The truth about the Roswell Incident

Originally posted by Access Denied

LOL don’t try to change the change subject. Explain to me why ALL of the people (except Vernon Brazel who’s never said anything AFAIK) who can actually be proven to have seen the debris gave descriptions of it that are entirely consistent with a crashed Mogul balloon. You can’t.

I do believe Jesse Marcel Jr. has seen some of the debri. He certainly doesn't think it was a ballon. Marcel Sr. was also one the bases Intel Officers, it seems strange he DIDN'T know about Project Mogul. Marcl Sr. is also on film stating they couldn't burn or dent some of the material if I can recall correctly. That also doesn't sound like a ballon made with balsa wood.

He could have been a gunner and participated in an aerial flight. A gunner is not considered 'flying experience'. It may be considered 'flying in an experience' but thats not the same.

Ah, sure, could have thought of that myself.
Thanks for the answer

he has a picture of his dad's certificate for graduating from radar school 2 years before the Roswell incident

ah that must be from this training course pflock mentions in his book

Marcel's military record shows he took a three-week course in airborne radar, which dealt with its use for bombing and navigation, not tracking weather balloons

[edit on 9-7-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by Access Denied
That doesn’t make any sense. Why would he need to sell a book to “clear” his Dad’s name? He already has a website, why didn’t he just post the information there? Or better yet, post it for free on ATS?

What is it that you skeptics have against someone wanting to write a book? When you have a hot topic, why should you give it away free? Your going to get ridiculed by the skeptics anyway, so what wrong with making a buck on info?

Last I heard making money is the American way... surely you are not against that are you?

The other thing about books is once its written, you can go back years after and see the same words, unlike websites that vanish or get edited. I have found many texts and photos in older books that are quite interesting.

The other thing about doing research and giving it away free, means someone else gets to take your work and use it in a book to make money

Originally posted by zorgon
Last I heard making money is the American way... surely you are not against that are you?

I'm against fraud.

Originally posted by yeti101
Its ashame we cant do polls on ATS, i'd love to see the % of poeple who beleive in the roswell spaceship.



[edit on 5-7-2007 by yeti101]

Out of two choices, weather balloon or the "flying disc" version, I'd have to go with the flying disc or in my opinion, Alien Craft.
A previous post mentioned something that I've thought all along, how can there be any confusion concerning the difference between a burst and torn weather balloon and a metal disc?

Sorry there was no alien craft at Roswell.

Once the 'story' got started, if anything the disinfo-intel group may have actually planted some clues or let people think they saw 'bodies'.

It may have all been a cold-war ploy to make someone think we might have recovered 'alien tech'.

How the original event got started may be close to what 'Access Denied' suspects. Then someone took the ball and ran with it, but when Ramey found out, he nixed the whole plan and they had to retract the press releases.

Originally posted by yeti101
ah that must be from this training course pflock mentions in his book

Marcel's military record shows he took a three-week course in airborne radar, which dealt with its use for bombing and navigation, not tracking weather balloons

[edit on 9-7-2007 by yeti101]

Yeti, thanks for the info on the book. I must read.
But Yeti, he would have, at the very least, been able to identify radar targets and would have known about RAWINs as well. And, don't you think anyone would be able to tell the difference between a long weather balloon/Mogul type balloon and a DISC? Also, he would have known what a radar target was as well.
There were never any blackboxes found either, which would have been on a weather balloon/Mogul.

If you haven't already then try reading Gazrok's article on Roswell. It's pretty long but a good read and he's done some great researching.

Roswell article

hi forestlady- i honestly dont know if he would be able to tell or not. But he has a good track record of telling whoppers. I dont think his testimony is reliable. Other people might but he just doesnt do it for me.

how can there be any confusion concerning the difference between a burst and torn weather balloon and a metal disc?

the press release said "flying disc" , but why does anyone make up stories? usual motivation- become famous, get some money, cheap thrills. or maybe he did genuinly mistake the debris- i have no idea.

[edit on 10-7-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by Badge01
Sorry there was no alien craft at Roswell.

Sorry, I didnt realize you were there and knew for sure..
You have your opinion and I have mine.

LOL-No doubt Kronos.

I was just watching the DVD "Flying Saucers are real" with Stanton Friedman yesterday, and there are so many people that went on record in front of camera testifying what they went through, particularly with DEATH THREATS from the military to keep silent. I highly doubt that they would threaten the lives of civilians over a balloon. LMAO

AccessDenied, my problem with believing your information is that you don't seem open-minded about Roswell. Some of the greatest minds on the planet have tried to find out the truth, to no avail. Yet you are so cocksure that it wasn't ET's and you call everyone involved a liar. This is not a good mindset for a researcher. More facts are coming out now, we have more to work with, but you don't believe any of them and then try to twist information according to your own beliefs.

