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Constitutional Rights for Citizens: Police Contact

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posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Of course if a cop says to get out of the car, get out! That is legal. However, a person cannot be convicted ( or rather SHOULD NOT ) for refusing an officers orders if the order was not legal. See? In other words, if a cop gives an order that is not allowed under the law, then you cannot be held liable. For example, let us say that you are walking down a street minding your own business. A cop sees you and for some reason, not related to any crime or suspicion of a particular offense, just fishing like they do...just stops you and asks for ID.

Since you are not suspected of any crime and the officer is not conducting any viable investigation, you are NOT required to present ID under the law. Should you refuse, the officer CANNOT charge you with ' failure to follow orders ' since the order was not legally enforceable or valid. Since there is no law demanding that we carry ID and present it without cause at any time, like in fascist regimes, the cop's CANNOT simply say " Hey, let's make the ' refusing to follow order ' law apply to this! NO WAY. Not legal. Suppose the cop doesn't like your attitude and tells you to turn around and walk out of town and leave. This is another illegal order and not ' refusing to obey an order ' in any way.

The orders that cops can give and expect to be followed under penalty of law are only those that fall under the limitations set forth in the Federal statutes; they override state law in matters of civil rights. So if a cop tells you to stand on your head and you refuse, he cannot get away with a charge of ' refusing to obey orders ", etc. We are NOT in the military and the cops do NOT have ther right to order us around ; we must follow legal directives and they are very limited and for good reason.

For sure, obey all orders that pertain to officer safety and custody, like I said before. The cops can make sure that they are safe, and that can mean seeing the hands of all passengers, asking all passengers to exit the vehicle, etc. Terry searches are allowed under almost all confrontational circumstances also. But ANY other order, like " Open your trunk " or " tell me where you just came from " are totally bogus and not worthy of answering. You CANNOT be convicted of a ' refusing ' charge for refusing unlawful orders, simple.

Actually, when cop's give these ' orders ' they are not really orders at all, they are requests masked in threatening and presumptive language so that you feel like you have no choice. Remember, the cops are ALLOWED TO LIE to us, boldly, totally, without regard for the truth , so in light of that fact, ONLY DIRECTIONS PERTAINING TO OFFICER SAFETY AND CUSTODY can be considered ' orders' at all. All other statements, requests, orders, etc., are really only 'requests ' for voluntary consent by you to give up your rights. In other words, they SAY it is an order, they ACT like it's an order , but in reality it is only a bluff, a request , as they have no legal right to exepct compliance due to individual rights and preferences.

Knowing that, obey all 'orders ' that pertain to cop safety and your custody , and REFUSE to follow anything else , like searches and information, etc. Stand firm and ALWAYS file a complaint with the cop's department and other agencies, and consider suing, anytime that your rights are violated. That is the only way to get pressure on the cop's to follow the law and your wishes that your rights be observed.

More soon.




posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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In a perfect world you would be correct in this assumption. Unfortunately, as the law states, once an officer identifies themselves to you, they can request you to provide identification even under the terms that you have described. All they have to do is in the court is to testify that they were on patrol, a stakeout, or that you were acting suspiciously. Any and all of the above reasons are enough to satisfy the basic requirements of the law. The wording of the Michigan "Failure to Obey" law is similarly worded in most of the US. You may want to check out if there is such a law where you live as well as the exact wording of the law.
I myself am extremely distrustful of "peace" officers, and on a number of occasions I have taken them to task on their actions (or lack thereof).



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 01:39 PM
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WRONG!! Maybe you have not spent much time in courtrooms or with attorneys, but here is a likely scenario instead of what you propose:

The defense attorney asks these questions, and the cop is under oath ( big deal ) and at least has to sound credible to get the judge to go alonm, right? OK. See how the cop can get around this:

1. What was my client doing besides walking down the street that you found so ' suspicious'?

2. Did you receive a radio report or other onformation based on a reliable informant that my client had, was going to, or was engaged in any illegal activity whatsoever?

3. What was the real reason you stopped Mr. Jones if you had no reports and he was not acting in a susp

icious manner?

4. Can you recite for the Court the statute that demands that people must cary ID and present it at all times and circumstances when confronted buy police?

5. Are you aware, Officer, that it is perfectly legal to walk down a public street and to refuse to identify ones self unless a reasonable belief exists that criminal suspicion is warranted?

6. Officer, EXACTLY WHAT reasonable grounds did you have, and from what source, to believe that Mr. Jones was in fact a susspect or deserved to be approached to safeguard society?

