NGC: “The Templars”, How related is it to modern day Freemasonry?

I have a question for the masons on this site. I am not sure to what degree that this has been covered here before, but the National Geographic Channel is running a show this month about the Knights Templar, and toward the end of that show they eluded to the fact that Freemasonry is based on the original Knights Templars. They went so far as to show what appears to be a “Hoodwinking” in the sculptures of Roslyn Chapel. It also showed that the Temple Excavation of Mount Zion was preformed by the Templars, and the details of this excavation are a part of Freemasonry to this day.

I always assumed that Freemasonry simply made up its connection to the Knights Templar, ingested some of its procedures, and then named one of their subgroups after it. According to this show, they make it appear that all of masonry, starting at the first degree hoodwinking initiation is based on things relating to the Templars. I am not sure how much of this you all can discuss, and how much is not supposed to be public information, but I do have a few questions.

Is there a direct relationship between today’s Masons and the Original Knights Templars?
What are you all taught about the Temple Excavation?
What did they supposedly find according to Freemasonry?
What happened to the Treasures of the Knights Templars?
Does your order claim to know where any of that stuff is at today, or that you protect it?
Knowing that ML has mentioned Gnosticism being a part of Masonry, and that one of the supposed heresies of the Templars was worshiping Baphomet, which can be translated to Sophie, a deity in Gnosticism, is that the real reason the Templars were put to death?

I would like to find out how much of the supposed Templar/Freemason connection is an actual connection, and how much is simply Masonic Myth. Again I don’t know how much of that you all can answer, but I find it interesting stuff, and any answer would be appreciated.

Originally posted by defcon5
Is there a direct relationship between today’s Masons and the Original Knights Templars?

A direct relation, yes there is. How ever, it is not brought in until what is known as the "Red Lodge" or Royal Arch Mason degree. Which is an honorary degree above the first three. Even though todays Masons are by majority 'speculative', as being operative. What that means is they practive the principls, an not the actual old craftmnship of cutting blocks.

Also, some families have many generation who were masons, much like family tradition. some of those families even have direct blood lines back to the Templars and Crusaders of the period.

I would go into it more, but feel enough has been explained.

What are you all taught about the Temple Excavation?

That it has reveiled nothing exept signs, or so it is said.

What did they supposedly find according to Freemasonry?

"Supposedly", some informtion of value was possable found. But the history of hat has been obscurred by time, and perhaps intention.

What happened to the Treasures of the Knights Templars?

It was mostly distrubuted to the Knight Hospitalers, along with the estates and properties. Very little was retained by the remaning Templars, but what my have been kept, could have been of he most value.

Does your order claim to know where any of that stuff is at today, or that you protect it?

We only protect what is known, by attemptiong to keep some shroud of secrecy among the modes of regognition among Brothers. Other than that, nothing of old is maintained by the Lodges exept thing from past members and such. Nothing ancient is kept by the Masonic groups, unless it is an inner secret in and of itself.



Knowing that ML has mentioned Gnosticism being a part of Masonry, and that one of the supposed heresies of the Templars was worshiping Baphomet, which can be translated to Sophie, a deity in Gnosticism, is that the real reason the Templars were put to death?

Not at all, from what has been found in the old records, at a later time the charges againt the Templars was redacted, or removed by a Pope ( I do believe) at a later time. An apology was issed as well, stateing the Templars were a target of greed by the "percieved" influence they had, among the possable treasures found.

I would like to find out how much of the supposed Templar/Freemason connection is an actual connection, and how much is simply Masonic Myth. Again I don’t know how much of that you all can answer, but I find it interesting stuff, and any answer would be appreciated.

If you are truely interested, any an most local libraries should have sources. Not to mention almost every thing can be found via the interent. Another option, if you like, would be to simply find a local Lodge and ask.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Also, some families have many generation who were masons, much like family tradition. some of those families even have direct blood lines back to the Templars and Crusaders of the period.

Don’t the Templars themselves still exist as a separate organization? Are they related to the freemasons then as well, or was this some kind of split that occurred due to the persecution of the original Templars?
Which group has the true claim then, or do both?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
That it has reveiled nothing exept signs, or so it is said.

