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The signs

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posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 01:18 PM
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Yes we should understand what bad is. But to say enjoy killing and raps is stupid. No where in the bible does it say to enjoy what is not good. Those things came from what God did not want. The devil made those things possible. Those things make people suffer. To enjoy other suffering is wrong. God is love. Not pain.




posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 01:24 PM
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Really now, I thank the Lord that we have sickness and hunger, death and destruction, wars and rape.

Such great gifts! How could I possibly enjoy the good without the bad? Could I enjoy health if I had never been sick, or seen another person sick? Could I possibly enjoy the relative peace I live in had I not seen war?

How can you recognize good if you have no concept of the bad?

Would we appreciate and enjoy a warm and sunny spring day if we had never been cold and wet?

You say the Lord has failed! How pitiful and sad your life must be to have such a view. I feel so sad for you, and yet you are an example to me of how a mind can be sour, how a soul can wrestle with life (and you are or you wouldn’t feel the need to comment on these discussions) and for that I thank you and the Lord for making my pain seem small.

How boring the life you would lead! No pain, no suffering, no benchmark to judge what is good and pleasurable! No variety, only good that we can’t see for lack of contrast. How sad.



We should know what bad and suffering is. But enjoy evil or suffering is not what god wanted. pain and suffering,killing, rap that came by not by God will. But the will of the devil. God first plan was not to have all this problems. God is love, not pain. to enjoy it is not right.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb
We should know what bad and suffering is. But enjoy evil or suffering is not what god wanted. pain and suffering,killing, rap that came by not by God will. But the will of the devil. God first plan was not to have all this problems. God is love, not pain. to enjoy it is not right.
But your god made the devil and has the power of foreknowledge. So wouldn't that still make evil and sufferring gods fault as he knew what the devil would do but created him anyway.

Not seeing the love there - or anywhere for that matter


G



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb
We should know what bad and suffering is. But enjoy evil or suffering is not what god wanted. pain and suffering,killing, rap that came by not by God will. But the will of the devil.


what the hell?
rap? are you saying that rap is the work of the devil? honestly, that is just stupid. i mean, i can understand putting pain, suffering, and killing... ok, no i can't. i can't understand why the hell you grant the devil near omnipotent status, power to the point of being able to do a hell of a lot more than god has...



God first plan was not to have all this problems. God is love, not pain. to enjoy it is not right.


then why did he put the tree in the garden?
and why did god kill more people in the bible than the devil?

[edit on 7/23/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 03:25 PM
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But your god made the devil and has the power of foreknowledge. So wouldn't that still make evil and sufferring gods fault as he knew what the devil would do but created him anyway.


Even as God is all knowing. That does'nt mean he didnt give free will. God didnt chose the path for the devil. He made his choices. As for the all knowing still yet. Did you ever think that it would be better at the end of time this way. I didnt say it sounds good. It sounds even cruel. But be happy that God gave you a choice to which you believe.


Not seeing the love there - or anywhere for that matter


Sometimes I dont either. Its not like I like what happens in life all the time, in fact for me, I am tired of the life to which he gave me. But that does'nt me I stop the belief in what is real, cuz of the bad things in life.



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 03:37 PM
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what the hell?
rap? are you saying that rap is the work of the devil? honestly, that is just stupid. i mean, i can understand putting pain, suffering, and killing... ok, no i can't. i can't understand why the hell you grant the devil near omnipotent status, power to the point of being able to do a hell of a lot more than god has...


What I am saying is without the devil those things would not be possible. Its someone else falt for being evil. But evil would not be in the world with the devil.


then why did he put the tree in the garden?
and why did god kill more people in the bible than the devil?


Its debatable weather God kill more than the devil. God kill cuz they were evil. Reading parts of the bible does'nt help you. Try reading all of the bible. The true in the garden was the tree of knowledge. It was'nt a tree evil. God knew what would happen puting the tree there. That fact is free will is better than making people follow. daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb

But your god made the devil and has the power of foreknowledge. So wouldn't that still make evil and sufferring gods fault as he knew what the devil would do but created him anyway.


