in the church, I say, and leave the rest of us alone. I would go sit in on a Sunday if I wanted to hear this stuff. I don't, so I don't go. Having it shoved down my throat at a public, non-religious meeting is a bit much, disrespectful, and annoying, IMO.


Sort of ironic, you know, how you display your avatar and signature everywhere too.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 03:37 PM
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This thread is for discussing aspects of atheism. Do you have anything to add to this conversation or are you just here to cause a problem?





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