Of course, I could do a hundred more. The fact is this: as soon as it became apparent that it was a sham, the Prosecutor would ask to dismiss so the courts time would not be wasted, or the judge would indicate that the defense attorney should make a motion to dismiss or for a directed verdict of innocent to end the matter. That way, the cop is saved further embarrassment and the court docket moves along.

That is why an attorney is a NECESSITY in all criminal matters no matter what. Only they can frame the objections and motions in ways that will have substance.

If your point is that cops can and do lie, of course they do. That is why it is doubly critical that you follow the rules and give the attorney all the ammo he needs. Judges are not stupid and most are unwilling to have an obviously bad decision they make appealed up the line because it makes them look foolish to their superiors judges, who expect these matters to be disposed of at a lower level when obviously defective and on the edges of violating citizen rights.

I am NOT suggesting that people refuse to show ID; I was using that as an example about legitimate orders from cops. Showing an ID is always a good idea simply because most judges will not see that as a big violation of rights even if technically not legal. Better to protest real rights violations and not quibble over that issue. Show your ID and shut up. That is the best advice if confronted by cops that play fast and loose with the laws; of course that is most so do all you can to halp make your case viable long before it ever comes to that; you will be glad you did.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 01:54 PM
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Kenshiro:

It does not matter what the state law says; all state laws are subservient to the federal law, and federal law says that no person is required to possess or carry ID, and no law says that it must be shown under any and all circumstances when a cop demands it ; unless there is ' reasonable grounds ' to believe that the person is worthy of suspicion then the stop is unlawful.

If it were your way, the cops could just stroll down any street and stop any number of citizens and make them all line up and produce ID, right? If not, then they cannot make ONE person do it, legally.

Also, you are mistaken that ' being on patrol ' is a valid excuse for demanding ID..nonsense. Unless the cops have AN ATICULABLE SUSPICION that a person is deserving of governemnt scrutiny, then the cop has NO RIGHT to demand ID, plain and simple. State laws mean nothing when a federal court issues a decision, at least in that district if not nationwide depending on appeals, etc. the final decision of a federal court, not on appeal, is the final word in the law across the nation.

Cops cannot legally demand ID unless they can ARTICULATE or intelligently state the reason for their suspicion, and it must be genuine enough to pass muster. But like I said, better to pick your battles and give up the ID and concentrate on more serious violations of rights; they are easy enough to find, sadly.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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actually there is a fderal law that covers this and even the ACLU recognizes it.

Failure to obey a police officer may result in arrest under one of the following criminal offenses: Disorderly Conduct (RCW 9A.84.030) Failure to Disperse (RCW 9A.8A4.020) Resisting Arrest (RCW 9A.76.040) Interference, obstruction of any court, building, or residence (RCW 9.27.015) Trespass (RCW 9A.52.070; RCW 9A.52.080) Disturbing school, school activities, or meetings (RCW 28A.87.060)

That is from the ACLU's website.
ACLU and the Failure to Obey and Freedom of Speech



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:24 PM
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Also, Ken, did you not read my post above? It details the fact that " Failure to Obey laws mean NOTHING unless the order given is a LEGAL one, understand? It MUST be a legal order to qualify for violation of it. And an order to show ID or identify ones self is NOT legal unless the officer has some ARTICULABLE suspicion, comprende?

That is FEDERAL law, all across the land. Michigan nor any other state can pass a law that attempts to supercede federal law. Failure to obey laws are only meant to cover situations where the police have a bonfide and legal need for the information , and that need CAN NOT be just that they felt like it. NO WAY. If the cop cannot state what suspicion he had, one that a reasonable person could conclude was in keeping with the federal civil rights laws, then has NO GROUNDS for stopping you or asking for ID.

If the stop is not authorized, than all subsequent actions are also not authorized from that point on. The cops cannot legally ask for a person to identify himself if there was no reasonable grounds for the stop to begin with; it is important that you understand that point. And the cop MUST have SOME reasonable suspicion; merely walking down a public street is NOT grounds by any stretch of the imagination, even to a cop who disregards the law in his pursuit of arrests.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:36 PM
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Ken..c'mon, at least be accurate:The external source you quote is NOT FEDERAL LAW as you stated; it is the Washington State code, not the Federal Code. The article covered the ACLU's efforts at educating demonstrators for events, hardly appropriate for the issue, would'nt you say?

