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Man Sexually Assaulted for Refusing to Convert To Islam

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posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by DaRAGE
BEcause i was pretty damn sure that in the koran it says that the non-believers must be killed.....


Actually most of these do not talk of killing and those that do are taken out of context so I still do not regard them as anything remotely close to the truth.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54


I don't see the word kill. It says do not take them as friends. Do you kill those who you don't like or regard as "not your friends"?


Originally posted by DaRAGE
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98


And what is this? Notice how it is talking about Allah. As this sentence is taken out of context you have no clue as to the message this is supposed to give to muslims. And again - it says he is an enemy to non-believers. I have many enemies, and you can take my word for it I have never commited murder.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161


Kill...death...gangrapes...nope. Curse. This word could mean alot. And again, it's talking about Allah cursing them, and again it's taken out of context: we do not know the instructions it gives to muslims about how to deal with unbelievers or anything of that sort. All it is saying is that non-believers are bad men.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191


Ah, the first time we run into anything about killing - slay. You need to pay close attention to this part of the sentece: "Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out". Although it is take out of context, I will put my money down on the fact that that passage is talking about invaders for the following reason - the Koran does not call for a global execution and conquest. The message here is probably talking about their own land and that's it. Ofcourse I am assuming this so I can be very wrong.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5


Idolater: One who worships idols. Christians do not worship an Idol. Atheists don't worship anything. This doesn't sound like Europeans or Americans to me.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29


Fight, not kill. Since it is taken out of context we cannot tell by what means muslims should fight, and to what extent. If you could get the whole passage for this one it could be proof but even then, it still does not say kill. If you have ever studied the Bible you would know well not to take religious scriptures literally


Originally posted by DaRAGE
(another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell.

If this is out of the Koran (no doubt it is) this still says nothing. Abode: a dwelling place, a home. Is this not the exact same thing the Bible tells us? there is nothing to do with killing here.


Originally posted by DaRAGE
(another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.


Humiliate, not kill. You are misinterpreting these quotes by a very large margin. I would even think this is the exact same thing the terrorists do to draw and recruit people into their ranks (not saying you are one DaRAGE). You have to think real deep with holy scriptures, of any religion. In this case, if you were to kill the person in the prosses, or humiliate him to the extent that he kills himself....that's not him surrendering. That's if this passage is from the Koran, it only says external source on the side.

This is just me doing my best to argue the opposite point of view just for the sake of getting a good discussion going. I'm no muslim but have grown up half my life in muslim countries. I can't say i know their ways too well but I am familiar with them. They are good people, and it is the extremists who bend the Koran to make it sound like Muslims have to go to war. As you have noticed more then half (not all) of the quotes you provided had nothing to do with killing.

My personal opinion - The Koran teaches not to kill people, but non-believers are not considered human, or atleast the lowest of the lowest. I know that the Soviet soldiers going into afghanistan were taught this: for a Muslim to kill a non-believer is a path to heaven *** A Muslim would never disgrace his house with blood, and must always honor the guest of the house. However once you leave the doors of his home the same person that has been serving you tea 5 minutes ago just might shoot you in the back, because to kill a non-believer is a path to heaven. This could be just soviet propaganda but on the other hand one of the passages you listed above was talking about "land taken" from muslims. Could that be it? Honestly if there is anyone on ATS who is well familiar with Islam please clarify this for us.

Hows that for me? ...seems like you might have a slight problem with taking any islam quotes calling people bad as a sign for them to go killing to say the least. Look for the best in people man. Like I said, many extremists simply take similar lines plain out of context and use them to justify their causes. We should not be as blind as to follow along with them into believing that the Koran preaches death.

Regards,
Maestro



[edit on 3-7-2007 by maestro46]




posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 09:20 AM
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As for the event - homosexuals are condemed by islam. If this article is true then these people are not true muslims. Most of us tend to generalize muslims and think that all of them are alike. Just like christians they have their own branches of islam, and by far not all stick as closely to Islam as the Koran tells them to. Just like Christians, just like Jews. Just because 30 homosexuals got a stiffy and decided to rape a christian their actions do not speak for all of Islam (I can hardly relate them to Islam), and if they claim that this is for the Muslim cause this does not mean that the muslim communities all support this. However about the beating - Muslims do have a history for giving the life or death option to those they conquer. Then again (lol) hardly all of us can say we follow religious guidlines to the bone.

