Islam Under Seige

Originally posted by dbates
The west finally stuck their noses right into the middle of a century old conflict.

This several decades old its not a century. Their conflict was mostly political being that the minority Sunnis were controlling a majority of Shiites. It was not occurring during the Ottoman empire since obviously there were no Western style politicial parties at the time since it was part of an Empire. In any event we did not see such daily occurances until after the WOT. Maybe occasionally but not like it is now. Allowing those people to run rampant in the beginning looting the place didnt help much, and allowing these contractors to roam freely shooting people was also a catalyst. Lets not also forget the couple of times that westerners were even caught red handed dressing as arabs with bombs in their vehicles. It seems this has been practiced many times in the Middle East and has been used successfully for many occasions.

Arming the pissed off shiites and making them Policemen was another big mistake with the sunnis being sitting ducks.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
No I would not dispute that but they were not there before the War On Terror came into existence and we attacked Iraq. Do you dispute that?

No they were not. That still does not condone their actions in any manner though.

Hezbollah did not exist before. They came into existance after Israeli agressions had already occured numerous times.

Look at the pursestrings of Hezbollah and see who their money masters are. All those "social programs" they provide aren't really free. It is common knowledge that the parent of Hezbollah is Iran and they would not be in existance were it not for Iran's funding of it. They are merely Iran's pawns in this big game of chess.

Look at it this way, the followers of YOUR RELIGION, are killing MY PEOPLE in the name of YOUR GOD.

Dont expect us to appologise.

It should be noted that some of our own home-grown Christian funnymentalists are just as bad as the Islamic ones, the Christian Reconstructionists come immediately to mind... ditto with some of the Jewish funnymentalists in Israel. The big difference is the levels of success they have had. Here in the United States and also in Israel they have had considerable success and influence in comparison to their actual numbers. So, while there are violent elements are present, the imagined need for it is not present.

IF the Christian and Jewish funnymentalists felt as threatened as the Islamic ones did in the time frame of the end of WW2 and the assassination of Sadat when the whole of the middle east was experiencing not just rapid modernization, but rapid secularization, a great influx of undistributed wealth coupled at the same time with massive unemployment and the meddling influence of the cold war powers, then perhaps their reactions would be more extreme and violent as well.

Nothing happens in a vacuum... despite all the right-wing rhetoric Islam is no more aggressive or violent than Christianity... the myth of conversion by the sword is just that, a myth.

The English historian of religion, Karen Armstrong has written several very interesting books on this subject: "Holy War: The Crusades and their Impact on the Modern World"
"The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism and "Islam: A Short History" that I highly recommend on the subject.

A similar bombing in March in Tall Afar, a town near the Syrian border that also has a large Turkmen population, left more than 80 dead. Shoppers were lured to their death by the promise of free flour from the back of a truck. The reprisal attack(the next day) claimed the lives of 70 Sunnis
latimes.com
It's pretty clear that these attacks were targeting other Muslims. The terrorist targeted the marketplace in both instances to kill as many civilians as possible. If they were going to kill coalition forces they would have driven to an army base or outpost. There's a definite power struggle between the Shiite and the Sunni sects. This has been going on since Muhammad died, so nothing really new here. The west finally stuck their noses right into the middle of a century old conflict.

Indeed. What the globalist and socialist must understand is this; radicalislam is equal in its prey. This org is out to destroy the idea of Western Life.

Sharia law is the case to be argued and won. Do you want your women to wear a scarf on their faces andl have to pray 5 times to mecca per day...? Beleive in the war of ideolgies. It is real, and we are en route to this battle everyday at work, play and church.






[edit on 7-8-2007 by tyriffick22]

Pieman,
Could you explain to me how the american occupation has forced the AQ and other similar organisations into attacking innocent civilians? I just can't understand that...

If they were fighting only coalition troops i'd have nothing against them, as i would be killing US troops if they occupied Finland...

Originally posted by tyriffick22
Sharia law is the case to be argued and won. Do you want your women to wear a scarf on their faces andl have to pray 5 times to mecca per day...? Beleive in the war of ideolgies. It is real, and we are en route to this battle everyday at work, play and church.

Sharia Law only effects Muslim

ist only countries like Saudi that ist forced apon others.

all none muslims are excempt from Sharia law. so why would the be freaking praying 5 times a day if there not Muslim?
and wear burkas. this is a battle of commen sense

The OP states
"All the above rambling leads me to the questions I really want to ask. I'm hoping some of the Muslim members here answer with some thought, as I am looking to learn something.

Do you have concern regarding the direction your religion is taking? Are the fundamentalists so ferocious that they threaten the way of life of peaceful Muslims? Do they threaten the very basis of what most hope Islam should be about? Hypothetically, if all the western world suddenly said, "sorry Islam, we were wrong, we're leaving the Middle East, and Israel is moving to New Mexico, go about your business", what direction would Islam take? Would fundamentalism continue you to grow in Islamic countries both inside and outside the Middle East?

Would fundamentalism wither and die, or would it snowball? It just seems so ruthless, even toward its own people."

Of the 26 replies so far how many have been posted by Muslim members?

I have stated some of my thoughts in other threads and in an effort to gain a greater understanding would like to hear the opinion of more "normal" Muslims on what is a great post Musky. www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovepolitics.com...

