Originally posted by antipigopolist
Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource
There appears to be quite a few judgements in the above response. Is this the ego building itself up at the expense of others?
Really, does it matter is someone decides to take their own life?
You can't be serious!? Yes, it matters if you care anything about your fellow person. Have a family member or someone you feel great love for take
their life and then tell me this garbage.
Ah so you don't realise that caring for another is selfish yet? Even after you gave that obvious example? Being concerned about anything is selfish,
because you "worry about the outcome", because you WANT the outcome to be as you WANT it to be, and try to selfishly CHANGE it if the outcome does
not PLEASE you. And to not accept reality as it is, is service to self. So it "bothers" you when something you don't WANT to happen, happens.
Especially true for your attachments (family members, "friends") - you are attached to them and so they are IMPORTANT to YOU (self), so it hurts YOU
(your self) if they were to "die" (be taken away from your SELF) - more selfishness, nothing else.
"Great love" in this case just means "great attachment". Would you prefer no one ever died? What's "wrong" with death? Objectively, nothing.
My respect for you is lost. That statement is disturbing to say the least. If this is how you truly think then I'm sorry for you as you are
completely devoid of humanity.
Just more subjective jibberish here. No one really cares about whether you respect them or not, the point is to seek to understand what is TRUE and
what is REAL, not to gain "respect" to maintain your ego, your "status quo" in the community. And so, that is meaningless, at least to me.
Disturbing is subjective, what disturbs you enlightens another. Subjectivity is illusion, and if you were truly interested in TRUTH, you'd understand
that very basic fact.
What is "devoid of humanity"? "Humanity" is undefined in this case, and I see that he is simply on a level of understanding that seems to be
beyond you at this time, and so your lack of understanding of what he's saying is causing your own ego-based programming to activate and begin to
accuse him of subjective junk. Instead of trying to maybe understand his point of view, putting in some EFFORT to critically think and contribute to
the conversation in some way, you resort to meaningless, subjective, junk.
Have you been appointed Godship and judgement rights on them (especially without really knowing them)? I don't want to change your viewpoint. I
respect it. But it appeared your response needed some balance so that's what I've tried to give.
Please notice that ShadowHasNoSource respects your view point - because that is what matters, not "respecting people" because of some "quality"
they possess. He respects your free will to choose any opinion you like. But seeing respect as having "admiration" for someone as an "outstanding
individual" or as having "humanity" or defining someone as a "great person" - that's subjective, and so is a complete waste of time. I
personally respect everyone, not because they are "great people" or are "humane", but simply I respect their free will to think anything they
wish, and have no desire to control or manipulate anyone's choices in any way. I may disagree with someone, but I don't resort to subjective
judgements. I am personally interested in objective reality, as things really are, not as my programming and illusions like to think they are.
Please don't be ridiculous. You have misrepresented what I have stated to make your point.
My point in a nutshhell so as not to be mistaken again:
"Truth" without proof is merely an opinion no matter how obscured by sociopsychological manipulation.
ALL truth is merely opinion, "proof" or no "proof". Anything anyone ever says is merely opinion, until you too can check and verify it and KNOW
it, and so now it is your opinion too! If I say 2+2=4 it is my OPINION, the only reason it is called a "fact" is because others have understood it
by their OWN EFFORT to understand, and once understood, it is now their opinion too. But anyone who does not yet understand it will only understand
through personal effort to understand, through critical thought. And so it is with all things.
People are so perplexed by this "truth" thing, where to find it, etc. Don't have to go too far... a little critical thinking goes a LONG way...
And speaking of which, it is apparent that you do not really "think", you are under the impression that you do, as most people are, but the thoughts
are not yours, they are programmed, they are fully controlled, and you are not aware of it, in fact, you are in complete denial. Don't worry, you're
by far not alone. As I mentioned already, we are conditioned NOT to think since birth, but to think that we do, to maintain an effective illusion.