Also, you have not refuted one thing I have said with the statutes or court decisions. You have made blanket statements that are incorrect and not in line with the law. You have misidentified statute origins, and still persist despite no evidence that I am wrong. I am not wrong, I am right and can prove it, but I want people to start doing some research and see for themselves exactly what the ruling decisions say. THAT is where my info come from.

Cops MUST have a real reason to stop you. Cops MUST have some valid reason to ask for identity (NOT identification, no law demands carrying of papers, anywhere) and you cannot show me , Ken one case where that is not the standard. Until then , please do some research and find some case law that prives me wrong or accept that the cops do not have unlimited authority in this matter. I assert that I am materially correct and that you are mistaken. Please prove me wrong or relent, that is the only intellectually honest thing to do.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:55 PM
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eyewitness86,
good luck to you!
If you wish to attempt to prove or disprove what I have given you, more power to you. I do hope that you have a great lawyer and lots of cash to back you up.
Also, please read the ACLU site once more. you may notice that although it was in Washington, they are QUOTING federal and not state laws.
The state laws that govern the failure to obey only strengthen what the federal goverment has in place, they are not circumventing federal or constitutional law.

As for my refuting what you have said, I do beleive that you need to re-read my posts, all a police officer has to say to require that you provide identification is to say that, you looked / acted suspiciously, they were on a stake out, anything that would make you stand out to them even profiling! You have told a number of people here that you do not have to obey an officer. That is clearly incorrect. If an officer orders you to do something ilegal, then yes, you can disobey. If you ignore what a police officer tells you then it will be you who will be sitting in jail or paying the fines.
Enuf.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:16 PM
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Failure to obey a police officer may result in arrest under one of the following criminal offenses: Disorderly Conduct (RCW 9A.84.030) Failure to Disperse (RCW 9A.8A4.020) Resisting Arrest (RCW 9A.76.040) Interference, obstruction of any court, building, or residence (RCW 9.27.015) Trespass (RCW 9A.52.070; RCW 9A.52.080) Disturbing school, school activities, or meetings (RCW 28A.87.060)

Formatting is mine.
I don't know anything, but in reading this, doesn't the bold/underlined section mean that you only get arrested for failing to obey a police officer in those circumstances?



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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You keep making the same false premise and it is getting tiresome: When you say that " all a police officer has to do is say that ...", what you are really saying is that you believe that a defense attorney is just going to stand there and not find out WHY the officer felt suspicious? Just saying it is fine for making an arrest, but too many false arrests and not only is it very apparent to everyone in the system, from Court personnel to Judges to attorneys, even some few fellow cops get nervous around partners that lie too often to make arrests based on a lie.

Sure, a cop can say anything he wants, right then. But later he has to answer for what he has done and when cops arrest the wrong guy and get a good lawyer on it, there can be real trouble for the higher ups and insurance payouts and issues that go far beyond the street where the innocent citizen is taking a stroll and expecting to be left alone as long as he causes no trouble. Too much to ask? that is what the law is for, to keep us free, not to make us MORE subject to unneeded scrutiny from the police.

You make no effective counter arguments, you provide no new data, you wish me luck and quibble about side issues but the fact of the matter is this, and undisputed by fact: Any position that suggests giving up ANY right is one that is open to giving up ALL rights. Why cannot you see that it is not unreasonable or radical to expect the police to act like professionals, and strictly adhere to the letter of the law the same way that they expect us to? What is so wrong about that? Can you tell me?

If a doctor acted emotionally and fudged the rules and treated you with less than full professional competence, you would be appalled, would you not? If your auto mechanic decided that he didn't like your attitude, or a bumper sticker, and left out a part that would cost you later, would you say that it was OK because he has to fix the cars of some real jerks sometimes? A Supreme Court justice once said that ' Police officers must have thick skins and not sensitive to the words of those he deals with '. It is not a quote but close. Cops , in order to be respected, MUST act PROFESSIONALLY , and that means that they MUST obey the law and not lie and fudge and find ways to violate our rights; they must value our rights or they are clearly not our friends.

If we allow lesser standards for cops than any other ' professional ', we are begging for abuse and the attitude we see in comments like some here. To defend a cop that would lie to arrest you is the hallmark of the dog licking the boot that just delivered a kick...the Master you serve is not the one that I do, my friend. That is for sure. Do what you wish; you have not shown, again, any case law that refutes my advice so from now on I will concentrate on more help for others and answering questions.