Even as God is all knowing. That does'nt mean he didnt give free will.
I don't have free will if your god knows what will happen to everyone from now till the end of time.

God didnt chose the path for the devil. He made his choices.
As did your god, he chose to create a being that would do these things therefore creating the evil. The thing is your belief states that your god created everything which would include all the suffering and evil that abounds the world. And the notion of your god being omniscient would presuppose your god knew that this would be the case and CHOSE to do nothing apart from some half arsed attempt by jesus - which by the way, as has been shown over the past 2000 years, is just as bad,cruel and evil as most other religious efforts. So forgive me for being just a tiny bit skeptical of your claims for your god because to me your god has caused more human suffering than you claim your god to be capable of - Love, Benevolance, Compasion yada yada yada.

As for the all knowing still yet. Did you ever think that it would be better at the end of time this way. I didnt say it sounds good. It sounds even cruel. But be happy that God gave you a choice to which you believe.
Lets just be clear here, you believe that your god created everything, which by the way would include how people are today, your god MADE me an atheist, your god made hitler, ghenghis khan, all the paedophiles, murderers, slease balls etc. Your god made you, why would your god create such conflicting people if not to create conflict??
Benevolance????



Not seeing the love there - or anywhere for that matter


Sometimes I dont either. Its not like I like what happens in life all the time, in fact for me, I am tired of the life to which he gave me. But that does'nt me I stop the belief in what is real, cuz of the bad things in life.
It's only your belief that makes it real, just like my non belief - its only that assumption that differs, that assumption that causes the conflict. Why should we in this day and age be so conflictive in what we will NEVER know, It makes me sad but its great fun debating it, hell it even helps make life worthwhile but as we already know THAT assumption will always cause conflict.


Cheers G



posted on Jul, 23 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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I don't have free will if your god knows what will happen to everyone from now till the end of time.


He might know what will happen but in the end its YOUR choice to do what you want. God never made you do anything.


As did your god, he chose to create a being that would do these things therefore creating the evil. The thing is your belief states that your god created everything which would include all the suffering and evil that abounds the world. And the notion of your god being omniscient would presuppose your god knew that this would be the case and CHOSE to do nothing apart from some half arsed attempt by jesus - which by the way, as has been shown over the past 2000 years, is just as bad,cruel and evil as most other religious efforts. So forgive me for being just a tiny bit skeptical of your claims for your god because to me your god has caused more human suffering than you claim your god to be capable of - Love, Benevolance, Compasion yada yada yada.


God chose do things the better way other than forceing people to do things. Like I said he never made you do anything. God does have a bad temper. He shows he loves the world and the better way of life and they commit sin. Like the jews coming out of Eypt. God is love, but he has no love for the wrong.


Lets just be clear here, you believe that your god created everything, which by the way would include how people are today, your god MADE me an atheist, your god made hitler, ghenghis khan, all the paedophiles, murderers, slease balls etc. Your god made you, why would your god create such conflicting people if not to create conflict??
Benevolance????


God man the man, the man makes the person. GOD GAVE YOU THE FREE WILL TO LEAD THE LIFE YOU WANT, he also gave you eyes and a mind to see the things around you. Every person on earth has free will. dont ever forget that.


It's only your belief that makes it real, just like my non belief - its only that assumption that differs, that assumption that causes the conflict. Why should we in this day and age be so conflictive in what we will NEVER know, It makes me sad but its great fun debating it, hell it even helps make life worthwhile but as we already know THAT assumption will always cause conflict.


Have fun haveing fun. Truth of the matter is life after death is a big gamable how you live it is your choice.