The point I've been trying to make in the last three paragraphs I wrote - all men are sinners. Religion (and those who follow it to a proper extent) should not be held accountable for those who use it, twist it's meanings, or misinterpret it.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If I had dark skin and was to go on a rampage with an automatic in the center of some city yelling "In the name of Allah!" simply because I've lost my mind, or for whatever reason imaginable, what would it look like on the evening news? As I said befor, I'm not a muslim. The news would probably say I read something radical and adopted the religions a few days proir to the incedent when in fact that would not have been the case. Do you see what I'm saying?



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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johnsky:


If this is true, it is certainly sickening... but I find this to be a pretty tall tale unless facts are brought forward. It sounds more like something you'd hear from a drunkard at a bar than something from the news.

If I had to bet, this is probably sensationalism. Someone probably hated Islam enough to make a bogus report to sway public opinion. We'll just have to do the reasonable thing and wait and see what the investigation comes up with.


GRRRR. I find the above speculations exceedingly offensive. These sorts of actions in Pakistan as well as similar regions

ARE actually FAIRLY ROUTINE--this was extreme only in the degree and duration--degree in the numbers doing the raping and the number of hours it went on.

SOME such stories hit the main stream media. MANY OF THEM DO NOT--out of very understandable fear of worse retaliation on one's family members. But fellow missionaries report plenty of such evils to their colleagues. And all of our mission sending organizations insure that members know that no ransom etc. will be paid.

I realize that the NWO folks have demonized Christianity and made it vogue to trash, abuse and otherwise punish folks who are authentic Christians. Nevertheless, sometimes the dismissive, derisive hostility toward Christians hereon is outrageous in and of itself. It seems that many folks are blind to the degree to which the Main Stream Media controlled by the powers that be HAVE ALREADY ALTERED their sensibilities.

Of course this is a true story. Check it out. If you want to read more such true stories, read CHRISTIANITY TODAY magazine or a host of smaller mission organization newsletters.

Sheesh.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 11:43 AM
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maestro46:



As for the event - homosexuals are condemed by islam. If this article is true then these people are not true muslims. Most of us tend to generalize muslims and think that all of them are alike.


Certainly it depends on the relative terms . . . "true muslims" . . .

However, evidently you have not talked with a number of folks who've spent lots of time with the pilots in training from say Saudia Arabia . . . doing flight training in Texas . . . where . . . before marriage . . . all more or less faithful Muslims . . . it was considered quite kosher to bugger gays or whomever they could seduce. And, many contend that this is fairly standard behavior in many otherwise orthodox Muslim regions.

Evidently the bugger-er is not even considered that much out of line or that much violating Muslim morality. To be buggerED is considered, oddly, more of a violation of Muslim morals. And, it's not kosher to go back to buggering after marriage.

In short, I found the quoted assertions above very ill-informed and offensive.

From the link below are a few brief quotes from an excellent article by a FORMER JIHADI for comparison and perspective.

www.dailymail.co.uk...


By HASSAN BUTT

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network - a series of British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology - I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.






More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

The attempts to cause mass destruction in London and Glasgow are so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that they are likely to have been carried out by my former peers.

And as with previous terror attacks, people are again saying that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy.






If we were interested in justice, you may ask, how did this continuing violence come to be the means of promoting such a (flawed) Utopian goal?

How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion?

There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

Formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion: they are considered to be one and the same.






For centuries, the reasoning of Islamic jurists has set down rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

But what radicals and extremists do is to take this two steps further. Their first step has been to argue that, since there is no pure Islamic state, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr (The Land of Unbelief).

Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world.

Along with many of my former peers, I was taught by Pakistani and British radical preachers that this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War (Dar ul-Harb) allows any Muslim to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief.

In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians.




posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 11:58 AM
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That's the way to convince someone your religion is the pathway to God. By bludgeoning and raping them repeatedly. Cos that's what God would do.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 01:36 PM
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FYI, in many parts of the world, only the "passive" partner is seen as committing a "homosexual" act. Being the "active" partner is not as socially stigmatized (because the man is not seen as taking on the sexual role of a woman, thus it's not seen as a "homosexual" act.)



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 01:46 PM
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xmotex is correct in the way these islamofascists view their actions. And don't think this type of incident is unique in the islamofascist world, sexual assault is one of their favorite tactics against the infidels or non-muslims and probably because they are rejected by baboons regularly.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to spenserjohnstone

I doubt seriously that the percentage of closet gays in Islamic circles is greater than in other populations.