And thanks for wishing me luck. but I really do not need it, I have the facts on my side. Best of luck to YOU.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 06:09 PM
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Last one I promise!! I just read your post again and saw that nonsense about telling people not to obey cops:

I NEVER said that. Ever. I did NOT say " don't obey cops ". It is a bigger issue. You cannot quote me as saying that. You have made a false accusation and if you do not retract it you shall be deemed unworthy of any future response as your character will have been proven insufficient for further respect by me. It is a two part issue: Legal and illegal orders. Got that?

No citizen has to obey unlawful orders. A citizen can and should refuse to obey unlawful orders. If they do not, they are no friend to the Constitution or the rule of law. Let me say it so anyone can understand it:

If a cop gives you an order, and it is not a legal order, you are not required to obey. If a cop tells you to get down and shine his shoes, you do not have to obey. OK?

You seem to be saying that anything that a cop tells you to do, you must do and just file a complaint later if it doesn't suit you, right? Is that what you are saying? If so you have absolutely no understanding of the law at all. ONLY LAWFUL ORDERS must be followed. If a cop says " Open your trunk for me ", that is an unlawful order and you can refuse.

If a cop says " I don't need a reason to ask you for ID ', that is a lie. If a cop says ANYTHING other than comments directing you physically, such as custody orders , they may be ignored legally. Yes, you can refuse to obey the police, but ONLY if they are clearly giving you an UNLAWFUL ORDER, OK? THAT is what I am saying, not " disobey the cops " like you tried to imply by your misstating of my comments.

Obey all lawful orders. refuse to obey unlawful orders. Always obey ANY orders that impact safety or custody. Never give a cop any reason to think you are resisting. Cooperate fully and let the lawyers do the fighting. Never give up and NEVER GIVE IN.



posted on Jul, 14 2007 @ 01:00 PM
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Now we come to some issues that have been raised elsewhere on this site that are important and need to be addressed before we go on to more topics.

There seems to be a presumption by the police that if a citizen requests that their Constitutional Rights be observed it is regarded as a belligerant and aggressive gesture on the part of the citizen. Cop's in general take offense at a citizen asserting their Rights, because it points out quite clearly the FACT that the cop's will NOT advise the citizen of their Rights, nor will the cop's hesitate to ask that the citizen GIVE UP their precious Rights. Why would a cop want a US citizen to throw away their Rights ? These Rights were fought for to the death by millions of loyal Americans so that we might USE them and enjoy the protections that they afford; instead, we see a public almost totally unaware of their Rights but also too timid to assert them.

The fact is that if we do not USE our Rights , we will lose them, no doubt. History tells us that Rights, once given, are NEVER again given back again.So it is encumbent on all of us to know and use our Rights in order to preserve them and keep them relevant for future generations, agreed?

But the cop's hate it when they hear those words" I do NOT give consent to any searches " or " NO, you cannot enter without a warrant ". It gets in the way of their total power and control. Cop's have a dream : a society where no warrants are needed, no subpoenas necessary, no Rights to give respect to, just ultimate authority. Most cop's are control freaks at home as well as on the streets; psychological studies have shown correlations between dominant personality types and police recruit tests of same.

They are by nature aggressive, bold and overbearing people , generally speaking , and with the tools of flexible interpretations of the law and some high tech weaponry, they can get great fulfillment from acting out their most intimate desires of control and violence and get paid for doing it!! These types usually have a very short fuse and will lash out with excessive force if challenged in a way that makes them feel less than in total control of the situation; they MUST be in total control or they feel like they have NO control, see? So no wonder we see the massive numbers of reports and evidence of police misconduct and brutal beatings, etc.

Video tape being so prevalent has shown a small part of the NORMAL amount of force and aggression used by cop's today as acceptable behavior to them. It is scary and shocking to see swarms of cop's flailing nightsticks and Tazering people laying on the ground screaming. If it does not turn your stomach them maybe you are one of them, and not one of us, the People. Remember the cop's out west who tortured some demonstrators with tear gas? The kids were chained together and instead of cutting the chaines and hauling them away, the cop's, our protectors, our servants, took swabs and soaked them in pepper spray and then forcefully HELD OPEN THE EYELIDS OF THE KIDS AND SWABBED PEPPER CHEMICAL INTO THEIR OPEN EYES, while the people screamed and cryed. It made any civilized person enraged and had I been there I would not have been able to restrain myself from attacking the cop's to put a halt to it. that sickens any moral person. No question.

