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On The Topic of Hoaxes and Adamant Belief

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posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:02 PM
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The arrival of summer brings a certain, negative, constant to the pages of ATS: The hoax. The hoax is most often found within the pages of the ‘Aliens & UFOs’ sub forum and it is for that reason that I am posting this here.

This type of thread is sometimes met with little more then grins and a swift closing. However, on many occasions, the hoax is met with a great many pages of discussion and debate. The curious and cautious are often flooded out by the adamant believer and the hard shelled disbeliever. It is the adamant believer that I wish to focus on within this thread.

The adamant believers: unashamed and often unbearably outspoken. No matter how obviously ridiculous the OPs claim may be, there will almost always be a hand full of those who stop by and let it be known that, ‘for what it’s worth, [they] believe this guy’. This type of blind belief is as predictable as the hoaxers themselves.

What is my point exactly? To attempt to put it briefly: My point is that there are a two forces within the UFO community which are doing little more then tearing its already shaky credibility to shreds. These two forces are the hoaxers and those who blindly swallow whatever it is that the hoaxer is offering to them.

It is not the hoaxer who does the most damage to the community. Rather, it is that startlingly large number of individuals caught up in the maelstrom; those who will take unqualified, absurd and illogical evidence as truth at first glance.

I am not expressing anger, but rather, I am expressing frustration at the situation. The hoaxer is an easy solution: Flush them out and make them known. However, the adamant believer is quite another issue. You can not be angry at them for believing so recklessly…but at the same time they are doing just as much, if not more, than the hoaxer in the destruction of any credibility the UFO community may have.

Bah, just needed to vent I suppose.




posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:11 PM
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I have only been here a few weeks and i've read some of the most absurd nonsense ever. GR's thread, Poaky Oats, the world coming to an end because its rained too much.

If anything it is only hampering the REAL investgation and discussion on more serious topics like anomalies on the moon, Nasa video footage all of which is hard evidence but i wouldn't say proof..

But then again, we have to face the reality that a forum like this is asking for it! And it is a place where John Titor's will hang out.

I think people who make these ridiculous claims should have there thread investigated by the mods and frozen until they accept there is a serious topic that needs to be discussed.

If we want the average skeptic to support us then these stupid claims need to be controlled or we will forever be laughed at.



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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It is true that latlely there has been a large amount of Hoaxers on this site, but there will always be hoaxers, but in the past when you came upon a hoax, you knew it, but read it and enjoyed the good fiction



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by LethalDose
If we want the average skeptic to support us then these stupid claims need to be controlled or we will forever be laughed at.


I see your point and thank you for your contribution. However I do believe that, while the hoaxes may hurt the UFO community somewhat...the adamant believer hurts it more so.

An outside observer can look in, see a hoax and recognize that it is a few individuals either taking advantage of or poking fun at the community. When that same outside observer sees many indiviuals blindly accepting what it is the hoaxer is feeding them...well then they see the community as vulnerable and gullible.

It is this 'within the community' aspect of the adamant believer which makes them more of a detriment to the UFO community than the hoaxer could.



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:29 PM
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Yes i will admit i did enjoy GR's thread it was quite funny and somewhat entertaining, i knew from the beginning it was a hoax. Maybe he should start writing a new television series or something.

Anyway But Like i said in another thread and im sure the majority will agree that there are alot of vulnerable and easily led people here that need to be directed down the right path.



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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I am a believer and I will not apologize to anyone for it. I do not base my beliefs on the Roswell story, John Lear's moon thread, or Stanton Friedman's appearances on Coast to Coast Am. My belief is based on a lifetime of UFO experiences that began in the early sixties as the sky above Las Vegas Nevada turned into daylight while my brothers and I were camping overnight in the backyard and the experiences continued in Okinawa in the mid sixties, then around Great Falls Montana in the late sixties, then in Southern Michigan in the seventies and Colorado in the eighties and finally on to Arizona in the nineties and 2000's. I have seen the actual Phoenix lights and I have seen hoaxers using flares trying to reproduce them. I have also seen other Arizona UFO's that have received no publicity. I am really tired of the rolled eyes and snide smirks that people give you when you tell them you have seen UFO's.

The color tags were working in the preview, but somehow they are not working in the post.


[edit on 7-2-2007 by groingrinder]



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 08:47 PM
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I think, from an intelligent readers point of view a
hoax stands out.

An old saying goes, If it seems too good to be true,
it probably is.

Now, should that shut down an investigation ?
Not at all. That would be counter-productive to what
ATS is about.

Should people claim hoax, right off the bat ? I do.
Emphatically.

Why ? See above.

I have yet, in all my years looking into these things been
shown anything PROVEN to be alien, or derived from
alien technology.

When some anonymous poster provides incredible pictures,
my BS alarm rings loudly.