What does reportedly seem to be the operant factors . . .

1. Marriage is delayed until arranged, managed etc. . . . often until late in a viril man's life per our standards and much later than a teen or young adult's raging hormones.

2. There really is, according to many reports from diverse even Islamic sources . . . a kind of unwritten law, standard, custom . . . double standard even . . . that men BEFORE MARRIAGE . . . doing the inserting are not considered homosexuals or even that immoral. The poor bloke receiving the insertion IS considered immoral and probably even gay.

3. The pilots training in Texas that I've dialogued with others about really considered their buggering friends they seduced etc. to be little more than whacking off in the shower. There was no or virtually not the slightest guilty consciences vis a vis Islam morality.

4. It can probably be argued that they were slipping and sliding about this or that Islamic sensibility depending upon which Imam or writing or standard one appealed to. But the fact appears to be the case that this is fairly wide-spread without much censure at all from even the religious police in most Islamic areas. . . . unless, of course . . . one happens to be the one receiving the insert; perhaps one happens to be low in rank; or perhaps one happens to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. But for a huge percentage of the inserters of all walks and intensities of Islamic life and faithfulness . . . the practice is guilt-free and punishment free.

5. Add in the issue that when XYZ Islamic authorities delcare that the whole world is at war with Islam . . . and therefore Islam is at war with the whole world, ANYTHING BECOMES FAIR GAME, RELIGIOUSLY LEGAL AND OK --per such authorities and their followers-- . . . AS LONG AS IT'S THE INFIDELS who are the victims.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 03:02 PM
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bodrul:



what ever they are they areant muslim as homosexuality is against islam so they can say they are muslim as much as they want


I would encourage you to research this extensively before making such an all encompassing flat statement.

The evidence I've read from a diversity of sources indicates it's not AT ALL that simple or clear-cut.

After marriage, yeah, the standards get tougher and more consistently applied. Before marriage, in MOST Islamic regions I studied about it in . . . the assertion just doesn't hold water.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 03:21 PM
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WHAT!!!!

I think it had more to do with the pack of flaming homo's than religion. Although I dont care much for the muslim beliefs. I dont condemn the religion and those who do believe because of a group of ----, well you get the meaning.

How do you go about punishing a group such as this? I can imagine all sort of horrible tortures but how do you extract a worthy punishment without becoming monsters yourself. I pray for the victim and hope he doesnt go all Charles Bronson on them.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 03:34 PM
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Mark Foley and Jeff Gannon are booking their tickets for a fact finding tour.
Elton John is looking to buy a home there. Lance Bass and Clay Aiken are holding out for Ryan Seacrest to join them in a 3 way...
I mean EXIT ONLY it is the way God intended



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 05:22 PM
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A friendly reminder. Let's not let this discussion degenerate into a Jr. High joke-fest. Please stay on topic and abide by the site's rules.



1b.) Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by BO XIAN
I would encourage you to research this extensively before making such an all encompassing flat statement.

The evidence I've read from a diversity of sources indicates it's not AT ALL that simple or clear-cut.

After marriage, yeah, the standards get tougher and more consistently applied. Before marriage, in MOST Islamic regions I studied about it in . . . the assertion just doesn't hold water.


i am a muslim
so i would know more then you when it comes to my faith and culture

read my sources.

and do not assume my statements are flat as they are the words of a muslim about the islamic faith



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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My Muslim roommate disagrees with you wholesale.

He's Moroccan and, as thousands are, descended from Mohammed.

You may be Muslim. I do not accept your perspective as 100% accurate about all things Muslim.

Sunis murder Shias, and vice versa, after all. And NOT because of agreement! Sheesh.

Sounds to me like some research COULD still be of benefit. Then again, one would have to have an open mind to the facts of history, society, sociology etc.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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I would like to add that we have many gay members here that find terms like "fags" a derogatory term. Let's post with decorum please. This is ATS not yahoo chat.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by BO XIAN
1. Marriage is delayed until arranged, managed etc. . . . often until late in a viril man's life per our standards and much later than a teen or young adult's raging hormones.


so, you saying because they wait until marige they turn gay?
what baseless statement.
and what does this have to do with the Gay rape?

if you done your research you would know homosexuality is against islam and in many islamic countries punishable by death.