It is very hard in the UK to get away from the opinion that whilst not all Muslims follow extremist beliefs the majority do nothing to prevent those involved in preaching fundamentalism and committing acts of terrorism.

So Muslim ATS'ers, if "The West" pulled out of the Middle East and if a peaceful settlement was agreed in Israel / Palestine, would the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism cease or is it inherent in the Islamic faith?
(I would discount the idea of some "genetic" driver, IMO that's bordering on racism :flame

Generally and historically speaking terrorism is a last gasp rear guard action. Funnymentalism is a reactionary movement as well.

Odds are the next generation will view these options as failed efforts and choose different courses; unless of course we continue reinforcing the notion that we are waging a war against Islam by our iron fisted methods.

"So Muslim ATS'ers, if "The West" pulled out of the Middle East and if a peaceful settlement was agreed in Israel / Palestine, would the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism cease or is it inherent in the Islamic faith?"

2 days later, how many posts, what, if anytthing, does that tell us?

I didn't notice the recent replies to this thread. It's true that my main question never really was answered. Many of the posts dealt mostly with who is to blame for prompting the extremism. Lots of the threads here eventually end up rehashing those same arguments. I was hoping for a different perspective. I wonder if moderate Muslims are concerned with the direction their faith could possibly take given the ferocity of Muslim extremists. Is mainstream Islam in general threatened by it's own extremism?

Could be a number of reasons it wasn't answered I guess.

Maybe it's a stupid question moderate Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) don't feel deserves an answer.

or

Maybe the question was not clearly stated. I haven't posted much. I'm working on it.

or

Maybe the question causes a bit too much discomfort if the answer is yes, the extremism is quite worrying to those that are more moderate.

Originally posted by Musky

Maybe it's a stupid question moderate Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) don't feel deserves an answer.

or

Maybe the question was not clearly stated. I haven't posted much. I'm working on it.

or

Maybe the question causes a bit too much discomfort if the answer is yes, the extremism is quite worrying to those that are more moderate.

It's not a stupid question and it has been clearly stated on several occassions.
I honestly thought that it may have been the ideal opportunity for some of the more representative members of the Muslim membership to post their opinion and help generate better understanding of Muslim beliefs, thoughts etc.
There are obviously a few Muslim posters whose opinions and thoughts seem quite reasoned and clear of rhetoric and dogma and whose posts I respect.

Maybe your last observation is closer to the truth than some of us may have expected.

*face palm*

I fail to see how a religion hell-bent on destroying itself and its followers can even be "under siege."

Do you honestly believe that if Islam (as a religion and a philosophical way of thinking) was completely wiped off the planet and from the collective consciousness, the world would really be worse off?

Some things just aren't worth fighting for, my friend. I'm afraid Islam is one of those things.

Islam has a long and honorable history. Regardless of its condition today it is part of the patrimony of humanity and without it we as a species would be a lot pooer.

Parts of the history and development of Islam is indeed honourable and has benefitted mankind.
Parts of the history and development of Islam has been barbaric and has been detrimental to mankind.
The same can be said of all organised religions.
However, we are currently experiencing an upsurge in Islamic fundamentalism whose teachings seem harsh, uncompromising and even barbaric to most non-believers and some / most Muslims as well.

I have never personally advocated completely wiping Islam off the face of the planet. I merely wish to know how Muslims think their religion would develop if "the west" were to pull out of the Middle East and peace were to be achieved in Israel / Palestine.

Ill make this post short and sweet If you get the time please check out the book The Age of Sacred Terror by DAniel Benjamin/ Steven simon.
I found this book to be very on the up and up on this issue.
I to findmyself doing more reading than posting but thought I would share this book title with you all here.

Thanks zysin, haven't read the book but have had a look at reviews etc and intend to buy it tomorrow, for anyone else:

“[The] book’s most important and lasting contribution is its exploration of the relationship between al-Qaeda’s toxic message and the Muslim mainstream. [The authors] examine in considerable detail the gradual evolution of Islamist political thought, describing the timeless influence of Islamic thinkers such as the thirteenth-century theologian Taqi al-Din ibn Taymiyya and the eighteenth-century preacher Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, whose ideas form the political and religious foundation of modern Saudi Arabia.”
—Ellen Laipson, Foreign Affairs

www.randomhouse.com...

Better yet try Karen Armstrong's "Holy War: The Crusades and their Impact on the Modern World". She traces the history of holy war through Judaism, Christianity and Islam and how the notion affects the conflicts raging today; and among other things, points out that once a conflict has been dubbed a holy war, it is well on its way to spinning out of control.

A very intelligent and well informed read. I highly recommend it as well as her "The Battle for God: a History of Fundamentalism" and "Islam: A Short History".

Thanks grover, plenty of bed time reading for me.

One thing that has just struck me; it seems to me that it's only western, and by assumption, christian, judaic or possible atheist authors who seem to be examining root causes of the current conflicts etc, again, I would be interested in a Muslim interpretation and their perspective.

Oh well, pub time again

Karen Armstrong attempts in those books what she calls a triple vision... each sections are written from the respective, Jewish, Christian and Islamic prespectives and then she attempts to pull them together to present an overall vision. Very well done indeed.