We're ASLEEP, and most often even those who realise they are asleep and are waking up from the illusion, are only entering yet another dream, another
illusion, carefully created and maintained just for those who think they are awakening. The problem is not waking up, because we can be shocked into
awakening, the problem is remaining awake - because we have a strong tendency to fall right back asleep, unknowingly, but to continue telling
ourselves that we're now "waking up".
Think of all those New Agers, who think they "woke up" from mainstream religion to discover some "truth". They were gently put back to sleep by
more disinformation, by more lies designed just for such people who manage to break out of one box and suddenly think they found "the truth".
What you misrepresent as my "judgement rights on them" is merely your inability to read all of the posts and "connect the dots" to see from where
my statement was derived. Your "balance" therefore is uneven. Read the entire thread...read up on social engineering...then reread the manipulative
posts from lilblam....I was merely pointing out conflict and manipulation. This has nothing to do with ego building (as you so cleverly barb to add
strength to your view while diminishing anothers) and everything to do with pointing out someone's opinion being held out as "truth" conveniently
masked with psuedo-insightful rhetoric.
Pseudo-insightful eh? Insightful but... not so much?
Yet, it has a lot to do with ego building. Your very mention of "respecting someone as a person" suggests just how much your ego is involved in what
you say, and that suggestion is not subtle at all! Not even pseudo-subtle!
Jim Jones developed a belief called Translation in which he and his followers would all die together, and would move to another planet for a life of
bliss. Mass suicides were practiced in which his followers pretended to drink poison and fell to the ground.
Now, while the above is extreme, it represents an example of what happens when a false reality or opinion is held out as truth. Maybe this will help
some understand my point but I fear it will also breed more obfuscation.
[edit on 18-12-2004 by antipigopolist]
Yes but what makes this reality "false"? That's important - how one can arrive at the conclusion that this opinion is indeed false. And that is not
so obvious or easy to do, especially concerning anything that has to do with "after death" and the programming that this calls up in the minds of
people who try to think about it. You know that programming - the program that tells you "Ah well if humanity hasn't figured all this out in
thousands of years, what chance do YOU have?" which discourages any serious effort to figure it the truth of it. That's one of many programs anyway.
First, it is an assumption, as all beliefs are. Second, bliss is subjective - what is "heaven" to one is "hell" to another. If you acquire enough
crack coc aine to last you a lifetime (well until you overdose and die or something), THIS planet may be bliss too! But bliss on what level?
There are many parts to ourselves that desire many different things. One wants sex. Another wants money and material stuff. Another wants to be with
family. Another wants world peace. Another wants to understand the truth of everything. Another prefers "blissful ignorance" and creates its own
reality out of illusion. Another... etc.
Satisfying one may create "bliss" on that level, which may even permeate the whole beinf if you ignore all the other parts for a time. But then they
get your attention again, and you realise that's not "good enough" so you try something else. This is an onoing thing, it never stops, because
there is no limit to things that make you feel "good" on one level or another, and no limit to things that can make you feel "bad" on some level.
In fact, satisfying one often deprives another.
Case in point: Finding the truth about our reality shatters our illusions and beliefs, and it HURTS - because we are so attached to those beliefs, it
really hurts. But only for that one part that prefers illusion! Because on ANOTHER LEVEL you feel total joy, you are extremely happy, because that
part of you is happy to lose yet another illusion and gain insight into objective reality, even if that reality is uncomfortable!
And so, bliss can never be fully achieved "outside" of yourself, by going to another planet, or doing anything at all, it will always be only
temporary, and only partial - as it deprives another part of you of what it wants, and often those parts are contradictory so you cannot satisfy both.
Bliss (let's call it happiness) is achieved only within, when one accepts everything as it is, without judgement or desire to change it. There will
ALWAYS be death, suffering, pain, chaos, major changes, ignorance, lies, manipulation, etc. The universe is comprised of everything that could ever
possibly exist. Constantly trying to find that "thing" to make you happy, be it "love" (another grand illusion that we tell ourselves), or
"money", or "fame", or "sex", or "food", or whatever, will simply never succeed - we will forever keep trying, and our "happiness" will
always be temporary and partial as a result.
