They Come From Within

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posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
There is only thing I think SI may possess a possible fragment of and that is the idea that some individuals are more conscious than others.


may i ask if you suggest that it is the higher minds that maintain the status quo of reality? That is a very interesting concept.

One thing it does present- is the truth of an actual hierarchy.

very interesting read
please do go on.



[edit on 4/7/07 by Glyph_D]




posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 03:42 PM
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When it was said not to eat from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” some ate and found a knowledge they use today to hold those that have not eaten captive. The only way to fully understand without divine intervention would be to eat of the same tree which it is advised not to do. With the vast array of media today, people are sharing information.

As we approach the changing times eyes are being divinely opened to an understanding of what has been happening and what will happen in the very near future. People are finding out who they have been calling on. I think this is the reason for the increase in the phenomenon called UFOs. For others, the powers that be will not relinquish their stronghold willingly and are looking for ways to sabotage the truth.

It is documented historically, that there are beings celestial and terrestrial. There is love and there is hate. There are those that help and there are those that hurt. No one has to be a scientist to understand that. Even Shakespeare said “the fault is within ourselves”. People either send love or hate and that is enough rope for people to self destruct, which is the course that this world has been following.

I read the following quote today (another website): “America has the government she deserves”. In that regard, if they are choosing to keep people blind, perhaps it is because “they can’t handle the truth”. Think about it, very few choose virtue over power, when in reality it is virtue that is the power.

In addition, peace does not need a master.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 05:39 PM
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If UFOs aren't extraterrestrial vehicles, then how do you explain all of the radar accounts? Are the radars picking up interdimensional glowing beings or something? I don't think so. Many pilots have described actual metallic crafts flying near them...

I would believe in beings from Zeta Reticuli before I would believe in beings from other dimensions...



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by Diplomat
I would believe in beings from Zeta Reticuli before I would believe in beings from other dimensions...


Diplomat, so how do you explain away this one?


According to purported witnesses, the Virgin Mary appeared in different forms over the Coptic Orthodox Church of Saint Demiana at Zeitoun for a period of 2–3 years beginning on April 2, 1968. The apparitions lasted from a few minutes up to several hours and were sometimes accompanied by dove-shaped luminous bodies. They were seen by millions of Egyptians and foreigners, including Copts, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews and people of no particular faith...
The apparitions were also witnessed by President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and captured by newspaper photographers and Egyptian television. Investigations performed by the police could find no explanation for the phenomenon. No device was found within a radius of fifteen miles capable of projecting the image, while the number of photographs from independent sources suggests that no photographic manipulation was involved.

source:en.wikipedia.org...

Below are some photo's of this BEING FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION.





[edit on 4-7-2007 by Palasheea]



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 06:13 PM
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They Come From Within continued...

Here's a brief recap of what's been covered so far to try to put everything in perspective.

"Aliens" and UFOs have been part of human culture at least as long as we could write. I would speculate the phenomena was around before recorded history as well. There is a link between them and mythology, religion, fantasy, and the Psyche.

Both Physicist Jaques Vallee and Psychiatrist Carl Jung recognized these links which would give birth to the Interdimensional Hypothesis and the Paranormal/Occult Hypothesis.

Contactee Cults in one form or another go back at least to the 1700s, with a number of commonalities, especially visions, channeling, and mediums. The concepts of visions, channeling and mediums have been part of human culture at least as long as we could write and most likely were around before that.

Abductions have been linked by psychiatrists to sleep disorders while parapsychologists have linked them to Near Death Experiences and Out of Body Experiences. Post Abduction Syndrome appears to be a real disorder like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Something traumatic is happening to these people. "Abductions" are not a new phenomena and have been happening for ages.

Quantum Mechanics with its relation to the Human Consciousness possibly through Entanglement. The possiblity that Consciousness is trans temporal.

That our minds may contain the keys to an "Other World" or reality.

Part of my hypothesis is that all of the above are linked and some of it is clearly connected, while some is more esoteric in nature. In the following Ill try to show how the Human Psyche is able to connect with another reality.

