To John Lear and Sleeper: Planet Neptune - A Waterworld?

Originally posted by ChocoTaco369
How does astronomers seeing Neptune through a telescope and performing size and mass calculations tell anyone it's made of gas? Spectroscopy doesn't say it's gaseous, either. Spectroscopy can only tell you what the outermost shell of atmosphere is made of. Neptune is larger than Earth and its atmospheres may have a lot more layers.

Don't forget that Voyager 2 flew by neptun and took some pictures in 1989. I think you can find a lot of pictures on the net. I certainly have them in many books

Does anyone remember the photos of comet fragments (I forget which comet was breaking up...Levy?) as they impacted Jupiter? Now, it seems obvious that Jupiter has a gaseous upper atmosphere, doubt anyone would argue that? OK...but how deep? That's where science comes in...Jupiter's total mass can be estimated, based on orbital observations of its ellipse, and the behavior of its moons. The diameter of the planet has been measured...hence its density can be calculated, no? Based on those estimates it can be determined whether or not Jupiter is a solid, rocky mass with deep oceans, or mostly gas.

Neptune is farther out...after Jupiter, there's Saturn, then Uranus...finally lonely Neptune. (Lonely since Pluto isn't such a good cousin anymore).

Anyhow, seems more likely, to me, that it is way cold that far out...average 30 AU. 7.8 times the diameter of Earth.

Hello all...

I wasn't going to post anything today as I decided that is pretty useless to post opinions and stories without any good 'convincing artifacts' (realize I don't say proof). So I haven't posted anything in some time, and will only do when is something worthy FOR THOSE WHO WILL READ IT.

But in fact one comment from the last post made me halt my work and stop to think about something for a few minutes.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Does anyone remember the photos of comet fragments (I forget which comet was breaking up...Levy?) as they impacted Jupiter?

Now, before I speak my mind, I would like to make it clear that I'm not advocating pro nor against Lear's theories. I don't follow up his work and I don't agree with everything he says. In fact I don't agree with what MOST people on ATS say.

Now, let's get back to the topic over here.

I do remember photos and news articles about a comet "hitting" Jupiter. and leaving some sort of "scar spot". (Can't remember which comet was, maybe Levy indeed).
I also remember a space probe that impacted on Saturn (was it cassini?, can' remember exactly).

My question is: how can things HIT or IMPACT on a "gas body"?
If those planets are gas giants as the OFFICIAL STORY, wouldn't the comet and the probe simply pierce through the planet and come out the other side? Or if it exploded inside the atmosphere would it leave a "mark"?

So I think either those planets are NOT made of -only- gas OR nothing ever impacted on them.

Am I getting lost here? Please, your thoughts on this..

Peace


PS.: sorry for bad english... portuguese speaker over here

Originally posted by Sator
My question is: how can things HIT or IMPACT on a "gas body"?
If those planets are gas giants as the OFFICIAL STORY, wouldn't the comet and the probe simply pierce through the planet and come out the other side? Or if it exploded inside the atmosphere would it leave a "mark"?

Jovian atmosphere has a complex structure to it, with the red spot being one of many relatively stable components. As such, I wouldn't be surprosed if a disturbance/discoloration due to the energy released and foreign matter deposited in the upper layers of the atmosphere were visible for some period of time after the impact.

There is no way a comet could have "pierced" Jupiter due to the giant size of this planet. It evaporated completely, leaving a trail of plasma in Jovian atmosphere.

Originally posted by Sator
My question is: how can things HIT or IMPACT on a "gas body"?

Your English is excellent....don't worry.

The gas that composes gas giants isn't in the familiar wispy or ephemeral form we see on Earth. Although, liquid hydrogen, oxygen, etc., is fairly common in some industries. The tremendous pressures produces a structure that is incredibly dense......sometimes approaching nearly metallic state. An earthbound analogy is water......it appears as a gaseous vapor (steam), or it's much denser version, liquid. I would much prefer to freefall through a cloud, than hit the surface of the ocean after my chute fails. Virtually the same substance, dramatically different conclusions.

[edit on 5-12-2007 by MrPenny]

reply to post by Sator


Hi Sater...

Well...the impacts (the after-effects) on Jupiter looked and acted in ways similar to what you might see if something very large dropped down through the clouds. Think of this: The ocean is not a solid, correct? A large object dropped into a body of water would create massive waves, ripples and displacement. Liquids and gasses behave similarly, but because a gas is less dense than a liquid its behavior will be observably different.

Thanks

edit for spelling

[edit on 5-12-2007 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Thanks for the input, weedwhacker.

I understand your analogy but still I must ask: What did these objects (probe and comet) HIT after all? A gas cloud?

I can udnerstand something hitting the water and exploding, but the official story is that there's no liquid in those planets, right?