Originally posted by BO XIAN
2. There really is, according to many reports from diverse even Islamic sources . . . a kind of unwritten law, standard, custom . . . double standard even . . . that men BEFORE MARRIAGE . . . doing the inserting are not considered homosexuals or even that immoral. The poor bloke receiving the insertion IS considered immoral and probably even gay.


what a joker please show me your sources
unwritten law what a pathetic joke. as stated before Homosexuality is against islam no matter how you try and dress it up (yes even with your so called unwritten law :@@



Originally posted by BO XIAN
3. The pilots training in Texas that I've dialogued with others about really considered their buggering friends they seduced etc. to be little more than whacking off in the shower. There was no or virtually not the slightest guilty consciences vis a vis Islam morality.


and straight away you decide to assosiate them with all muslims
how narrow minded




Originally posted by BO XIAN
4. It can probably be argued that they were slipping and sliding about this or that Islamic sensibility depending upon which Imam or writing or standard one appealed to. But the fact appears to be the case that this is fairly wide-spread without much censure at all from even the religious police in most Islamic areas. . . . unless, of course . . . one happens to be the one receiving the insert; perhaps one happens to be low in rank; or perhaps one happens to be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. But for a huge percentage of the inserters of all walks and intensities of Islamic life and faithfulness . . . the practice is guilt-free and punishment free.


please show me your evidence that shows that homsxual acts in islamic countries dont go without punishment. i would love to see you back this up


Originally posted by BO XIAN
5. Add in the issue that when XYZ Islamic authorities delcare that the whole world is at war with Islam . . . and therefore Islam is at war with the whole world, ANYTHING BECOMES FAIR GAME, RELIGIOUSLY LEGAL AND OK --per such authorities and their followers-- . . . AS LONG AS IT'S THE INFIDELS who are the victims.


oh please dont be so pathetic

some info for you to indulge your self in


Originally posted by bodrul
in this section i have linked to three sites with information on Islam and war and how it should be conducted and the reasons why muslims should go to war

it also explains what JIhad is which has been misunderstood


source

Approximately fourteen hundred years ago, prophet Muhammed ,the last in the line of the prophets of Islam (Submission), delivered the Quran, the Final Testament. Islam (Submission in English) was founded by Abraham. Ever since the Renaissance, its believers have been subjected to difficulties. From the Inquisition in Spain and Andalucia to the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Chechnya, the Muslim people have endured colonial regime and economic and military oppression. By the means of media, Islam (Submission) has been given a sinister image in the eye of the public opinion, this notorious image is mainly due to the ignorance and misunderstanding of the media and public. A word which is often heard and associated with the acts of certain individuals, claiming to act in the name of Islam, is the Arabic word: Jihad. Its significance plays an extremely crucial role in the image of Islam. But what does this so widely known word mean?
Jihad has a great significance in the lives of Muslims (Submitters in English). Like any language, Arabic has unique words which have a particular meaning which cannot be translated precisely. The best translation known for such a word is the following: a sincere and noticeable effort (for good); an all true and unselfish striving for spiritual good.

Jihad as presented in the Quran and any of the other scriptures implies the striving of spiritual good. This Jihad particularly involves change in one's self and mentality. It may concern the sacrifice of material property, social class and even emotional comfort solely for the salvation and worship of God ALONE. As a result, one who practises Jihad will gain tremendously in the Hereafter*.

"The Hereafter is far better for you than this first (life.)"(93:4)

"Say, "O my people, do your best, and so will I. You will surely find out who the ultimate victors are." Certainly, the wicked will never succeed."(6:135).

The Jihad involves noticeable effort for righteousness. This means that the effort concentrated in the Jihad is a step in the true and ultimate path of Islam (submission); the effort imposed on one's self. Thus Jihad is solely individual, self-centered and self-interested. This effort is only the doing of good for salvation and pardon of God. The Quran points this out in the following verse:

"The day will come when every soul will serve as its own advocate, and every soul will be paid fully for whatever it had done, without the least injustice." (16:111).

" The day will come when each soul will find all the good works it had done brought forth. As for the evil works, it will wish that they were far, far removed. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. GOD is Compassionate towards the people. " (3:30).

In respect to the above Quranic verses, God tells the believers that all acts will reflect the soul of their authors. Examples of this Jihad would be to exceed in the sincere act of good deeds (to frequent the mosques that worship God alone more often; to study the scripture in detail, to help the poor and the orphans, to stand for people's right for freedom, be equitable, never bear witness false testimony, frequent and stay in good terms with friends and neighbors, etc.) and the restraining of the doing of sins (to commit adultery, to steel, to lie, to cheat, to insult people, to gossip, etc.);






source 2

Islam sets down clear guidelines as to when war is ethically right and how such a war should be conducted.