Why do I keep saying truth cannot be given? Well data can be given. Information can be given. But the only way to KNOW anything is to apply it, to
verify it, to critically think about it, to see it work, to UNDERSTAND it to the core of your being. So you have that "eureka!" moment of
realisation and understanding, where something turns from just information data into Knowledge with a capital 'K', which adds substance to your
BEing, your soul, your consciousness, and you grow as a result.
But then, a lot of data simply cannot be given. It must be observed, it must be experienced, and the accumulation of all the experiences then combined
and structured and analyzed in your mind, to create some "coherent whole", to connect the dots and see where it leads. Like the idea that America is
turning into a Nazi-like fascist dictatorship. This is as plain as daylight to those who can SEE it, and it is vehemently denied by those who don't,
who prefer comfortable illusion and "stability" of their own preferred world view, rather than to face a possible uncomfortable TRUTH that can
shatter their cherished beliefs about themselves and their "beloved country". But why can some SEE it and some cannot? How can those who see it
"prove it" to those who don't? If you could really "prove" it, would there still be people who don't see it? Like in the beginnings of Nazi
Germany, you couldn't exactly prove that Germany, in only a few years, would go from a democracy to a totalitarian police state. It was never ever
obvious, it took some serious observation and thinking and connecting the dots to SEE it before it happened. Those who did "got the hell out" of the
country, knowing what's coming, but unable to prove it to those who are blind.
The US economy is on the verge of a total collapse, very soon, and once again, you either SEE it or you don't. There are many factors that are
involved in such matters, the "puzzle pieces" exist in many different areas, that may even be related to one another in some abstract and
not-obvious way, and only when all the pieces are present do you begin to make sense of the puzzle, of the entire picture.
And THIS is the "nature" of many very important truths - the truths can only be discerned after many of the puzzle pieces are acquired by the seeker
and connected, many of those puzzle pieces ONLY FOUND after CRITICAL THOUGHT
, and do not exist anywhere outside of your own mind. The mind,
after all, is our tool for "reasoning", for "figuring out reality and how it works" - and it can also be our tool for "creating illusions" to
immerse ourselves in.
The data, the information, it all exists and is available to the public. The KNOWLEDGE, and the UNDERSTANDING, that is personal, that is only acquired
through connection of many dots and once again, CRITICAL THOUGHT and ANALYSIS of ALL THE DATA and INFORMATION. Understanding the nature of ourselves
and our reality ONLY comes from much effort on our part to figure it out, to understand it, to know it.
Like that simple example above, where I mentioned that "concern for another" is selfish (and so is concern for yourself). Empathy (ability to feel
what someone else is feeling) and sympathy (pity, judgement that their situation is somehow "bad" and needs to be changed) are not the same thing!
Either way, I tried my best to explain it, but those who are seeking to know already have those understandings, and those who aren't seeking, will
not "get" it and will think it's absurd and many "denial" programs will activate right away. So yeah, once again, truth just cannot be "given"
to anyone, it must be FOUND through effort and seeking and "thinking with a hammer" - and if you're looking for it, you WILL find it! Most people
aren't looking, and many tell themselves they are, but are still not.
And it takes time and effort to remove those pesky programs and conditioning that interferes with our thinking, that render us unable to truly THINK,
unable to perceive reality as it is. Because how can you "connect pieces of the puzzle", those pieces that you must acquire from observation, when
what you observe is skewed by your own programming, filtered through and turns into something else entirely by the time it reaches your mind? Which is
why we need to LEARN to see first, by doing what is called "The Work on self" - constant self-observation and constant effort to find and remove our
programs, which make us "mechanical" beings not in control of our own minds. It's not done overnight, and the more one does this, the more
significant this work becomes, and the more "clear" it becomes just how programmed and blind we truly are.
Hope that helps.
[edit on 27-12-2004 by lilblam]