So what made them explode? I thought perhaps the huge atmospheric pressure would do the job, but then again a huge pressure to explode/implode a comet would turn gas to liquid... Am I going crazy? Or just ignorant?

Peace

reply to post by Sator


Read my post above. Meteorites burn in Earth atmosphere and larger bodies can burn up (evaporate) in Jupiter's.

MrPenny and buddhasystem :

Thanks for your inputs... I don't know what happened to my work computer here, but I did not see your replies before I posted my second.


It's getting clear now... thanks again.


Peace

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by ChocoTaco369
How does astronomers seeing Neptune through a telescope and performing size and mass calculations tell anyone it's made of gas?

Let me make a wild guess... By calculating it's density?

Does that ring the bell? That density is 1.638g/cm3. There can only be a small hard core in that planet (and nobody is arguing with that possibility). According to modern theories, even Saturn has a small rocky core. When talking about "gas giants" etc, this surely doesn't mean that the planet doesn't have one, it only means that it's a very different planet from Earth-like worlds like Venus and Mars.

I think this is an important point to make. Neptune is a very strange place compared to Earth. John Lear's point that people "live there like they do on Earth" is without merit.
[\quote]
Haha, no one knows the exact density of Neptune. It's all a guess. Everything is based on theory. It's a calculation of the size, mass and gravitational pull. But guess what, these are all estimations. If our gravitational theory is incorrect, then the mass of Neptune is incorrect and the density will be wayyyy off. Besides, no one knows how thick or thin the atmosphere of Neptune is. No one knows the exact density, either. It's all guesses, none of it is fact because the equations used to calculate these things aren't based on fact. They're based on one man's wild guess that eventually gained a lot of support and snowballed into mainstream science over years.

What if Neptune has an extensive atmosphere? Maybe Neptune is only twice the size of Earth and what you see it all atmosphere? That would mean Neptune could be made out of completely different materials.

The FACT is, no one knows. No one has any proof that gas giants exist or anything.

Originally posted by tep200377

Originally posted by ChocoTaco369
How does astronomers seeing Neptune through a telescope and performing size and mass calculations tell anyone it's made of gas? Spectroscopy doesn't say it's gaseous, either. Spectroscopy can only tell you what the outermost shell of atmosphere is made of. Neptune is larger than Earth and its atmospheres may have a lot more layers.

Don't forget that Voyager 2 flew by neptun and took some pictures in 1989. I think you can find a lot of pictures on the net. I certainly have them in many books

Don't forget that these pictures are not sent directly to NASA. They're sent other places first, then sent back to NASA. These pictures take hours upon hours to be sent to Earth. Who says the pictures the scientists received from Voyager 2 are actually what the planet looks like?

When all the methods of making detailed images of Neptune come from the same source, you can't fully trust that the information is true. They can tell you anything.

reply to post by ChocoTaco369


Oooh Choco... I see now... You are saying the gravitational theory is not correct... You can always test it by jumoing off a tall building and measuring the time elapsed between the jump and the time you crater, if you are quick enough to push the stop button before the impact.

Seriousy, if you declare that our body of knowledge is all guesses, is't up to you but in that case your guesses are worse than other people's guesses, because these other guesses make reliable predictions and yours do not. End of story.

Originally posted by DaRAGE
I highly doubt you'd receiev anything but immature nonsense out of john lear. He wont answer any of your logical questions. I seriously dont know how he got to be a "conspiracy master", with his own forum section. Quite ridiculous really.

This post got five stars?

Absolutely amazing... I guess the stars are for the intelligent discussion of the topic at hand... or the relative information you provided

I mean it wouldn't be the "Skeptic Cult" recently formed just placing stars for no reason... I am sure they are not that childish...

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by DaRAGE
I highly doubt you'd receiev anything but immature nonsense out of john lear. He wont answer any of your logical questions. I seriously dont know how he got to be a "conspiracy master", with his own forum section. Quite ridiculous really.

This post got five stars?

Well, it must then the strike a chord with a lot of forum members, don't you think, Zorgon? It's a vote of confidence in the DaRAGE's opinion about some of the comments posted in thi thread.


[edit on 5-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

dupe removed

[edit on 5-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

Just to make this pretty clear, NASA made voyager. NASA sendt it out to space with its own space control center. And now you tell me that NASA are not the one getting the photos? .. Are you simply telling me that the images are sent to Wall-Mart for production before NASA get to see them?

Btw: an image from deep space is still an image from deep space, even though it takes hours to send them. I don'r really know where you are getting at with that comparison ..

Originally posted by tep200377




Just to make this pretty clear, NASA made voyager. NASA sendt it out to space with its own space control center. And now you tell me that NASA are not the one getting the photos? .. Are you simply telling me that the images are sent to Wall-Mart for production before NASA get to see them?