Cheers G

[edit on 23-7-2007 by slymattb]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 06:32 AM
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Originally posted by slymattb
What I am saying is without the devil those things would not be possible. Its someone else falt for being evil. But evil would not be in the world with the devil.


but god CREATED the devil. without god those things would not be possible. and again, you're calling a genre of music evil... that's just stupid.



Its debatable weather God kill more than the devil.


no, there isn't a debate at all. the devil killed something like 30.... god killed millions.



God kill cuz they were evil.


sure, all of the middianites he ordered to be killed were evil... as were all the people that died in the flood, oh, and the firstborn children of egypt were evil too...

innocent children killed...



Reading parts of the bible does'nt help you. Try reading all of the bible.


um, i've read the whole thing through, cover to cover, TWICE.



The true in the garden was the tree of knowledge. It was'nt a tree evil. God knew what would happen puting the tree there. That fact is free will is better than making people follow.


but god said we couldn't eat from it
and if he knew what would happen when he put it there... there isn't free will. you're contradicting yourself.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 06:33 AM
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double post

[edit on 7/24/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by trust

Im not going to reply to this thread just keep this stuff in you minds


I guess that's two theories your wrong on.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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but god CREATED the devil. without god those things would not be possible.


God created the man, the man had free will to chose different. God didnt write his path for him. He chose the path. God knows the options in life for each man. He might in the end most likely know which one he will chose. But end the end, people all the time do things God would not want. Its the way of life.


and again, you're calling a genre of music evil... that's just stupid.


I dont understand what you are meaning.


no, there isn't a debate at all. the devil killed something like 30.... god killed millions.


Open the mind, expand the mine. It might help. If the devil creat evil, and people commit evil acts, end the end its the devil falt.


sure, all of the middianites he ordered to be killed were evil... as were all the people that died in the flood, oh, and the firstborn children of egypt were evil too...


Bad things happen in life to which God does not want. Blaming him does'nt help anythings. Just because bad things happen does'nt mean it was what God want or was in control of.


um, i've read the whole thing through, cover to cover, TWICE.


Twice and know your a know it all. Takes more than twice to understand the full meaning of the bible. I have read more than twice and three four and more. And still need to read more.


but god said we couldn't eat from it
and if he knew what would happen when he put it there... there isn't free will. you're contradicting yourself.


The free will was to tell them no and give them a chance to chose different. daaaaa



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by slymattb
God created the man, the man had free will to chose different. God didnt write his path for him. He chose the path. God knows the options in life for each man. He might in the end most likely know which one he will chose. But end the end, people all the time do things God would not want. Its the way of life.


but god somehow knows how it's all going to turn out to the point where we have an entire book that he supposedly inspired on how the world is going to end...

end of world prophecy = no free will



I dont understand what you are meaning.


you lumped rap in with murder and other crimes as evil earlier



Open the mind, expand the mine. It might help. If the devil creat evil, and people commit evil acts, end the end its the devil falt.


and if god created the devil, then god is at fault.
and again... i thought man chose stuff, the devil didn't create it...
where does it say in the bible that the devil created evil?



Bad things happen in life to which God does not want. Blaming him does'nt help anythings. Just because bad things happen does'nt mean it was what God want or was in control of.


um, i listed things that god was directly responsible for. like when god killed all the firstborn children of egypt. or when god ordered the genocide of the middianites.



Twice and know your a know it all. Takes more than twice to understand the full meaning of the bible. I have read more than twice and three four and more. And still need to read more.


well, i've only gone cover to cover twice, i've probably read it over a dozen times if you count reading of passages. there isn't much to understand, it's a quite primitive and straightforward book... as you'd expect anything written in the bronze and iron ages to be...



The free will was to tell them no and give them a chance to chose different. daaaaa


but it's still god being a prick and witholding knowledge.



posted on Jul, 24 2007 @ 12:21 PM
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but god somehow knows how it's all going to turn out to the point where we have an entire book that he supposedly inspired on how the world is going to end...