War is decreed in Islam in self defense to defend Islam (rather than to spread it); Islam also allows war if an Islamic state comes under attack, or if another state is oppressing its own Muslims.

This indicates that war in Islam is only a mean to ward off aggression and not a mean to impose Islam as a religion; as some may claim. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says:

“To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily God is most powerful for their aid.” Qur’an (22:39)

Also the Holly Qur'an has stressed the fact that war is launched only to fight for noble motives without seeking any earthly reward: Allah says:

"Those who readily fight in the cause of God are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of God, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense." Qur'an (4:74)

War in Islam should be conducted in a disciplined way according to the principles of Allah’s justice; so as to avoid injuring non-combatants with the minimum necessary force without anger and with humane treatments towards prisoners of war because Islam is in favor of peace and against violence.

The instructions of Islam are to be observed in war and in peace times. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops.





source 3
1-Personal Behavior of the Troops:

In war, as it is in peace, the instructions of Islam are to be observed. Worship does not cease in war. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: “Beware of the prayer of the oppressed; for there is no barrier between it and Allah.” Here, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, differentiates between the oppressed believers and non-believers.

2-Whom to Fight:

Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops, and not to non- fighting personnel, and this is in compliance with the Qur’anic verse that reads: “ Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.” (Al-Baqarah: 190)

In one of the battles, a woman was found killed, and this was denounced by the Prophet saying "She did not fight" This will be further detailed under the instructions given to the armies and their commanding chiefs by the Prophet and his Caliphs.

3-The Prophet's instructions to Commanding Chiefs:

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to instruct his commanding chiefs saying: “Fight in the cause of Allah. Fight those who deny Allah; Do not be embittered. Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children or those (people) in convents.”



also please feel free to back your statements with evidence



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by BO XIAN
My Muslim roommate disagrees with you wholesale.


does your so called muslim room mate come from a long line of religous leaders like my self. my dad was a hafiz, his brother, his father, his fathers father and so on?


Originally posted by BO XIAN
He's Moroccan and, as thousands are, descended from Mohammed.


oh please just becuase hes moroccan doesnt make him any better or have any more knowlidge then any other muslim




Originally posted by BO XIAN
You may be Muslim. I do not accept your perspective as 100% accurate about all things Muslim.


good for you

indulge in your blissfull ignorance



Originally posted by BO XIAN
Sunis murder Shias, and vice versa, after all. And NOT because of agreement! Sheesh.


thats been way out of perportion, shi and sunni attacks only occur in a hand full of countries



Originally posted by BO XIAN
Sounds to me like some research COULD still be of benefit. Then again, one would have to have an open mind to the facts of history, society, sociology etc.


trust me i have
i have researched alot about my fait when i joined ats just so i could debate people like your self and have ammo to use (ammo as in sources)



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 06:03 PM
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Do I see a Head 2 Head debate in the future here?



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 06:09 PM
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Thing that puzzles me is the people who deny that this is what Muslims would do.

I mean it is recent that a new support group has been set up in the UK for muslim women who live in fear of being killed as a honour killing by their own father and/or brothers.

Why was this support group set up? Well its quite easy really its because British Muslim women HAVE been murdered by the own family as a honour killing for purley putting the family in a bad light by not following their beliefs correctly. Just so the men can hold their heads up high in the community

With this in mind then i can sure as hell believe that 30 Muslim men would gang rape a non believer. If they can do this to their own daughters then imagine a Christian who who wont accept their beliefs



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 06:11 PM
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That's not particularly my sort of thing.

I'll likely email my roommate and see if he wants to take this on. He has a family now and lives in the midwest.

He's also researched Islam extensively.

And, the above points made by the Muslim have been countered extensively by other Muslims in the faith still as well as those who've left the faith.

It gets wearyhing to go tit for tat over and over.

Sometimes I merely like to toss out some counter views that have substance and background, support . . . even if folks foolishly think it's my own unsupported opinion.

Folks who TRULY SEEK TRUTH will ferret out the whole spectrum of facts for themselves.

Personally, I find the contentions by the Muslim above to be wholesale uninformed from someone who asserts that they are exceedingly exceptionally well informed. I'm not impressed.

But, they are welcome to . . . abide in their lack of information I consider minimal, old hat and extensively substantiated. I feel no compulsion to do research for them that they evidently missed in their "extensive research."






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