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Terror Incidents Expose Flaw in Socialized Medicine

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posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 07:21 PM
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The recent car bomb incidents in London and Glasgow were noteworthy in that the perpetrators turned out to be medical professionals. This is in and of itself noteworthy, since our perception of the typical terrorist is of an illiterate loser, and these attacks were planned and carried out by educated men of science. Another noteworthy fact is that many of these doctors were from mideastern countries.

This brings up another question, however: how is it that there are so many mideastern doctors in Britain? The answer is simple: Britain's National Health Service.

The NHS is a state-sponsored socialized medical service. It is a huge bureacracy, with many of the inefficiencies common to socialized medicine, including long waits for patients seeking treatment. In fact, it has the infamous nickname of "Take a Seat".

The salaries paid by the NHS do not compete with private practice, so this results in a shortage of native doctors, who often move to more lucrative markets such as the US. This shortage must be satisfied by importing doctors and nurses from abroad, and many of these imports come from mideastern countries.

Britain imports a high percentage of the physicians necessary to support the NHS. And they have typically undergone only the most cursory of background checks. With this huge requirement, it is not surprising that it was ripe for the type of terror attacks that recently occurred there.

So, the relatively low salaries paid by socialized medicine result in a brain drain which must be made up for by importing foreign doctors.




posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 07:28 PM
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Actually this thought had crossed my mind as to why there were so many foreign doctors in the UK and if it was because of the socialization of health care.



posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 07:29 PM
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Its something that eats at the back of my head at night when I sleep.
I have never liked hospital anyway.. They reek of death, and just not the place I like to be for many reasons..
But I have had this thought, most all doctors I see anymore are of muslim deceint. So what would be stopping a large mass of evil doctors?
These guys are the smartest in the world, and make great docs.
But all it would is take 1 evil doctor in each state to inject 1 person with a virus.. And it would spread like wildfire!!
Think about it.. How many docs you know are from the middle east?
And how many times have you heard how most the terro comes from these men who come here, do well in school, rise to the top, only to get inside and kill us from within?
Prehaps me thinking this way is just what our government wants, is my fear. Or its the terroist who want my fear. Either way, I know all its going to take is one day in the hospital and a very big plan could be brought to us all that way..



posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 08:48 PM
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zysin5, you are correct. We have seen the effect of the doctors using car bombs as terror instruments. But we have not yet seen them at their deadliest, which would be using their medical skills to spread terror.

It chills the spine to think of it...



posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

It chills the spine to think of it...


Ooohhh, scary!

Makes me glad I was born in the Home of the Brave, else my spine might be chilly too!

Dear God when will the fear mongering end?

You do realize that you are far, far more likely to die from damn near everything else other than terrorism, dont you?


Even if terrorists were able to pull off one attack per year on the scale of the 9/11 atrocity, that would mean your one-year risk would be one in 100,000 and your lifetime risk would be about one in 1300. (300,000,000 ÷ 3,000 = 100,000 ÷ 78 years = 1282) In other words, your risk of dying in a plausible terrorist attack is much lower than your risk of dying in a car accident, by walking across the street, by drowning, in a fire, by falling, or by being murdered

www.reason.com...

Scary stuff huh?



posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 09:56 PM
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So in short: socialized medicine = terrorism.

Now let's tell people in UK it's better to pay $20.000 for simple operation and be safe than pay $0 and take a risk of being attacked by evil doctors. God bless corporate medicine!



posted on Jul, 6 2007 @ 10:31 PM
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When you operate an open system in a free country which does not persecute people because of their place of birth sometimes you get taken advantage of.

It is the price we pay.

And I can say that pretty happily even thought I live in the city that has just been attacked.

p.s. I've seen the evidence on these guys. I know people who worked with them. You would have had no idea what they were up to.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by 11Bravo
Ooohhh, scary!

Makes me glad I was born in the Home of the Brave, else my spine might be chilly too!

I know what you mean. Things like that have never happened before. Biological weapons are a figment of my imagination.