Says he knows how it going to turn out. But he didnt write the path to which you chose.


end of world prophecy = no free will


You still can do what ever it is you want. There is a battle going out there, a battle for souls. He knows how that battle will turn out. But end the end every person on earth can chose to do what he wants. As you can be a athesis. Free will.



and if god created the devil, then god is at fault.
and again... i thought man chose stuff, the devil didn't create it...
where does it say in the bible that the devil created evil?


God created the angel. The Angel creat himself to be evil. Not God. God might of knew what would happen. But God also knew the ending of it all. And yet through all of this everyone can still do what they want. Free will was why we went through all of this. The devil had free will to chose to be good, or do what he did.


um, i listed things that god was directly responsible for. like when god killed all the firstborn children of egypt. or when god ordered the genocide of the middianites.


Sometimes we are not to question the will of God. Its not our choice to decide what is right and wrong. End the end God had a reason for it.


well, i've only gone cover to cover twice, i've probably read it over a dozen times if you count reading of passages. there isn't much to understand, it's a quite primitive and straightforward book... as you'd expect anything written in the bronze and iron ages to be...


The bible is everything but primitive and straightforward. you have to read between the lines to understand everthing in it.


but it's still god being a prick and witholding knowledge.


To be honest sometimes I think he's being a prick, and yes he does withold some knowledge. But its not our choice to decide what is right and wrong, or what we should know and what we should not.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 04:49 AM
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Originally posted by slymattb
Says he knows how it going to turn out. But he didnt write the path to which you chose.


if god knows the outcome of events before we make our choice than our choice is predetermined, and we have no free will




You still can do what ever it is you want. There is a battle going out there, a battle for souls. He knows how that battle will turn out. But end the end every person on earth can chose to do what he wants. As you can be a athesis. Free will.


again, if everything has a predetermined ending we have no free will.



God created the angel. The Angel creat himself to be evil. Not God. God might of knew what would happen. But God also knew the ending of it all. And yet through all of this everyone can still do what they want. Free will was why we went through all of this. The devil had free will to chose to be good, or do what he did.


and again, you're contradicting yourself. you just took away god's omniscience, gave the devil the ability to override god, then gave god omniscience again, then made it so that the devil CHOSE to be evil instead of creating it...



Sometimes we are not to question the will of God. Its not our choice to decide what is right and wrong. End the end God had a reason for it.


that's just stupid. a perfect being wouldn't need someone to give such a cop out, a perfect being would behave perfectly.



The bible is everything but primitive and straightforward. you have to read between the lines to understand everthing in it.


no, it is quite primitive and straightforward. it's about in the lower-middle of reading if you're going for cognitive difficulty. i'd say the works of kafka and shakey are far more enlightening



To be honest sometimes I think he's being a prick, and yes he does withold some knowledge. But its not our choice to decide what is right and wrong, or what we should know and what we should not.


um, so why do we have to live by rules that god won't follow?



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by slymattb

I don't have free will if your god knows what will happen to everyone from now till the end of time.


He might know what will happen but in the end its YOUR choice to do what you want. God never made you do anything.
Yes I know that I can do what I want because god does not exist. However according to you your god has the ability to know everything, so by that in creating me, knowing full well exactly down to the minutest detail how my life will pan out means that I am following a path set out by your god so all of my actions have already been predetermined therefore negating free will


God chose do things the better way other than forceing people to do things. Like I said he never made you do anything. God does have a bad temper. He shows he loves the world and the better way of life and they commit sin. Like the jews coming out of Eypt. God is love, but he has no love for the wrong.
Why did god chose to do things, why does god have a temper? Benevolence????


God man the man, the man makes the person. GOD GAVE YOU THE FREE WILL TO LEAD THE LIFE YOU WANT, he also gave you eyes and a mind to see the things around you. Every person on earth has free will. dont ever forget that.
Yes I know that I have free will therefore having no need for a deity.