The idea that our minds could link with otherworlds is a very old one dating back to Tribal Shamans before religions were organized. The Shaman performed a function similar to a priest as a mediator between the Other and Humans. Shamans were also quite different than priests.

Joseph Campbell on Shamans:
"The priest is the socially initiated, ceremonially inducted member of a recognized religious organization, where he holds a certain rank and functions as the tenant of an office that was held by others before him, while the shaman is one who, as a consequence of a personal psychological crisis, has gained a certain power of his own."

Intiation into Shamanism was often a traumatic event involving what in modern times would be considered an Abduction.

Often Shamans would link with what they called the Spiritworld. When linking to this other world they would go into a Trance or Altered State of Consciousness. Connecting could go both ways. One where the Shaman's consciousness would enter the Spiritworld or where entities in the Spiritworld would enter the Shaman. In modern times this would be called an Out of Body Experience where one enters an Altered State and projects their consciousness somewhere else. The latter would be called Spiritual Possession.

Shamans used a number of methods to enter an Altered State. Music, Fasting, Dancing, and various Psychoactive Drugs such as Peyote and Psilocybin Mushrooms.

I think that the phenomena of Trances or Altered States may be part of the path to this other reality. It could be the opening of the gate to another world not our own that can be reached from within.

Altered States are not always a willed act. Numerous external factors can cause them by accident: fever, sleep deprivation, starvation, lack of oxygen, and even massive trauma. When attempted intentionally they may be brought about by meditation, sensory deprivation, prayer, and the ingestion of psychoactive drugs. '___' is among these. It is also known as Dimethyltryptamine.

In 1988 a study was done at the University of New Mexico where 20% of volunteers injected with '___' experienced encounters with "alien" entities.
They took on various forms from typical aliens, clowns, reptiles, and mythical beings. The reported entities were experienced as the inhabitants of somekind of mental realm.

In the 1990s at UNM Dr. Rick Strassman advanced the idea that natural '___' was released by the Pineal Gland at near death. Several subjects involved in his experiment experienced contact with "other beings" often insect and reptile like in technological environments. The subjects experienced events typical in abductions such as probes and tests.

'___' itself is a Tryptamine. Tryptamine is thought to have a role in neuromodulation and transmission. Serotonin and Melatonin are also Tryptamines. Psilocybin found in various mushrooms is another Tryptamine.

My opinon is that these chemicals play in important role in the quantum neurochemistry that involes the mind processing and transmitting quantum information. Note '___' and Psilocybin are controlled substances, thus illegal to use or distribute. I have a feeling that reasons behind '___' being a controlled substance are more than meets the eye.

Altered States also occur naturally in dreams, euphoria, out of body experiences and channeling.

Part of my hypothesis is that Abductions likley occur while in a Trance or Altered State. What is being abducted may not even be the physical body but the psyche or consciousness. It appears that the consciousness is taken into another realm of reality. This reality may not only be able to reach into our world and pull an individual consciousness into it, it can hack into an individual's mind and take control of it.

Possession has been part of human culture as long as UFOs, bizarre entities, visions, mediums, channeling, and abductions have been. They are tied together by I think the mind and quantum entanglement. These are different aspects of the same phenomena. Possession may allow these entities to interact in ways they normally wouldn't be able to in our world.

What about physical effects? Radar, Cameras, Scars, Implants, Burns, and other physical phenomena? This is where Weird meets the really bizarre. If the Entities come from Within how do they operate in the Physical world as we know it?

I call it Phantasmagoria after the poem by Lewis Carroll.

Michael Coleman Talbot wrote book called The Holographic Universe that explores the concept that the universe is a massive hologram.

To be Continued...



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by Diplomat
If UFOs aren't extraterrestrial vehicles, then how do you explain all of the radar accounts? Are the radars picking up interdimensional glowing beings or something? I don't think so. Many pilots have described actual metallic crafts flying near them...


Dont worry this is coming next, our universe is much stranger than most people think. First though I'll be enjoying Fourth of July Celebrations then I'll finish the next part. I'll be covering Psychokinetics, Thought Forms/Projections/Manifestations, the Holographic Paradigm, Cognitive Dissonance, Reality Shifts, and what I call the Phantasmagoria.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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Mikeboydus;

Here is some supportive evidence for your hypothesis!!!!