Just ask the Native Americans whose ancestors died from smallpox-infested blankets.


Dear God when will the fear mongering end?

Maybe when the attacks by organized, well-funded, ideological groups against innocent people end?


You do realize that you are far, far more likely to die from damn near everything else other than terrorism, dont you?

I'd say that depends on where you spend your time. What is true in Boise is not true in Sadr City.

Besides, living your life by actuarial tables doesn't ensure total safety.



Scary stuff huh?

I think this is where you are confused, and where false bravado may prove to be your eventual demise.

I am not afraid. I am, however, cautious.

You try to minimize the threat by labeling it as "baseless fears". You might have a point, if the attacks didn't keep on happening. That's where your argument falls apart.

[edit on 7-7-2007 by jsobecky]



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by Nerdling

When you operate an open system in a free country which does not persecute people because of their place of birth sometimes you get taken advantage of.

It is the price we pay.

No need to shoot the messenger. I'm well aware of the price we need to pay for our way of life; I live in the US, after all.


p.s. I've seen the evidence on these guys. I know people who worked with them. You would have had no idea what they were up to.

So, if they were able to keep their activities out of the eye of society, does that change your mind at all about the way things are done? Knowing what you now know, is it the responsibility of your gov't to use that newly found information to make any changes in screening procedures or entrance requirements?



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 08:26 AM
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I really don't think you can blame Great Britian's socialized medicine on this one...
we don't have socialized medicine in the US, but still if I go to see a doctor, there's a very good chance, I won't be able to understand them...
we have the foreign doctors here in the states in large numbers also...
many are from the middle east...or India, Pakistan. or where ever.
and well, take a trip to you local university and see who is studying microbiology, ect.....



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 08:58 AM
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on the TV news coverage...the 24 hr type...
it turns out that the 'Doctor' who was arrested last,

was a dud as a MD student, it was just because his father was
in the uppity-elites of Doctors & had so much status at that med school
that the radical student was allowed to pass & graduate.

Yes, he was a radical fundamentalist, as a student---and interrupted classes to spout his radical agenda on the class or labratory...
and he must have had it in his mind to become a secret saboteur
thru hiring on in the British Social Medicine program...

???wonder why his radical leanings weren't looked into while the gov't agencies were processing his working papers ??

sound like the same negligent attitudes at FBI, CIA, counter-terror,
which allowed cells to operate here in the US & culminating in 9-11



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:12 AM
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What's this word socialized? Do you socialize down the pub?

It's socialise, jeebus...

If your going to rip on us British, at least spell correctly.

Anyway, it's utter garbage. I bet you have more foreign doctors working in the US than we have here in the UK. Screen everyone well do we? I'm sure you do...


Fact of the matter is, the NHS employs 1.3 million people.

8 Employees have been arrested on suspicion of terrorism, yet people are saying that the NHS breeds terrorists?

So, in line with this thought process, if less than 0.0007% of an organisation is convicted of terrorism, then it can be assumed that the organisation itself breeds terrorists by it's very nature?

Give over with your drivel and stop projecting your paranoid rubbish on us. Stop flipping out and see things in perspective (incidentally, it seems FOX is carrying this line of thought...must be true then!).

Bottom line is we don't go bankrupt staying alive if we have cancer or fear for our retirement because we caught a chronic disease.

I'd rather trade the absolute, microscopically, minuscule chance of a doctor being a terrorist rather than follow the abhorrent American model.

For crying out loud, Harold Shipman, the UK's worst serial killer (200+ victims), was a Doctor, yet he was White and trained in the UK. I say I have more to fear from types like him than Muslim doctors.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
I really don't think you can blame Great Britian's socialized medicine on this one...
we don't have socialized medicine in the US, but still if I go to see a doctor, there's a very good chance, I won't be able to understand them...
we have the foreign doctors here in the states in large numbers also...
many are from the middle east...or India, Pakistan. or where ever.
and well, take a trip to you local university and see who is studying microbiology, ect.....