As far as UFO's, I'll happily admit that they are real.

It's when we get sagas like Serpo, GR and now, Isaac that
send my alarms off the hook.

I still think research should be done, into how and why these
hoaxes are perpetrated.

BUT, people should also be allowed to, at the onset, be allowed
to call hoax. Because, hoax they are.

My fellow ATS'ers, think of me what you will, but I speak my
mind, and my heart. I'll not be less that honest on this forum.

Regards,
Lex



posted on Jul, 2 2007 @ 09:07 PM
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Lex, folks like you are why those who have actually seen something do not come forward with the story. You bring nothing to the understanding of what is actually going on.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by LethalDose
Yes i will admit i did enjoy GR's thread it was quite funny and somewhat entertaining, i knew from the beginning it was a hoax.


Of course you did and that's 'cause you're so smart. I'm not opposing your point of view, but I do find it frustrating when people simply say, "It's a hoax." and believe that somehow contributes to the discussion. Unless you list your reasons why it stands as just another irritating statement. Ideally it would be nice to have both sides do a little investigation into why a hoax is one, or not. For example, perhaps you have a bit of knowledge in a small area that tells you this is a hoax. Perhaps you recognize a place or know a tidbit of knowledge or are an expert in a language or a profession that is under discussion--it could be anything--that allows you to CONTRIBUTE to the discussion by pointing it out. Perhaps you could offer a way of testing statements or perhaps you recognize that this story sounds very much like one told in 1956 by someone else that bears on the discussion.

This last point is particularly an issue with me. People don't seem to be familiar with the UFO literature. Oh, they have opinions all right, and they may know about this guy named Truman Bethurum, or at least recognize they've heard the name somewhere. They may have heard something about Clarion, but that's it. They don't really have a solid grounding in the subject they are pontificating about. In this realm, anyone can play. There are no qualifications for entry. That's one reason Ufology is in such a dismal state. Any Tom, Doc, or Harry can show up and say, "I are a expert." and people will rejoice. (Think Dan Burisch.)


Anyway But...im sure the majority will agree that there are alot of vulnerable and easily led people here that need to be directed down the right path.


That scares me. Are we to follow your red flags down the 'right' path to Enlightenment? I'm not sure you have demonstrated any particular knowledge that would qualify you to direct vulnerable people anywhere. You just got here. Quite obviously, you are still learning 'how to behave' on ATS, yet you continue to display a superior attitude. If you (and I mean you-all) contribute in a meaningful way to the issues raised here, people will come to know and respect what you say. But saying "It's a hoax" and smiling in a supercilious way doesn't really cut it.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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Hoaxers just want attention, and the internet is a great place to get attention. Just imagine you're a hoaxer-

You read a reply saying that someone believes you and has had similiar experiences. Great, you caught one. You read a post with someone sayign you're a hoax. Great, you managed to upset that guy.

It's even funnier if you get the two parties to argue.

Hell, a hoaxers mission is complete if he convinces a very intellgient person to waste their time debunking their hoax with photo analysis and such. So the only way to "stop" hoaxes would be to shut down the forum, and that's counter-productive.

The hoaxer "wins" if you even click on his thread. So just ignore them and move along. If it's obviosuly a fake, the people that were going to believe it before are still going to believe it after you post "it's a hoax."



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 01:07 PM
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schuylar, You beat me to it. I too am worried when self appointed "directors" show up. LethalDose, since you know everything, usually with no proof to back it up, what is the "right" way to handle hoaxers?

The system in place now, peer review, seems to be working, though not perfectly.

OP, if people only drop in long enough to see the hoaxers and their groupies, and cannot see the skeptics and the believers that want proof, then are these people we're worried about impressing? If a new viewer is so shallow that they cannot see how hard facts are debated on these boards, then they are too shallow to be good for us or against us.

And Lexion, you can't fool me. You're a closet believer. You return to these threads over and over. You just want proof. I'll bet you have a tattoo that says "Where's the Beef?" And in that respect, you and I share common ground, for I too want proof.

I have personally witnessed UFOs. But I make no claims because I have no PROOF. Nor do I believe in the stories of others just because I have these past experiences. I remain open minded. That way, I can reach a decision on a case by case basis.

But the solid, "I want to be FIRST to call it a hoax" skeptic is no better than the "I'll believe anything out there" true believer. Both of these types have closed minds.

The true believer has closed off to the idea that there are hoaxes and mistakes in this world simply because they emotionally need something to transform their world view and validate their imagination.

Likewise the kneejerk skeptic has a need to bet with the house because he has an unhealthy fear of being wrong, and his low self esteem is bolstered by how he can point with pride to the speed with which his mighty intellect caught the big bad hoax.