But those filthy, demented pig's smiled and waved and had a good laugh, went home and swilled some whiskey and smoked some cigars, celebrating his victory over the forces of evil. What kind of sick bastard would do that? Is THIS the kind of people you want with total power? Is THIS the kind of human beings you want dealing with you and your family? The fact is that cop's can make themselves immune to human emotion and common sense and the law; it is easy. All you need it a closely knit and exclusive support influence from peers, other cop's. Next you need a system that encourages such beliefs, which we have. then you mix in the personality types listed above, throw in a twist of good old fashioned " patriotism ", or at least their concept of it, meaning obedience to their immediate superiors, and voila!!

You have a police state with a cowed and complacent population who never questions anything a cop says or does and never asserts any Rights. But there are some of us out there that will not give in and give up and let this come to pass without a fight. it needs to be turned around and the ONLY way to do that is to be informed, educated, and bold enough to make a stand against those who would dominate and control us. If EVERY citizen, across the nation, started tomorrow saying the same thing, every time, to every cop, and asserted their rights, we would see a sea change almost immediately.

Why should a cop take your rights seriously if YOU do not? There is good argument that they SHOULD in a just world, but for now it would suffice if every citizen stood firmly on their Rights, it would make a huge difference in many ways. Cop's would take note and stop asking for CONSENT if no one was giving it. Why bother when the people know their rights? Millions of drivers would not have to be embarrassed by being searched on the side of a road and having their time and lfe wasted by some cop on a fishing expedition if only ALL of us said " NO thanks, Officer, NO consent to search without a warrant".

The cop's could NOT hassle and violate too many people after a rights declaration before it would land in a court that would put a halt to it. If it were common, cop's would no longer see it as belligerant but merely the norm. It follows logically. it is the ONLY way we should be living in a free land. As it is now most people are mere pawns in the game and manipulated and violated by the cop's at their whim. That needs to change, and soon.

Failure to take a stand and assert your Rights will bite you in the ass when you get to Court; your attorney will tell you that you blew it, no defense to a 1st or 4th Amend. violation if you GAVE UP your rights to a cop who badgered and blustered and threatened you; you did NOT stand firm, and now you lose. The only way to win is to stand strong and together, otherwise they will continue to ask us to give up our rights as routinely as they do anything else that has no basis in our safety, privacy or in the preservation and protection of the Constitution and the precious Rights it affords us.

Do cop's act like friends, or enemies? Decide.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 10:13 AM
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ASSET FORFEITURE- HIGHWAY ROBBERY BY COP'S


A dangerous and disgusting new development in the war against police abuse is the use of ASSET FORFEITURE to steal the goods and money of Americans without just cause. The cop's just get some fool to give them consent to search during a ' traffic stop ' meaning when the cop's PROFILE a citizen and use some petty excuse to pull them over and start the game.

If an officer can get the citizen to give up their Rights, and give consent to search to the cop's, then the cop's will count how much cash a person has on them, usually by simply demanding that the driver hand his money over (!!) and if it is too much, in the OPINION OF THE COP, then the cop just STEALS IT and gives a receipt and laughs all the way to the bank!!

This is a CIVIL seizure and NOT a criminal matter, so it takes an attorney and a lot of expense and hassle to fight the PRESUMPTION OF GUILT and try to get your property back. That's right, you are presumed guilty until you prove your innocence. That goes against all principled justice and American values but so far the Courts have held it to be legal.

Think about it; you are in a cash business, vending machines, horse trading, you name it, and you are driving down the street to the bank to deposit your money and some redneck pig with dollar signs in his eyes decides to run the scam on you. If you give consent to search, you are screwed. NEVER ever give a cop consent to search, under any circumstances. It can NVEVER help you, only hurt you.

You do NOT have to have anything illegal on you, you do NOT have to be involved with crime, only have some cash on you. The cash that the thieving cop's steal from you gets divided up amongst the robbers, with the police dept. that stole it getting the lion's share. That is a HUGE way to encourage cop's to break more laws and violate more rights to get the cash. There are cases of cop's committing murder to get money from people, raids done to steal property because it had great value, and horror stories without end associated with this sickening travesty of justice.

If you have vaulables and must carry them on the road in this current police state we live in, here is the BEST way to try and keep your property from being stolen by thieving pig's: Always put money and other valuables in a LOCKED BRIEFCASE in the trunk of the car. Never give consent to a search under any circumstances, and you have a chance. Cop's MUST get a warrant to open a locked briedcase or suitcase in a trunk of a car, even if they arrest you and tow the vehicle.