At the end of your third page you stated:

“A key concept in my hypothesis is that our mind can process and transmit information at the Quantum level. This appears to be the key to access a reality that may be beyond our own.”

I just got my SCIENCE FRONTIES [www.science-frontiers.com... ] bi-monthly newsletter, No. 172. In it Mr. Corliss reviews two articles/letters published in the journal NATURE: (“Unconscious Networking”; 447:46, 2007 by Pinsk, Mar A. and Kastner, Sabine); and, (“Intrinisc Functional Architecture in the Anaesthetized Monkey Brain”; 447:83, 2007).

Mr. Corliss abstracts the two articles/letters as follows:

"Our brain, it seems, may be much more than an organ that provides us consciousness when it’s turned on and sleep when idling.

"Actually, recent magnetic resonance imaging suggests that our brain never idles…never rests. It’s always operating close to full power. Even when a conscious individual indulges in intense mathematical computation, his brain’s energy consumption increases only a trifling amount. Even in deepest anathesia, the brain has its pedal to the metal, and it’s full speed ahead! But where is it going?

"Human consciousness seems to be just one of it’s functions. And, sure, it also organizes its data banks (whatever they are biologically) and expends energy in other “housekeeping” chores. But J.L. Vincent and colleagues have shown that the organized activity patterns in the brain’s neural networks are not tied to the so-called conscious state of mind. In their letter published in Nature, they hint that evolution has fashioned more profound tasks for the brain….

"…Thus, we have an evolutionarily conserved “device” that on one hand gives us consciousness and neurological support in passing but has other goals that at present transcend our understanding!"


Excellent work, Mike! I believe you would have the endorsement of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, Don Juan Matus and all of Buddhism, among many other ‘Paths’.
It makes perfect sense that our brains operate at the Quantum level. Thanks.

(Oh yes. Ever the pedant, I must point out that the word “irregardless” it thought to be incorret as it incorporates a prefix and a suffix at the same time (unintended entanglement). The accepted spelling is “regardless”.)



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 09:46 PM
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I think that the phenomena of Trances or Altered States may be part of the path to this other reality. It could be the opening of the gate to another world not our own that can be reached from within.


The mind has several gates. One opens to peace, the others do not. What the mind harbors is the connector, and will draw the same to itself.


Altered States are not always a willed act.


I agree. Bad people, do bad things to other people who do not have the same evil mindset. Would an implant/drug/bug be necessary to inflict if a person was dealing justly and had true influential power?


It appears that the consciousness is taken into another realm of reality. This reality may not only be able to reach into our world and pull an individual consciousness into it, it can hack into an individual's mind and take control of it.


The consciousness can also be deluded into believing something that has been concocted. This repeated over time will create a false memory. Once in the memory, tell me, how would one extract it. Is this what you would want for yourself?


They are tied together by I think the mind and quantum entanglement.


And remember, if you leave the breadcrumbs the birds will eat them.

Evil is a learned act that needs no encouragement.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 11:06 PM
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MikeboydUS,

This kind of thinking and knowing has been the norm for me. Just the fact that many have vivid dreams and some of us actually can be lucid in our dreams, allowing for interesting journeys.

I hope people here don't discount dreams, because they are the portal to many interesting things, answers, but only if you remain lucid.

I have achieved many OBE's in my life the first being involuntary, now my questions these days to myself are do I actually leave my body or do I go within?

Most people will jump up and down and claim they leave the physical body, but I would like everyone to think about this.

What if you, me, we any of us whether we meditate, Astral project, leave the body, die instead we actually tune into to the oneness and start to see all things everywhere, so time, space, matter, etc has no boundaries, so basically we go from the I, me, center of being, to just a oneness center. Allowing us to see all.

What if our individualities, egos, self, etc are or create our own walls and the only way to see past these walls is to break them down to see the truth.


Just a thought.



[edit on 4-7-2007 by Realtruth]



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 02:01 AM
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They Come From Within Continued...