Both such annoyances are the ban of research, but in an open venue, they are the ants at our picnic. And there is no good bug repellent.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 01:44 PM
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spines, welcome to the ufo sub-culture

I mean no offense to anyone here at all but you wont stop the adament believers- they believe with religous like fervour. I think some deep down know most of its BS but they want to live in a world with aliens, they want to believe greer can vector in ufos- if he gives them a good "show" theyre happy. Maybe they do jobs 9-5 every week its like an escape/alternate reality.

The ufologists know their audience well and play to the crowd. Its a big circus everyone plays along- the ufologists get their money and the believers get their fantasies fullfilled. Thats what i see the ufo sub culture as.

Then you have the people who are looking for the truth. People who would love to have ET visiting us but want proof. when the crazy hoaxers come along you just have to enjoy the show


[edit on 3-7-2007 by yeti101]



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 01:57 PM
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yeti101, I woudl agree. IMO the people that seem to produce the msot useful informationa bout UFOs are those who aren't a part of the "UFOs are alien brothers" subculture. Once people start ignoring the Unidentified part of the name and decide they have the answer, they stop providing useful info. They just say "This is the way it is, I don't need any more proof." That's great for them, but it's a belief, not a provable fact.



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by groingrinder

Lex, folks like you are why those who have actually seen something do not come forward with the story. You bring nothing to the understanding of what is actually going on.


I disagree.

Those that have see something (as I have) are more than
welcome to present their story, and have people such as
my-self review and critique it.

Such is the nature of ATS.

And, I think I bring quite a bit of understanding to what
is actually going on.
In the last 20 odd years, I've seen hoaxes, and true UFO's.
This is why I'm a skeptic now, when once, I was a believer.

Every single time something so detailed has come about,
it has been proven a hoax. ( I know, here come the Roswell,
MJ-12, Meier etc. believers to chastise me)

The pictures, video and stories (Yes, stories DO count in my
book, if related correctly) to me are much more truthful,
if they are honestly portrayed and flawed.
When a person relates his/her sighting with information
given in a timely fashion with as much detail as possible.

Originally posted by NGC2736

And Lexion, you can't fool me. You're a closet believer. You return to these threads over and over. You just want proof.


Actually, I used to be a believer, before I took my blinders off
and started actually LOOKING at what was being presented.

And yes, I do want proof. I guess we are alike, in that aspect.

Regards,
Lex



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
In this realm, anyone can play. There are no qualifications for entry. That's one reason Ufology is in such a dismal state. Any Tom, Doc, or Harry can show up and say, "I are a expert." and people will rejoice. (Think Dan Burisch.)

Ok so you obviously think Dan is not legit.. that he lied about being abducted at an early age, which resulted in his peculiar experiences and life path.

It's just so easy for people, self-righteous people, to come on and have a crack at Dan like that. To spout on about they-know-this and that, and then casually disregard the testimony of someone whose stories don't quite fit with their belief system, or their expectations of what Ufology should be at. Therefore, anyone with a wack-job / cuckoo story to tell is chucked aside and you spend the rest of your life muttering about lights in the sky and that you are a 'serious investigator'.

See, this is where I think Ufology went wrong. They suddenly realised that there is more to this ET business than the human mind can easily rationalise - so much of this phenomena is totally irrational and doesn't 'fit' with the way we perceive the way life works. We have guys like Dan come on and say his memories and intellect were 'swapped' at the time of his abduction with another fellow. Crazy of course. No one is going to take that serious for a start.

Then we have Dan saying yes we are on different timelines, and that (some) ET are actually human descendants coming from the future. That communication is done telepathically. We have guys like Stephen Greer getting rapped over the knuckles here for employing techniques perceived as 'New Age Wackjob' (vectoring in ufos, meditation) whereas we know that *this* is the way it's done - it's reality. David Icke speaks of the dimensions we can't perceive because it resonates at a different frequency - we all resonate at different frequencies - this is how reality is constructed - and that science is barely touching on this - how on Earth are the antiquated 'UFO Hunters' in ufology supposed to cope with these far-out concepts? They can't, so they disregard them. They talk about 'misleading the gullible' or 'in it for the money'. That's what happens when the truth starts to hit - that when we slowly start to get to grips with what we are dealing with - that many of the old guard struggle to comprehend the paradigm shift required to understand what the heck is going on out there.

I don't see it in a dismal state at all. I believe we are on the cusp of a mass awakening. More and more of my friends are open about these possibilities and openly talk about it in the workplace. Same with regards to ghosts and related paranormal phenomena. Thanks to the internet and the sharing of knowledge, yes, ANYONE CAN BE AN EXPERT. And that's a good thing. I'd rather trust the intuition of the people and community around me than some self-proclaimed Ufology Expert who's claimed to read books on this and that. Those books are no less bunk than Dan Burisch getting in front of a camera on the Project Camelot website and sharing his experiences. All of it could be fiction. Books aren't necessarily more valid or truthful by any means.