Your attorney will tell you that you did the best thing possible if you follow that advice. Never give consent; it kills any chance you have in court. Always demand that your rights be observed and ignore all of the lying, blustering and bullying that the cop's try and pull on you. Stand firm and ignore their questions and orders and just keep refusing to give consent. Either they will go away, or you have a case for a lawsuit. But do it any other way and you will regret it.

NEVER TRUST A COP !! The police are the enemy and cannot be trusted at all. They will lie to you, abuse you, falsely charge you and perjure themselves on the stand so you owe them NO respect and NO loyalty. Save your loyalty for your fellow citizens , who will need to band together to make real change happen in this nation.

Homes and cars and the biggest score for the filthy thieves that steal from the public with badges and guns, the cop's. If a cop can catch a person with some illegal substance or plant some there, then they get to steal the car and often a home as well!! That means BIG bucks for the criminals cop's and their agencies, and they love that. It is full of opportunities to ruin lives and destroy families, but what the heck!! Cop's do not care about anything but the bottom line, like any other business.

The bottom line for them is money, peer recognition, bonuses, promotions based on arrest numbers,etc. If the cop's think that they can get away with taking your property without having to justify it they will do so. They have no morals, no sense of right and wrong, just a slavering desire to punish and hurt; that is how sick they are, and if you allow them to violate your rights by being weak and ignorant, then you will pay the price and get what always comes to those who trust in the jaded and corrupt cop's that shame the very name of justice.

I will give some examples of asset forfeiture horror's soon, as well as some examples of police murder and conspiracy. Cop's think murder is when someone else kills a person, to them it is just another way of getting what they want. The cop's hate you and every other civilian, we had better hate back with the same ferocity or we will become just more victims of police misconduct, violence and perjury.

NEVER GIVE CONSENT TO A SEARCH, NO MATTER WHAT THE PIG SAYS

ALWAYS keep valuables locked in a seperate case in the trunk of the car.

Always have a safe at home to keep valuables in and NEVER give the pig's the combination no matter WHAT lies they tell. If they have a legal right to it, they can get a locksmith,,right? You forgot the combination.

The police today are NOT the kindly street cop walking a beat. they are robbers with guns looking for easy mark's, and you are nothing to them but a potential victim of their chicanery. They will set you up, plant drugs or weapons on you, will lie to get your property and will kill you if they think they can get away with it. The cop's MUST be watched and mistrusted as long as things are this way, and it looks like it may get worse, if that is possible, with the likes of Bush and Cheney and Gonzalez as examples of obeying the law we might as well admit that this is a police state and that we are at war with the forces of INJUSTICE who wish to strip us of all our rights..

Protect yourself and your property, never give consent, never be careless with personal property and leave it where a cop can find it, or it will be stolen by them. Cop's today are no better than the crooks they chase so watch out for them the same as you do for robbers that do NOT have a badge; they are the hardest to spot coming and the worst to deal with. Cop's are despicable and dangerous threats to society as they are now and big chnages are needed to restore us to a democracy again and get the police state under control.



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 11:10 AM
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I just want to give Eyewitness KUDOS
for his posts on this thread. Preach it brother!

People are brainwashed continually through the msm particularly tv shows like COPS, where they show the moron saying "Yeah you can search my car", but NEVER show the american saying "NO, not without a warrant." Thisputs into the sheeples minds that really the cop don't have to ask, and that you can't say no. There are many examples of the Brainwashing the powers that be use to make people believe that cops are all powerful.

SO great job on educating the masses, if I knew how to applause or WATS you I would so maybe someone can tell me how to do that...



posted on Jul, 15 2007 @ 06:51 PM
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Well, thank you kindly. I was really gratified to get a positive comment after so many naysayers and uneducated people try and defend the indefensible.

Don't worry about applause and such; my satisfaction comes from knowing that at least ONE person benefitted from this in some way or other. If ONE more person finds the courage to resist the bullyiing and pressure that the cop's apply on driver's and citizens daily, then it will have been worth it all.

Think about it, if it were common, accepted, part of the norm, to always invoke the Rights when called for, it would be no controversy and cop's would act a whole lot differently then they do now. They would not be over bearing and aggressive like they act to get the citizen cowed and ready to give CONSENT when they ' ask ' for it. Here is a typical trick cop question:

" Since you don't have any guns or drugs in your car, you won't mind me taking a quick look through , will you?". While he is saying this he is moving to open the car door, (which as an intelligent and aware citizen you closed and locked BEHIND you when the cop ordered you out of the car)... See? In order to object you almost have to imply that you have gun's and or drugs!! THAT is why you never play their game, do not even start. You will lose every time. Play YOUR game, the one the attorney's say to play.