Michael Talbot's book The Holographic Universe examined two Holographic Theories. One was proposed by American physicist David Bohm who worked on the Manhattan Project. Bohm thought that the universe was more or less holographic in nature. He laid the groundwork for his idea in his book, Wholeness and the Implicate Order. He dubbed the concept Holomovement.

In addition to Bohm's theory a second was also examined, Karl Pribram an Austrian Neurosurgeon and emeritus professor of Psychology at Stanford University School of Medicine formulated with the help of David Bohm the Holonomic Brain Theory. Pribram stated in reference to HBT, "What the data suggest is that there exists in the cortex, a multidimensional holographic-like process"

Pribram on Quantum mechanics and psychology.
"this is the critical thing -- that if indeed we're right that these quantum-like phenomena, or the rules of quantum mechanics, apply all the way through to our psychological processes, to what's going on in the nervous system -- then we have an explanation perhaps, certainly we have a parallel, to the kind of experiences that people have called spiritual experiences. Because the descriptions you get with spiritual experiences seem to parallel the descriptions of quantum physics."

Pribram's and Bohm's theories were combined into one overall theory, The Holographic Paradigm.

One of the primary principles in the Holographic Universe explains why Quantum Entanglement can occur across Space and possibly even Time. Space and Time as we know it are "Illusions". According to it the "distance" between entanglements does not exist, that a Holographic Unity exists at the level of Quantum Mechanics.

According to it there is a Holographic principle that is the basis of not only our Memory but Reality itself. That Information in reality can be accessed in a manner comparable to a search engine, by association. All information in the holographic model may be cross correlated.

I think they are definitely on to something that has yet to be addressed properly. How is it that Entanglement can occur regardless
of space?
Is reality united by Entanglement? Can Vast amounts of information be contained and accessed by Entanglement? I think reality is interconnected possibly at the quantum level. I'm not sure about the term Holographic though as it could lead to misunderstanding in my opinion. Until a better term is coined I guess I'll have to stick with it though. I think Entanglement can access all kinds of things not just Information but Entities as well. I imagine it as a Network, but other terms could be used Net, Web, and even Tree. I think it may be the same as Jung's Collective Unconscious.

The Phantasmagoria is a concept of my own. It is related to the various ideas and concepts that have so far been covered. In fact I may dub my Hypothesis: The Phantasmagoria Hypothesis. The Mind may act as a Gate through Entanglement while in an Altered State. This Entanglement may reach out across Space and Time. Information and Entities may be linked with an Individual Mind. Entities may in fact be able to project themselves into our reality through us.

These projections may be the same as the concept of Thought Forms. I call them Phantasms or Phantoms rather than Thought Forms since they may be different than Thought Forms. They can be of any shape or size. They can appear as Mythical beings, real people, animals, vehicles, and in modern times UFOs and Aliens. I believe they may be Psychokinetic in nature and able to interact with our reality. They can appear as solid as steel and even leave traces of their existence.

These projections can give off radar signatures, be video taped, and photographed. How this exactly works is something I am still working on but I think it is a result of Entanglement and may be related to Quantum Teleportation. I think Quantum Transmutation may be the best term for it.
A non human consciousness manifesting itself in our reality through entanglement by altering properties at the quantum level in a manner like Quantum teleportation but on a macro scale may be a good way to describe it. Another term that may be comparable is Avatar.

I think that some UFOs are man made. Others are misidentified natural phenomena. The ones that are neither man made or of a "natural" origin I believe are of this Psychokinetic origin.

In the area of pure speculation the idea that these UFOs and the Entities associated with them may have a bizarre origin is something that certain sections of the government may of figured out a long time ago. I would not be surprised if it was in the 1950s that something comparable to Majestic of conspiracy lore realized they were not dealing with extraterrestrials.

There may be somewhere a compartmented section of the government or military devoted to the research and study of these entities. Considering what the government invested into Psychic phenomena I would not be surprised if the government had experimented with channeling and mediums in making "First Contact". I can only imagine the results of it.