All of us have agendas after all.

[edit on 3-7-2007 by RiotComing]



posted on Jul, 3 2007 @ 09:33 PM
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Just to paraphrase, we are over our heads. Ufology can't cope with the reality of who these beings are, where they come from, the technologies they utilise.. the best Ufology can rationise is "ok we saw a light in the sky". Now the truth is coming to light, it's become a hot potato traditional ufologists cannot handle.

What if David Icke / Sitchin is correct, that Reptilians came from Mars around 450,000 years ago to mine gold in Africa? Or that according to Dan Burisich / Henry Deacon, that our multiple timelines have put us in a collision course for trouble? Y'know? This is suddenly more of a big deal than "ok something crashed at Roswell". What if those Roswell inhabitants were us from the future, from a different timeline? It's a serious consideration these days. You can't just close your eyes, cover your ears and go lalalalalalala! We have to open ourselves up to these possibilities. This is where ufology has to head if we are to finally understand ourselves and our place in the universe. It's a huge paradigm shift required.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 07:03 AM
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RiotComing,

I really enjoyed your posts. They speak well of the 'going ons' of the UFO community. There is change all around and to some that is a hostile action which must be stopped.

However, it is with your posting that I wish to re-explain my point made in the original post:

I am not saying that belief in 'out-there' theories is a bad thing. I am not saying that every new idea brought forward is a hoax outright. I am saying that belief in any theory (mundane to the extreme) should and must be obtained through a rationalized thinking.

This is not to say that rationalized thinking can not lead you to believe in an 'out-there' theory. I am simply saying that if belief is to be expressed...it should be nurtured and thought deeply on.

Adamant belief is a bad thing because it is presented in a way which appears nonrational, rambling and in most cases a bit paranoid. Well thought out belief may be disagreed with but it, if presented in a way which shows the time and thought given to it, can not be simply thrown to the side as 'another tinfoil hat'.

And yes, this apply's to other areas as well...not just UFOs. There are plenty of 'out-there' theories which are given serious thought and discussion because they are presented intelligently; they are the products of much time, research and thought.



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 07:36 AM
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i cant seem to post a new thread (at work maybe my pc) but heres a new article on BBC website about UFOs- thought you might be interested

news.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 08:18 AM
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Hoaxes are a part of the game, probably always will be. Some people simply like to have loads of "fun" at the expense of others passionate beliefs. They are like the other half of taking in a breath. Over time I am learning to not worry so much about trying to convince others of a hoax or not - I think it is much more important to simply convince myself any particular event is real or not. Why should I get all tore up about what others think or not. This should be first and foremost a personal experience and shouldnt be influenced by the banter of others. I say believe what you want to believe (if belief is what you need) and motor on with it. It yours and dont try to make it someone elses (pipedream).

I am getting to the point where I enjoy simply sitting back and watching the melee ensue. If the truth ever does come out we probably wont know it until it hits us in the head, come at us sideways while we are all here yapping at each other over incorrect typeset fonts, junk floating in space, cult leaders and blurry whatevers in crappy pictures. Whatever the truth is, it wont be anything we can easily imagine I would say. The truth has always been far stranger than anything I could imagine most of the time.

As far adamant believers go, every society and cause has its cow eyed zealots. Some people seem to take on as some sort of personal mission, along with others who think this way, to convince others that what they think/believe is the ultimate in truth, facts be damned. Drop a nickel in their baskets and keep on moving, keep following your own path. Dont get distracted from your search by by the screamers at the edge of the road. You will naturally gravitate towards likeminded people and be comfortable there.

I neither respect or take seriously the adamant believers nor the unrelenting skeptic/debunkers. How can anyone take seriously the rantings of an anonymous person who insists on walking through life with blinders on?

And I agree with RiotComing, no matter what your position may be, we are definately in over our heads - we usually are. That is what initiates growth in thinking.



[edit on 4-7-2007 by Lost_Mind]



posted on Jul, 4 2007 @ 09:16 AM
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The best anyone can do is use discernment. If a guy is calling something a hoax see if he usually does. If he does then he probably never believes. If there is a new member posting a sighting or big story you have to be more skeptical than other times. If i read a particular member that is supportive at times and also skeptical i will continue reading what they say.

Its easy, some skeptics are always skeptical those people you can skip unless you too are a die hard skeptic and like reading like minds.

If you are a trusting and believe anything is possible then you should read posts from people who are a happy median of skeptical and trusting.

This is just me but i can smell a rat in a thread. The important thing is that there is a free exchange of ideas and that those who have the consciousness to see the truth are allowed to explore the facts.



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