Stay calm, assert your rights fully, and cooperate physically. In the above scenario, the cop would have to violate your rights or arrest you for dubious reasons to get your keys to get in your car. The average citizen usually leaves the keys in the ignition, sometimes cops will say " leave the keys in it "., when you are ordered out. IGNORE THAT ORDER, It is NOT a lawful order unless you have been placed under arrest and are going to have your car towed anyway. But under almost all circumstances, you can take your keys, lock the car, and ignore the cops ' request ' to leave them there. No law against securing your vehicle while dealing with a cop.

The ONLY necessary things to say are " Am I free to leave?", or " I do NOT give consent to any searches ". Period. Any other conversation puts you at risk of getting involved in the intimidation, pressure, threats, lies and misstatements of law that are NORMAL parts of the GAME to the cop's. They CANNOT deny this, they just do not like to talk about it. It is their bread and butter, and they hate anyone who throws up a roadblock to an easy bust with a conviction assured and assets to seize; great publicity and money for the boss..life can't get much better than to be a Task Force toady these days. No conscience or alliegence to the Constitution needed, bad tempers preferred , disdain for ' smart alecks ' ( intellectuals ) a plus,Republican voter of course, apply within, Bullneck Hogbreath, Sheriff.

Cop's make a habit of asking for CONSENT because they are fishing and it is like casting a very big net and hoping that they can drag something in. There is no basis in law for it; it is just brazen attempts to get people to give up their rights because the cop's cannot get a warrant when they have no PROBABLE CAUSE . Probable cause is the holy grail of the arrest standard; if not met it means that the arrest is bogus and ready for a nice juicy lawsuit.

Cop's will do almost ANYTHING to get consent, they will ask questions, accuse you of hiding something, threaten you with dire consequences if you make them ' get a dog ', etc. It is all a bluff. If you stand your ground, one of two things will happen: Either the cop will back off, most likely..or he will violate your rights and set himself up for a lawsuit. It is up to them. Normally they will back off; it IS a game after all and as much as they HATE to lose even one point, they WILL relent in order to keep playing another day. It is a numbers game to them, so if a few citizens stand firm and make them obey the law and respect their Rights, so what?

But now imagine if EVERYONE acted the same way and insisted on their Rights being respected..and the cop's did NOT routinely ask citizens to give up their rights, and only true suspects were bothered and questioned by the cop's? Would'nt that be a better world for everyone? People would actually respect the cop's then instead of fearing them. there is EVERY reason to fear someone with an agenda and an attitude and no interest in our Rights at all, only in his goals. So we MUST be prepared, and aware and firm. One can be polite, but firm. Do NOT start answering questions, it is a losing battle. Ignore all questions.

Just state that you do not give consent to any searches and that you would like to leave as soon as possible. Then clam up. That frustrates a cop more than anything, and is SUPER effective. Just remain silent in the face of his harangue. Calm and quiet. He KNOWS how bad it will look in a court to have testimony saying that the defendant was calm and quiet and just insisting on having his Rights respected..how can a cop make a legal case against a person who does that? They cannot!! They know that the informed citizen is likely to be able to mount a defense and make trouble for a wayward cop so they have to think twice before violating someone who is aware and firm.

No, the cop's have all of the timid, shy, weak, reticent, obedient and conditioned citizens they need to feed on; it is YOUR choice if you want to be one of them , or one of the one's driving away merrily secure in the knowledge that the Constitution and the protections it delivers are still alive and well, in part due to your own courage and committment. It is a GOOD feeling, one that the cop's and their minions and groupies will never know unless they renounce aggressive and demeaning police tactics, tactics that call for the giving up of Rights as a common event. No cop should ask you to give up a right..and no citizen should allow it to happen.

Cop's by nature will keep taking and taking until there is no way that your Rights mean anything at all; they actually believe that THEY are the best deciders of where the lines should be drawn, but history has taught us that if anything is true, it is that with a cop, there is no line, it is all flexible depending on the situation, and when a cop swerves over the line of demarcation of our Rights, it always causes a head on crash with fatalities; the Rights, the law, and sometimes, us. Never give consent!!! Ever!!! Never!!! OK? OK.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 02:52 PM
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Now on to more topics: Video and audio taping of the Police.