At some point they mustve realized the entities were of a very deceptive and manipulative nature. They may of even discovered their impotence in dealing with abductions and mutilations.
At this point they may not be much closer to the truth than we are.

Next Up....The Conclusion.



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 03:45 AM
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Fantastic Read!!! I love any and all theories, especially when it is supported with excellent supportive reads and experiments!! Can't wait for the conclusions and then perhaps more!!

I've always had amazing and beyond realistic dreams my entire life.. Most of the times, I am actually upset and disappointed that I came back and didn't continue with my dream!! It was that fantastic and realistic!!

Thanks for sharing your theories and thoughts!! Keep up the great work!!



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by mikeboydus
He came up with an idea called the Interdimensional Hypothesis. The concept here is that "aliens" originate from either higher dimensions or parallel universes. The aliens are non human consciousnesses which may or may not have physical forms that are able to manipulate reality. They can masquerade in any form from space visitors to mythological beings.
They appear to be masters of deception, propaganda, disinfomation and social control.


Interesting post mikeboydus, I'm still reading through it, but this caught my eye, and I just wanted to comment that this is precisely what David Icke states with his Reptillian malarky, and he's usually looked upon as a laughing stock.

[edit on 5-7-2007 by VelvetSplash]



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
My opinon is that these chemicals play in important role in the quantum neurochemistry that involes the mind processing and transmitting quantum information. Note '___' and Psilocybin are controlled substances, thus illegal to use or distribute. I have a feeling that reasons behind '___' being a controlled substance are more than meets the eye.


100% correct IMHO. There is an inherrent flaw with '___' being Class A/Schedule 1.. the flaw is that it exists in every human being, right now, in the middle of the brain! You have a chemical in you right now that has the potential to unleash the most revelationary experience one can encounter... yet its "illegal".

The one point i think everyone should remember about '___' and Psilocybin, is that these "chemicals" are so similar to your own neurochemistry, specifically the neurotransmitters serotonin and melatonin. They are practically made for your brain.

One should also bare in mind that your brain has receptors and the capability to use these chemicals for a reason. It is no accident. It puts a whole different spin on the term "evolution" when you realise the true interconnectedness between man and nature. It is also no accident that certain plants contain these chemicals.

They have the potential to heal beyond anything synthetic medicine can do. Shamans are the worlds oldest healers, and we could all learn a thing or two from their controlled usuage of these powerful substances.

"I believe that God left certain drugs growing naturally upon our planet to help speed up and facilitate our evolution." - Bill Hicks. RIP.



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 09:28 AM
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Maybe some encounters are of an supernatural nature, and others are of an extraterrestrial nature.



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
My opinon is that these chemicals play in important role in the quantum neurochemistry that involes the mind processing and transmitting quantum information. Note '___' and Psilocybin are controlled substances, thus illegal to use or distribute. I have a feeling that reasons behind '___' being a controlled substance are more than meets the eye.


I think there is something to this comment. These compounds are used and have been used for as long as man has been around by the Shamans, Indians, and many others seeking spiritual journeys. And your comment about them being controlled for a reason is very interesting for sure, because I have read that it is naturally produced by the Pineal gland in the Human body, go figure.

Did any of you know that '___' is produced naturally by the body?

'___' produced by the Human Body



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Realtruth

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
My opinon is that these chemicals play in important role in the quantum neurochemistry that involes the mind processing and transmitting quantum information. Note '___' and Psilocybin are controlled substances, thus illegal to use or distribute. I have a feeling that reasons behind '___' being a controlled substance are more than meets the eye.


I think there is something to this comment. These compounds are used and have been used for as long as man has been around by the Shamans, Indians, and many others seeking spiritual journeys. And your comment about them being controlled for a reason is very interesting for sure, because I have read that it is naturally produced by the Pineal gland in the Human body, go figure.

Did any of you know that '___' is produced naturally by the body?

'___' produced by the Human Body


True, but synthetic adrenaline is a controlled substance as well, even though it is no different from natural adrenaline. A chemical that is produced by the body in small concentrations can be harmful in larger concentrations. While '___' doesn't have many negative side effects, there still is the possibility of a bad trip, which may be why it is illegal.