Can you elaborate more on these signs?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
"Supposedly", some informtion of value was possable found. But the history of hat has been obscurred by time, and perhaps intention.

I have seen everything from the "Holy Grail", to the “Arc of the Covenant” being mentioned as what they found, so there is no one item which is mentioned in Freemasonry, or you cannot elaborate on it?

Also one of the supposed heresies that they were accused of was worshiping a “silver platter with a head on it”, many take this to be the head of John the Baptist, any comment on that aspect of what was found?

Also who would intentionally obscure these facts, the organization itself, or the church?
I mean, lets just say that they did have the Holy Grail, why continue to hide it and not allow it to be placed in a museum as Masonic property?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Very little was retained by the remaning Templars, but what my have been kept, could have been of he most value.

What do most Masons think of the whole “Oak Island Money Pit” angle of the treasure being buried there?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
We only protect what is known, by attemptiong to keep some shroud of secrecy among the modes of regognition among Brothers.

So is the entire idea of secrecy within the masons related to keeping hidden knowledge from the Templars, or no?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Not at all, from what has been found in the old records, at a later time the charges againt the Templars was redacted, or removed by a Pope ( I do believe) at a later time.

I thought it was the King of France who persecuted the Templars, so how can the Pope exonerate them?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
If you are truely interested, any an most local libraries should have sources. Not to mention almost every thing can be found via the interent.

Yeah, but you should know the problem with that better then I do. Anything I find online about this topic would be denied by the members here, and according to them about 99% of what is online about the masons is not true, and made by fundamentalist groups who want to make them out to be evil. So I figured who better to ask then the guys on here to begin with.


[edit on 6/27/2007 by defcon5]

Speaking from my own perspective and understanding, I'll answer your following questions, but my statements are my own and not of the organization in and of itself. Meaning I'll represent my person and not the group in this dialogue.

I can't peak for the whole of the Lodges, but will reply as best able.

Lets see if I got this all straight.

Originally posted by defcon5
Don’t the Templars themselves still exist as a separate organization? Are they related to the freemasons then as well, or was this some kind of split that occurred due to the persecution of the original Templars?
Which group has the true claim then, or do both?

They don't exist in the sence, that they once did, in those days.
The Masons of those days were operative, meaning they did the stone work and such, sutting building the designs, engineers of the day. The people who became Knights may well have been skilled in masonry, but I don't see it as a split.

Any "true" claim, would be best settled with an understanding that there were not just one group. There were groups of the men who covered vast and different areas of responcibility. They had at one time enough members to patrol most of the route. Off shoots from an number of those patrols or members of, may have been encouraged to help preserve the Order. So, verify, and verify some more. True Lodges will awnser to a "Grand Lodge" of the State or region, depending on Country.

Can you elaborate more on these signs?

The signs could have been any thing, from coded messages, to records via symbols.

so there is no one item which is mentioned in Freemasonry, or you cannot elaborate on it?

Not that I know of, most of the stuff mentioned is not any item/s in particular, much of what there is, is "speculative".

Also one of the supposed heresies that they were accused of was worshiping a “silver platter with a head on it”, many take this to be the head of John the Baptist, any comment on that aspect of what was found?

That may be a debate of historical interest, but is more likely to be another made up charge by those persecutiing the Order.

Also who would intentionally obscure these facts, the organization itself, or the church?
I mean, lets just say that they did have the Holy Grail, why continue to hide it and not allow it to be placed in a museum as Masonic property?

I have no idea but, who would benefit from doing so, other than from keeping away from potential theft. I am unware of any artifacts under protection though. If they exist, they are in a vault under the Vatican, or some private collection.

What do most Masons think of the whole “Oak Island Money Pit” angle of the treasure being buried there?

I don't know, can't answer that one, not aware of anything about it. If I had to say some thing though, if it existed, as mentioned before. Items of the highest value, religiousl also, not just money wise, could have been stored any number of places. Also consider the concept of false leads. What better way to protect a "trust", than to spread rumors of hidden treasure.

So is the entire idea of secrecy within the masons related to keeping hidden knowledge from the Templars, or no?