Have fun haveing fun. Truth of the matter is life after death is a big gamble how you live it is your choice.
First off you would have to provide cast iron facts that life does indeed carry on after death, which by my reckoning it does not, therefore means nothings and "how you live it is your choice" - doesn't that go for everyone therefore again meaningless.

G



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 10:53 AM
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Responding to both of you is too much when your just saying the same things.

Just because God knows what the future holds does'nt mean you cant do what you want. God didnt make your choices he just knows what going to happen. Again its not like he knows everthing cuz you do make choices to which he does not want. you can change your own future. Free will. I cant exspress that more. God might know what going to happen, but things can change, To which God did not expet expect. Say what you want disbelieve all you want but that does not change who it watching you, nor will that change the day of Judgement. What can change is your way of thinking and your life after death. Free will, you dont have to change, you dont have to do anything you dont want to. But that still does'nt change the truth at the end of the day. Open your eyes look around you.

You both claim there is no God, your making a claim, without the proof. Your unstablizeing your own theory by your own laws.



posted on Jul, 25 2007 @ 11:21 AM
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well you know, if you believe in the bible then i guess you can admit that God is a murderer too!
"NO way" you say!
well then lets see:
1
the flood during the time of Noah (uhm yea the holiest of holies really drowned lots of people then)
2
the town of sodom and gomorrah (wow the almighty one really did some damage with all that fire and brimstone)
3
oh wait, and how about the all of the people that didnt put "lamb's blood" on their door (yep, you guessed it, the man upstairs and his spirit really got them good) not too mention the countless occasions when 'he' deemed it ok to kill defenseless animals!
i mean for christ's sake (pun intended), all these people worship a murderer!
there are many more incidents too!



posted on Jul, 26 2007 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb
Responding to both of you is too much when your just saying the same things.

Just because God knows what the future holds does'nt mean you cant do what you want. God didnt make your choices he just knows what going to happen. Again its not like he knows everthing cuz you do make choices to which he does not want. you can change your own future. Free will. I cant exspress that more.
Again with the contradictions, god knows the future but doesn't know everything.

God might know what going to happen, but things can change, To which God did not expet expect.
Again 'just because god KNOWS what the future holds' to 'god MIGHT know'. You cant make up your mind can you?


Say what you want disbelieve all you want but that does not change who it watching you, nor will that change the day of Judgement. What can change is your way of thinking and your life after death. Free will, you dont have to change, you dont have to do anything you dont want to. But that still does'nt change the truth at the end of the day. Open your eyes look around you.
Might be your truth but dont include me in your contradicting world of fairies. My life is fine without the need of any deity and will continue to do so. I'm sorry but you have no evidence whatsoever that what you claim is in fact truth other than your assumptions.


You both claim there is no God, your making a claim, without the proof. Your unstablizeing your own theory by your own laws.
How can we prove a negative???? Can you prove that beer elves dont exist? Or that they are actually god or the creators of god? Not only can you not disprove my claims but you cant even prove your own claims.


G
Edit to fix sp.

[edit on 26-7-2007 by shihulud]



posted on Jul, 27 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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Again with the contradictions, god knows the future but doesn't know everything.


Its not about contradictions, its about the truth. Life after death is a big gamable and who you spend it is up to you. Like I said God knows the way of life, and what YOU WILL DO. But its still you doing it, not him.


Might be your truth but dont include me in your contradicting world of fairies. My life is fine without the need of any deity and will continue to do so. I'm sorry but you have no evidence whatsoever that what you claim is in fact truth other than your assumptions.


Fairies are fairies, dreams are dreams. Truth is truth and stays living.


You both claim there is no God, your making a claim, without the proof. Your unstablizeing your own theory by your own laws.
How can we prove a negative???? Can you prove that beer elves dont exist? Or that they are actually god or the creators of god? Not only can you not disprove my claims but you cant even prove your own claims.

Just remember that. You cant prove your theory either. I could tell you to pray and keep a open mind and see what happens.



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