It's interesting that you mention the spiritual applications of '___' because recently the Supreme Court declared in a unanimous opinion that a religious group must have the right to use a tea containing '___' in their religious ceremonies. Potentially, this could be used to expand usage of '___'.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by Diplomat
I would believe in beings from Zeta Reticuli before I would believe in beings from other dimensions...

I agree with Diplomat.


There is an abundance of evidence that the aliens stem from the Zeta 2 Reticuli System and are humanoid.

For example:

Home of the Grey Alien?

Zeta 2 Reticuli - The Greys' Home System?

There is also a HUGE difference between extraterrestrials on This Side (i.e., incarnate aliens) and Group Entities on the Other Side (i.e., discarnate communities). The latter have been known to create holographic pictures like the well-known image of the "Virgin Mary."

The key reason why many have speculated that the aliens are interdimensional or that they can teleport is because of the Zetans' ability to cloak their spacecraft and probes. This technology has been pursued by the US Navy in the infamous Philadelphia Experiment in 1943. The goal was to produce stealth from radar for a destroyer called the US Eldridge. What resulted was not only radar stealth but also optical invisibility


Produce a strong enough electromagnetic field around a craft or object and it becomes optically invisible - with grants the illusion of teleportation or of interdimensional travel.


The Zetan-aliens have simply perfected the cloaking process so that their crews are insulated from the adverse affects of electromagnetism.

More and more people are now aware of and using infrared night vision equipment in order to be able to view cloaked probes and ships that are invisible to the naked eye. This issue is addressed in the documentary UFO: The Greatest Story Ever Denied.

DENY IGNORANCE




posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by uberarcanist

It's interesting that you mention the spiritual applications of '___' because recently the Supreme Court declared in a unanimous opinion that a religious group must have the right to use a tea containing '___' in their religious ceremonies. Potentially, this could be used to expand usage of '___'.

en.wikipedia.org...


I remember reading about this case, because it was a landmark case. This particular tea is made from roots and bark. I think there is actually videos online about the church. This particular tea has been consumed by shamans in central and South America for year.



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Palasheea
.

-- This 'staging place' or realm is comprised of unlimited loci of Mandelbrot set-like distributions and each being who transitions from their physical world into this staging place goes to those Mandelbrot set-like distributions that they are most energetically or whatever... matched up to.

-- For example, earthlings go to the MB distribution where all earthly humans go. And within this 'earth' Mandelbrot distribution/loci are countless other sub-loci within it where each person will go to the one they are most resonate with. The same goes for all other beings from other planets. Those Mandelbrot set-like distributions that they are most resonate with have attractors that draw them in to where they are supposed to be.


[edit on 4-7-2007 by Palasheea]
I saw one of these MB "openings" a few times, (from within). They were perfectly circular black holes surrounded by light. The genuinely do SUCK. If I can open these then I believe millions of others can too, either from here or from some other realm. I'm sure there are beings who use them as major routes from one world to another.



posted on Jul, 5 2007 @ 01:33 PM
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Researched well indeed...though you are missing one important component...if this were true, why stay below ground or even underwater? Especially when we are not as advanced as they seem to be...not to mention there would be incidental evidence of this all over the globe, deep drilling, underground nuclear testing, scanning the ocean floor with satelites, etc...."I" submit that all the stuff we are seeing is made right here on terra firma by humans....large amounts of money goes unaccounted for every year in the US alone (we've all heard the ole stories about toilet seats costing uncle sam like $500 a piece)....i believe this is where the money is flowing, military/R&D/Tech markets. And it's beyond me as to why people insist on almost 'lowering' our predaliction for adapting to our environs, people are far smarter than one would like to think. The pyramids were indeed engineered by people using simple geometric/trigonometry slolutions, as well as the most simple of tools. Recently, being interested most in the 'flying triangles' i've read maybe 10 reports that witnesses have submitted describing seeing ID's of military branches on the craft themselves i.e USAF, etc. So, i dunno, i still feel that if there were aliens living amoung us, for them to remain hidden makes zero sense logically.



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