No, the only secrecy, which isn't even very secret any more, are the modes of recognition, among members. This is to keep out false masons or eaves droppers. Or also to recognise a brother, simply that.

I thought it was the King of France who persecuted the Templars, so how can the Pope exonerate them?

Because only a Pope would have religious authority to clean the Knights slate. They under took a monks oath, they were warrior-monks, serving God. Not under commission of a King.

Yeah, but you should know the problem with that better then I do. Anything I find online about this topic would be denied by the members here, and according to them about 99% of what is online about the masons is not true, and made by fundamentalist groups who want to make them out to be evil. So I figured who better to ask then the guys on here to begin with.

There is good info out there, just look for sources with credited info. Official Lodge website, best bet would be to go to a Grand Lodge website, and start from there. Another thing, would be to find out as much from a library, and verifiy or background check via the net.

One bit of info, official "recognized" Lodges, will have a record kept by the Grand Lodge. For example, my Lodge is in Muskegon, Free and Accepted Masons of Michigan #140. That would be how they are kept in the books.

Originally posted by defcon5


Is there a direct relationship between today’s Masons and the Original Knights Templars?

Probably not, although no one really knows for sure. There were no Templar legends in Masonry until the 1720's when Michael Ramsay, a french Mason, gave a famous speech in which he claimed that Masonry was founded by medieval knights (he did not mention the Templars). But soon after this, new Templar degrees were popping up everywhere.

It is most likely the case that modern Masonic Templary is a revival of the old chivalric spirit rather than a direct successor.

What are you all taught about the Temple Excavation?

Nothing as far as the Templars go. The Royal Arch degree features excavation of the Temple, but the degree is set in the period of when Zerubbabel built the Second Temple.

What did they supposedly find according to Freemasonry?

Items deposited in a secret crypt built by King Solomon. This legend forms the basis of what is known as the Cryptic Degrees.

What happened to the Treasures of the Knights Templars?

No one really knows for sure. It is possible that all of it was found by their enemies. But then again, it's also possible that some remains hidden or buried.

Does your order claim to know where any of that stuff is at today, or that you protect it?

No. Masonic Templary does not claim direct lineal succession from the original Order, but only a restoration of it.

Knowing that ML has mentioned Gnosticism being a part of Masonry, and that one of the supposed heresies of the Templars was worshiping Baphomet, which can be translated to Sophie, a deity in Gnosticism, is that the real reason the Templars were put to death?

Probably not. Most historians agree that the Templars were persecuted so that the king of France could write off his debts to them.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by defcon5


Is there a direct relationship between today’s Masons and the Original Knights Templars?

Probably not, although no one really knows for sure. There were no Templar legends in Masonry until the 1720's when Michael Ramsay, a french Mason, gave a famous speech in which he claimed that Masonry was founded by medieval knights (he did not mention the Templars). But soon after this, new Templar degrees were popping up everywhere.

It is most likely the case that modern Masonic Templary is a revival of the old chivalric spirit rather than a direct successor.

Hello Masonic Light , long time no speak; I trust you are well.

The link that demonstrates some continuity between the Templars and the Masons is the presence to this very day of the letter G in Masonry.

G, as you may know, was a kind of ultimate observable password used by the Knights. (Also used by the Cathars.)

If the letter G is still manifest it means that at some point its original significance must have entered the Masonic symbolist vocabulary.

But I suspect that the implication of its meaning is no longer known in the States? Or maybe it was never known.

I'm certainly a Layman here, but I had thought Free Masons (my Uncle was and surviving Aunt still is involved with the order in BC) do exist and their brass have become a super-secret Society in Scotland, intermingled with their breach known as Roslyn Chapel?

My work in locating the Ark of the Covenant end between Axum Ethipia and within the buried cellars of Roslyn Chapel, in Roslyn, Scotland.

Read the history from Jerusalem to Ethiopia and the demise in France. But the money vanished.

Please correct me where you wish..would really like to learn more..

Dallas

Dallas, I think the best place to start looking for the Ark is the area described by the Copper Scroll. I understand that there is an intense archaeological search in that area right now. You might want to contact the teams involved, they may need volunteers!