I'm not blaming this on socialized medicine. I'm saying that the structure of the socialized medicine system in GB left the back door open, is all. The same thing could happen in Canada, I suppose, or any country that imports a large number of doctors.

As for the US having foreign doctors, well, pretty much every country does, with the exception of maybe Saudi Arabia. But Britain imports twice the number that we do.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
The NHS is a state-sponsored socialized medical service. It is a huge bureacracy, with many of the inefficiencies common to socialized medicine, including long waits for patients seeking treatment. In fact, it has the infamous nickname of "Take a Seat".

The salaries paid by the NHS do not compete with private practice, so this results in a shortage of native doctors, who often move to more lucrative markets such as the US. This shortage must be satisfied by importing doctors and nurses from abroad, and many of these imports come from mideastern countries.


Those two paragraphs show you actually know NOTHING about the NHS.

Wait times are incredibly short. Wages are very high. The ACTUAL reason for the high amount of imports is because we are not TRAINING enough doctors.

Most of our young 'uns don't want to be doctors. Many do other courses and many cannot afford the ludicrously high training fees required.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:30 AM
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how can the structure of socialized medicine provide an open back door??

and well, speaking of back doors....the governments all seem to like our front door wide open.....look at our danged immigration policies...

the government, at least my understanding, employs the danged doctors....they are responsible for the background checks, and they have the intelligence data needed to perform them..IF THEY WANTED TO.

whereas, in the US, one must pass college courses, and get the degree...and well, it's a group of fellow doctors that regulates if you should be in practice or not...or how you practice your medicine...the government...the one with all the intelligence data has for the most part a hands off policy.

the thing is....the governments DON'T WANT TO....they want the threat, they want to people kind of scared, so they'll go along with whatever the government says.


[edit on 7-7-2007 by dawnstar]



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
the government, at least my understanding, employs the danged doctors....they are responsible for the background checks, and they have the intelligence data needed to perform them..IF THEY WANTED TO.


Central Government plays no part in the employment decisions of various NHS trusts, it's all done on a department by department, trust by trust basis. Same as if you were going for a job anywhere else.

The Government is responsible for performing security checks on migrants and any submitted for review by employers (I myself had to be Security Cleared to do my job). That is not the responsibility of the Health Service to do those checks.

That is where there is a misconception here, the NHS is not at fault. The doctors would have been submitted to whatever checks where required by law. They obviously passed. The Government is at fault, not the NHS.

At this point, I would point out the NHS is not one giant organisation, but rather many, many different trusts for different area's, so the Bureaucracy thing is a misnomer, as individual trusts are no bigger than a large Corporation.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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Where are these ideas coming from?? I'm quite sure I heard right after 9-11 that the highjackers were educated men from the Middle East, not illiterate losers.

The red herring about these men and socialized medicine is the biggest catch of the day! My God, 27 years ago in my American small town I couldn't understand my newborn son's pediatrician. It wasn't until I got home that I realized he was trying to say to put Vaseline on his navel. There were nurses who I couldn't understand. These people gave quality care, mind you, but they definitely were not born here.



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 10:59 AM
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so, basically, it's generally the same situation as we have in the US.....hospitals hire their own, some with health clinics...ect...
so....how can the problem be the socialization of the system?



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
What's this word socialized? Do you socialize down the pub?


For crying out loud, Harold Shipman, the UK's worst serial killer (200+ victims), was a Doctor, yet he was White and trained in the UK. I say I have more to fear from types like him than Muslim doctors.



I agree with every thing you have said in this thread mate*shakes hand*
but on a side note i have noticed Harold Shipman had a beard

Perhaps the old duffer was a closet koran reader,i have feeling Fox news might run with that story



posted on Jul, 7 2007 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
so, basically, it's generally the same situation as we have in the US.....hospitals hire their own, some with health clinics...ect...
so....how can the problem be the socialization of the system?


Exunctly....


It's just typical right-wing hype against it thats actually baseless in fact. Often, it springs from a complete lack of understanding, which is self evident in this case.



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