Lately we have seen the heavy hand of elitism and brazen offrontery in action as we read about citizens being charged with ' wiretapping ' for taping the cop's during a stop. It will never stand in court and is nonsense.

While there well may be some very limited and specific exceptions , virtually all taping and recording of the cop's is perfectly legal, despite their lies. The cop's have tape and aaudio that they use on us, the public, all the time. In squad cars it is more comon to see those dash cam's and they are often linked to a microphone on the cop that transmits audio back to the cruiser.

Generally speaking, if ONE or more parites know that a conversation is being taped, it is legal. State laws vary, so check with a lawyer for any specific advice. But generally, the Federal court decisions on these matters is the law of the land, and no where does it say that the public cannot tape a cop, but that a cop can tape us. No way. Is not there.

Of course, the cop's HATE to be videotaped themselves, as they have to either be on their best behavior, which should be the normal thing anway, or they can violate the rights of the citizen on tape and have proof for a lawsuit handy. That they hate, proof of their misdeeds and coercion and badgering to get consent sounds REALLY bad in court and so the cop's will do almost anything to discourage being filmed, including LYING, and saying that it is illegal. They use various excuses for this, never able to cite a real statute that is relevant, just bluff and lies.

Or, if filmed really acting out, they sometimes just steal the camera, ruin it or erase the tape, and then make you come into enemy territory to get it back!! This is blatantly illegal and should be the subject of a federal alwsuit. You would be suprised how scared you can make a cop when that letter hit's his mailbox with a supoena to the Federal courthouse to answer for violating the civil rights of a citizen. That gets their attention fast. So they resist filimng, except under tightly controlled circumstances, as they spend a great deal of their time trying to get people to give up their rights and skirting the very law's that they are supposed to be enforcing!!

There is no law that says that you cannot have a voice activated tape recorder in your top pocket or elsewhere, and you can record all the live long day if you want to; if a cop pulls you over, you do NOT have to stop taping because HIs Majesty has arrived! It is your Right to tape and it is in your best interests to do so. It protects you from a cop that perjures himself, and that is the VAST majority. The truth is the enemy of the street cop; only his ' perceptions ' are valid and the citizens' view be damned. That is how they feel. So do not give in to their lies, you cannot be arrested and convicted under the law for filimng a cop during a stop. If hassled, get the papers ready and file on them; once word gets out that you are a danger to the bad cop's, they will leave you alone.

there is one particular Sheriffs Deputy here that does not like me for some reason!! But he keeps his distance and never challenges me ever since I made a buddy of his look like a fool in court one day with a great attorney, got charges dismissed, pissed the judge off that the cop was so obviously lying and had no reason to charge..they hate to be exposed like that and the humiliation is a very effective tool against their skullduggery.

More soon.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 04:07 PM
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posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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I have a question for everyone here who hates the police. If the police are so evil and corrupt how should we go about enforcing our laws? Should we even bother to have laws?

When will the police finally get rights like the rest of us? Afterall, they are humans too (believe it or not).



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 05:34 PM
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ChrisF, I don't hate the police.
I mistrust them. As a group.
If I have individual dealings with a cop, off the record, I usually have no problems.

I've been in situations where they would/could not help me.
I've been in situations where they have abused their power.
I've been in situations where they stood together against one of their own, one held as a scapegoat.
I've been in situations where I called and no one came.

Sure they are understaffed. (Aren't we ALL these days.)
Sure the laws often hobble them.
I know they're not all bad.
But all too often they see only black and white....life is shades of grey.


I don't trust them until I get to know them.

And, I heard they just lowered the standards to become a cop.
Heaven help us.



BTW, I think it's REALLY unfair of you to say we hate cops.



posted on Jul, 16 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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It has NOTHING to do with hate!! That is the misconception. Why on earth do some people equate taking a firm and polite stand on your Rights to be an antagonistic action? Is it because some people cannot imagine speaking up and not cowering before authority? Is it just a fear of angering the cop? No matter what the cause, it is a mistake to assume that the cop's are anything but parisan actors that will try and get us to give up our Rights..and they do not think a thing about how that practice destroys the system and enslaves the people.

No one can point to a law that says that the filing of cop's is illegal, it is not. Cop's would like it to be so, but so far we still have a FEW rights left, and we had better hold onto them with dear life or suffer the consequences.



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