ANd Yeti, could you provide some proof that Jesse Sr. was given to telling "whoppers" and if so what are they?

Well, people -say- they had threats, but back when it happened, it's well known that it was considered a 'non-event'. People quickly forgot about it and it wasn't until Stan Friedman found out in 1978 that people started telling stories.

You may have seen the show on Discovery channel where they walked some people past some yellow police tape in an area purported to be some cordoned off military site with guards. It was for a psychological experiment.

When they re-interviewed the participants people, who were wearing cameras on their headbands, said that soldiers with guns rushed them with guns pointed. Reviewing the tape, nothing at all happened. The one girl didn't even see a soldier, it was just suggested to her.

So it's not unheard of that people who think they are telling the truth are actually mis-remembering what happened.

Now the Roswell 'witnesses' had 30 years between the event and their recounting. The witnesses in the experiment were re-interviewed in a matter of weeks.

Remember, Roswell has probably the all time high for witnesses that were later proven to be fibbing, embellishing and changing their stories:

Gerald Anderson - discredited
Walter Haut - told several different stories, and another story in his deathbed affidavit.
Jesse Marcel - lied extensively about his military service
Frank Kaufmann - changed his story many times
Bill Brazel Jr. - changed his story, embellished.
Glenn Dennis - embellished, possibly outright lying.

From Wiki:

Of these 300-plus individuals, said Pflock, only 41 can be "considered genuine first- or second-hand witnesses to the events in and around Roswell or at the Fort Worth Army Air Field," and only 23 can be "reasonably thought to have seen physical evidence, debris recovered from the Foster Ranch." Of these, said Pflock, only seven have asserted anything suggestive of otherworldly origins for the debris

Even Frankie Rowe, the major source for rumors of being threatened, tells a disputed story about her father and Firefighters being called out to the crash. Others say they never did - it was too far away from town.

I think the discovery of a newspaper article caused some people to realize that they had a chance to be a part of history, even if that history didn't exactly happen the way they claim.


[edit on 10-7-2007 by Badge01]

ANd Yeti, could you provide some proof that Jesse Sr. was given to telling "whoppers" and if so what are they?

all the stuff about his military career- 5 medals, shooting down 5 airplanes- the Bob pratt interview - its a couple of pages back.

Pro Roswell ufologist and roswell author Kevin Randle also investigated the claims after Pflock published his book. He found that Marcel did lie about those things. But choses to ignore it.

EDIT oh wait i think i know what you mean. Lying about the debris to the press in 1947? I still dont know- remember the memo never said they recovered an alien spaceship- he may have thought it was a russian spy device- that was the big fear of the military at the time as to what these "flying discs" were.

Marcel/ haut may have genuinly thought they had one of those "flying discs" and reported it as such. Maybe marcel wanted to be the hero who first retreived one of those "flying discs" and secretly hoped it was alien. I dont know

I think access denied has more idea of what went on with the press release at the time. I must say it looks like they couldnt identify it and jumped the gun on the "flying disc" claim

Its a key point lots of roswellians overlook. "flying disc" in 1947 means - something that fell out the sky and you cant ID. There was more than 1 "flying disc" retreival in 1947- but those "flying discs" has USAF written on them and sound alot like radar targets- These were reported to the press as "flying discs" by people who found them

[edit on 10-7-2007 by yeti101]

One version of the story has Brazel storing the largest part of the wreckage in his barn or shed; it was supposedly 'disc-shaped', but only a few feet in diameter.

Maybe he mentioned 'disk', and that it came from the sky. It doesn't take too much imagination to morph that into 'flying saucer'.

Where we now think of it as a craft, a saucer-shaped or disk-shaped lower part of the rawin target, you could say was flying when attached to the balloon, and was in effect a 'flying disk or saucer' - just not a craft..

Maybe Walter Haut was just excitable at the time and misunderstood about reporting the story, ending up doing it essentially on his own.

In any event, there are quite a few plausible scenarios that don't have to involve a 'craft' or bodies. Some of them are just driven by misunderstandings, and some might might even involve disinformation.

Originally posted by Badge01
It may have all been a cold-war ploy to make someone think we might have recovered 'alien tech'.

That or to make someone think we had a handle on the UFO “problem” (craze, flap) which made us appear vulnerable when in reality we weren’t really sure if what people were reporting represented a threat or not.

Some analysts at the time (and even still) actually thought Russia (or others hostile nations) might be conducting a psychological warfare campaign to distract our resources away from an invasion or (especially today) other activities.