Btw: an image from deep space is still an image from deep space, even though it takes hours to send them. I don'r really know where you are getting at with that comparison ..

The image doesn't go directly to the room at NASA where the scientists are waiting for it. It may take a few hours for the picture to be sent from Neptune from Earth, but it may take a few days until the scientists actually get their pictures. I'd imagine that with pretty much everything in a government facility, it has to be analyzed by security first. Think of it like this: the photo gets sent from Neptune to some underground research facility to be sanitized, then it gets sent to the scientists at NASA to be released to the public.

reply to post by ChocoTaco369


Well, ChocoTaco369,

With respect, consider this: Neptune is a long, long way away. You will not dispute that fact, I hope?

Approximately 30 AU, that's its distance from our Sun...anyway, one AU is about 8 light minutes....so 30 AU would be four hours, for a radio signal (which, as you know, travels at light speed).

NOW...our orbiters, the probes we launch to explore the Outer Solar System are incredible, but small and well-designed. (Economics, and all that....).

Sending data from 2,890,000,000 miles away isn't quite the same as sending a picture into your friend's text message on his phone! Line by line, each line needing to be cleared up for interfernce that can degrade the signal...computers enhance. Spectroscopy data and other science, and data, are in the feeble signal transmitted by an automobile-sized machine (if that big) that had to survive for years to get out there....

I trust you will go do some research...I admit I did only a little, I relied on part of my memory to fill in the blanks (as to the size of the Cassini probe) but my gist remains the same. Please do not post nonsense that you may (or may not, I'm not assuming) got from YouTube. ATS is better than YouTube by about, oh, 10,000 percent...just my opinion.

Thanks for your post....

[edit about Cassini...I think Cassini was sent to Saturn. I think you're right, it was Voyager I or II (or both?) that swung by Neptune...]


[edit on 6-12-2007 by weedwhacker]

Well, whether Jupiter is solid or a gas giant, is a moot question. But analyses point to it being the latter. A gas giant doesn’t imply that the entire planet is just a gas ball. It does have a solid core, but this is comparatively small. So as one ATSer had mentioned something about the comet going right through the planet isn’t quite right.

Where Shoemaker Levy is concerned, each comet fragment entered Jupiter's atmosphere at a speed of around 130,000 mph (60 km/s). At an altitude of about 100 km above the visible cloud level, aerodynamic forces tore it apart. Five seconds after entry, the comet fragments probably deposited their kinetic energy 100-150 km below the cloud layer.

On entering the Jovian atmosphere, the hot (30,000 K) gases resulting from the comets entry exploded, forming fireballs similar to a nuclear explosion, but much larger. Some fragments created large fireballs that rose above the limb of Jupiter and left giant dark marks on the planet, while other fragments seem to have left little trace of their impact. The fireball from fragment G rose about 3000 km above the Jovian cloud tops and was observed by many observatories.

Here’s a computer simulation of a 10^28 erg comet explosion in Jupiter, contained in a paper written by Kevin Zahnle (NASA Ames Research Center) and Mordecai-Mark Mac Low (University of Chicago) titled "The Collision of Jupiter and Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9."Colors represent temperature: blue for the coldest and red for the hottest.
Note that the the blue horizontal line towards the bottom of each image represents the Jovian tropopause.

10 Seconds


30 Seconds


50 Seconds


90 Seconds


Images courtesy: Kevin Zahnle (NASA Ames Research Center)
and Mordecai-Mark Mac Low (University of Chicago) titled,
"The Collision of Jupiter and Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9.

Here’s an impact image of fragment G taken by the HST.


Courtesy: ISC/Tamu

> The small black spot: Impact site of fragment D that stuck Jupiter the day before fragment G hit. The fragment G fireball rose about 3000 km above the Jovian cloud tops and struck with an estimated energy equivalent to 6,000,000 megatons of TNT.

> The thin ring: Possible shock wave in the atmosphere moving outward from where the fragment exploded below the cloud tops.

> Dark streak inside ring: Path of the fragment with the entry point being on the south end.

> Broad horseshoe-shaped feature: Resettling debris from the fireball.

I hope this has clarified somewhat whether the fragments hit a solid surface or otherwise!

Cheers!

Ref:
seds.lpl.arizona.edu...
www.isc.tamu.edu...

reply to post by weedwhacker

What does this have to do with anything I said? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said. What does how the transmission is sent have to do with who receives it first?

My point is that no one knows who gets these images first, and no one knows if the scientists get the actual images that they take. No one knows if they're doctored or not, and no one knows if the colors are completely accurate.

We don't know anything about Neptune other than it's bigger than Earth, it's really far away and it looks blue from a telescope. That's ALL we know for sure.

If you care to reply to what I actually posted this time, feel free to

[edit on 6-12-2007 by ChocoTaco369]